Chicanos in population

[wattscrackin]

let me make it a little clearer for u, there is a difference between the indians

this land is NOT yours, it is the land of the indians that inhabitited before ese's wuz there, there were NO mayans living in california area, they lived more south in mesico, the north american indians lived on the california land, that is not ure ansesctors, mestizos r spanish and mayan indian , in the words of mangler "get it right you chump! rookies!" lolz

[Panik]

Impala.
I'm sorry, you're wrong. Like I said, read a book. The Mexican people were mostly in Sante Fe (now New Mexico), and they were under siege by the local indian tribes. it was not a minor skirmish, the indians wanted them dead, and off of their property. The mexicans ASKED the europeans and americans to come and help them in thier war against the indians becasuse the mexican army would not help them. And no, they are not the same thing. Maybe today the tribes of what is now america and the Maya,aztec, inca, etc. (as well as dozens of other tribes in the azrea of mexico that were slaughtered and enslaved by the more powerful and now more famous tribes) consider themselves brothers or whatever for poitical purposes and strength in numbers. But, back in the day they were just as much enemies as they were with the whites, in some cases worse enemies. Maybe back in the day they should have all joined together against a common enemy, but they had hhundreds of years of problems between each other and customs that were just as different from each other as from the europeans. They wanted no part of each other, and still fought amongst themselves while they were fighting the "whites". I know you would now like to think of history in a way that bebefits you, that there was one great indian nation, but back then, it was much like Africa today. So many tribes and differences, and tribal ahtered of each other, they were anything but "one people". They all suffered the same fate, that is the only thing about them that is the same. Remember, the only reason the spanish even made it out of mexico alive, and "conquered" the maya & incas was with help from neighboring tribes that had been slaughtered ansd enslaved for 100's of years. Yes, the Maya & Aztec were famous for slavery. They also had a class system much like India, where the lowest levels of society were all considered property. And any tribne that lost a battle with them was made into slaves for the Maya benefit, the Aztecs would just use them as human sacrafice. The spanish only had a couple hundred troops, but they conquered army's of tens of thousands only with help. Thousands and thousands of anti-maya and anti aztec indians rose up and they actually did the mjority of the killing as revenge for past wrongs. Like I said to rollin in my six four, read a book before you give your "opinions" of what you would have liked history to have been like. If the spanish never came, these major tribes would still be savagely killing and enslaving other indians to this day. And the only reason they didn't eventually kick the europeans out and continue with their slaughter of each other was because of one simple thing. Smalpox took out 90% of the people, and they no longer had the numbers to mount any kind of defense, or the numbers to sustain the large emplires they had built.

[Impala]

You both, wattscrackin... & Panik said sum sh_t that would anger a lesser man (read a book?!) (calling me chump?!) neither of you know me so it aint nothing but air. Your words are a drop in the bucket....so fu_k it.

I'll be clear with you's so there aint no misunderstandin'.

My Indian background is Yaqui & Purempecha a.k.a. Tarasco. My Yaqui roots from moms side is the border area of Northern Sonora, Mex and Southern Arizona U.S. We got familia sprinkled on both from sides Calexico/Mexicali to Nogales:Ariz/Sonora. The borders crossed my jefitas ancestral homelands.
My familia is also intermarried with Pima & Papago (Cali/Ariz border) We got familia all over the southwest including Pechanga & Soboba Res. here in Cali and the Gila River Res. outside Pheonix......
...SO WHEN I SAY THIS IS THE LAND OF MY GRANDFATHERS...I MEAN IT!THIS IS OUR LAND. There is an old saying"DO NOT LET ANYONE DEFINE YOU, DEFINE YOURSELF!"

wattscrackin, I gave a Maya And Abinaki example, two extreme geographic ends to make a point; Maya in Yucatan, the Abinaki up in Maine & Canada. NEVER SAID I WAS MAYA.

Who is 100% any race these days? There are but fewer and fewer...Mestizo is racial mix of Spanish & Indian. Fact, I didn't create that sh_t... it just is.

Panik, you gave me 1 example that's true. (Pueblo Indians Vs Mexicans in New Mexico) and for the record Indians and Spanish and Indians and Mexicans fought and Indian vs other Indians....BUT..like I said..COMPARED to the U.S. white gringos who took over the southwest and just started their vigilante, posse lynching, raping and exterminating non-whites...that's a big f'n difference! The rest of what you all said, I agree with.

I can understand why you vatos came off like you did but it aint no thing..just a chicken wing... on a string.

Impala

[wattscrackin]

well then ure case is obviously different then the rest of the ese's , but u talkin bout ureself as an individual, the majority of the ese population is not like u

[E`S`T]

All the brothers and carnales that post on this thread lets just remember that WE ARE HERE AND WE'RE HERE TO STAY! watts, no Hispanics want this land back..we're here and we are sharing this land with all races. There is no "push" or "surge" or "uprising" for Califas or the Southwest. This is our home. And if the gov't tries to send back all Mexicans, well that's gonna be really hard. Everybody needs to chill and remeber we are rooted here just like blacks, asians, and so forth. And if we did get sent back to Mexico, there would be NO good food left for anyone to eat. Right?..lol

[Panik]

Impala, there is always an exception to the rule. If you read my original post here, I said 90% of Mexicans were not Native American (from areas of the U.S.). Yes, you may have some blood from American tribes, but the huge majority of mexicans do not. There are more blacks and shites in the U.S. with Native american blood than there are mexicans. That is a fact. As for the slaughters of indians by the whites in America. Yeah, it was f'd up. Things like that that are done today by other countries will get them bombed by the U.S.. But in fact, in sheer numbers, the whites never killed nearly as many indians as did other indians, especially in the overthrow of the Maya and Aztec. These were not little tribes of a few hundred or a few thousand people like in the U.S.. These were cities of tens and tens of thousands of indians. There were days and sometimes week long killing sessions where 10 20 or 30 thousand or more indians were killed in one sitting. women, children, everyone. Some of the largest slaughters committed by the U.S. involved a few hundred dead. But anyway, that's not the point, I just wanted to clear that one up.

Anyway, my beef is not with mexicans as a people. My problem is with mexicans who keep talkin about taking their country back. Maybe wasn't you 2, but you know there;s a grip of 'em out there talkin about it, and don't know any of the history behind it. My problem is also with the way a lot of mexicans go about immigtrating here. I am all for immigration. I have vietnamese and chinese in my family, and on my moms side, her family came from Europe just 100 years ago through ellis island and they couldn't speak a lick if english, and they had their last name changed because it was too hard to pronounce.

But, other races have historically acted differently when getting to america. #1, most other races will try to get here legally. The U.S. already allows 150,000 or so Mexicans to come here legally every year. That is because that is how many the system can handle without falling apart. When 3 times this many come over, our gevernment programs can not keep up, so whatever area they settle in deteriorates. This is because these programs and services are paid by tax money, and illegals do not pay taxes. Take Santa Ana. There are almost 5000,000 people in the city. We're lucky if 250,000 of them pay taxes. This means that Santa Ana only gets enough money for 250,000 citizens. So, the schools get crappy, the streets get full of pot holes, the parks fall apart, and the streetlights go out. Then everyone gets mad and says that it's because these are minority filled areas, so the government doesn'tcare. But it onl,y happens becuase only half of the people living there are paying their fair share. They are forced to carry the other half that take money from our economy in cash so it's not taxed, then they send half their check back home to mexico, so we don't even get the sales tax on it. It dooms these areas to stay f'd up and get worse and worse. By doing this they are actually helping to bring down our areas to below US standards. If it doesn't stop, we will start to have the same social problems that Mexico has. And once it's the same here as it is there, where will the Mexicans go then for a better life? #2 Another thingwhen most other races get here, they make it a point to have their children learn english & go to school to learn the ways of this country. This helps the 2nd generation to get a better job than just a menial labor type job, and contribute more to society and to bring the surrounding areas up, not pull them down. In my experience, this seems unimportant to the average mexican immigrants (not all, but a big portion). I know plenty of mexicans that are 2nd and 3rd generation that still speak spanglish with a heavy accent. They can barely read and write legibly in English becasue they always speak spanish at home, and english as their 2nd language. Some schools even will teach kids in Spanish. This helps nobody. This just means that they will never get a job in mainstream american and will forever be at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to jobs. Again resulting in little or no taxes paid and a further drain on the system. When coming to america, the first priority hould be to become and american citizen, then to learn the ways and language of American as a whole. Otherwise, all you are doing is making america the same as the place that you left. A country full of poverty and corruption, where the only way to get ahead is to leave.

[E`S`T]

Panik you are way off on the whites killing Native American issues. Homie I am in History right now and were are studying the effects of "American Reformation" Just keep quiet. And second off, Mexicans do have Native blood in them, whether it be Aztec/Mayan/Centro American/Yucci Indian, etc, etc. You white people on the other hand have no true identity. Half-german, half-french,etc, etc. You ancestors probably havent been to their Motherland in a while. Yes or no? Because you know it and I know that it is rare for you white people to really trace your roots. So in that case, who is the "lesser known" raza here. Cause it sure isn't us..lol

[wcrockets]

Panik, well you know the European settlers/Americans took it from them originally so they look at it differently than someone coming in from Taiwan. I mean they have family here that's been here forever you know.

SamDoobie, many many white people can trace their genealogy back to their origin. Just go to Ancestry.com and see a billion names being worked on. It's true though that French married Irish, English married Dutch, German married Scottish, etc.. and then remarried each other all over again next generation. I don't see that as a problem. I also don't see as a problem Spanish marrying Mexicans. Honestly, I think if we all intermarried with each other there would only be one race; the human race.

We'd still have streetgangs in the world though. Race isn't the sole reason why they exist they are just organized around it (socially people tend to naturally group together by people group) and then that is built up as the drive for power commences.

[Panik]

I too have taken my share of history, cultural and physical anthropology classes. And like I said, Yes, the whites slaughtered many indians. But Most estimates put the number of Indians on soil that is now the U.S. at somewhere over 10 million. By the time the americans were actively fighting them, there were not even a million left. The battles (and slaughters) that Americans participated were just not as large in scale as were the battles and slaughters that happened before disease hace cut the numbers down so far. After the spanish first conquered, whole cities were killed. And these numbers were much higher that of the later dates.

As for legalizing everyone that is here? NO. This is rewarding people who broke the law and sneaked into the country. And they have already been taking advantage of our (U.S. citizens) tax money for years. I think that anyone that is here now illegally should be forever banned from being a citizen. Think of it a different way. Mexicans obviously have an advantage because they can just walk across the border and they're here. But what if it was that easy for everyone who wanted to come here. How would you like it if a half million africans poured into southern california every year and didn't contribute anything for taxes and other social programs. How would you feel about that? Like I said before, we already have laws that allow hundreds of thousands of people from all countries are allowed to come here legally every year. It isn't fair that people from other counties wait for years for the opportunity to come here legally to start their new lives, but just because mexico is close, they get to just do whatever they want. That is not the american way. Everyone should wait their turn. This will keep us on a teck to keep America a country that people will even want to come to. Otherwise, we will just continue downwards.

[Impala]

Examples of post American ethnic cleansing, slaughter and genocide.

Trail of tears: Forced removal of Cherokee, Choctaw and Chickasaw nations from Georgia, Alabama and Tennesee. 1 of every 3..died enroute. Thats 1/3 of these people.

1849 Gold discovered in California. Killing of Indians encouraged and enthusiastically pursued by Ca. White population.

Decimation of great American buffalo herds along with war of removal of compliant tribes and extermination of defiant tribes brings end to the great American Indian horse culture of the plains.

First documented case of "biological" warfare when U.S. Cavalry gives smallpox infested blankets to Mandan nation living along Missisippi river. The Mandan never recover and nothing impedes continued white colonization westward into the plains. The Pawnee were so awed by this that they immediatly became U.S. allies and scouts for the cavalry.

Turn of the century federal policy of forced removal of children from Indian homes to boarding schools where sexual abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, rape, neglect, cruelty, unusual punishment and suicide was rampant. Federal goal? Cultural genocide.

Should I go on??

Decimation of Indians has been the rule of thumb for White Europeans be they French, Spanish, English or any other Europeans since Columbus set foot in the Carribean. It is irrelevant to say it was worst with disease or before the U.S. or whatever. That's like saying Stalin wasn't as bad as Hitler or the killing fields of Cambodia aint as bad as Croatia and Kosovo? Extermination is slaughter, genocide plain and simple; physically, culturally and emotionally.

Tell me something..where are all the nations that once lived along the east coast; the Lenni Lenape? Narranganset? Mohican? Delaware? Pasamaquody? Other places..Where are the Mandan? The Caribe, the Taino? Gone...........all gone.

And as far as taking advantage of tax money...next time you sit down and eat; the salad was picked by farmworkers who have a high percentage of undocumented workers (not illegal, undocumented). If you're at a restaurant, chances are the bussers, dishwashers maybe even a cook or two might be undocumented. My point...these people come to WORK not to take advantage of anything but maybe just an opportunity for a better life. They work, they spend their earnings (sales taxes) and they contribute.

"Just because Mexico is close they get to do whatever they want". Think about what you just said; Mexico is close but they get to die of thirst in the Mojave and Arizona deserts, freeze in the mountains, drown in the Rio Grande and suffocate in hot trailers lacking any ventilation along the roads. Why? For a better life!.... they risk their lives for a better life!

And you know why they come? Because NAFTA has made their corn, vegtebles, fruit and other goods that they used to sell at market worthless. It's cheaper for the country to import Nebraska corn now etc. Their way of life STILL is continued to be decimated by the white power authority. Nothing left ...go north for a better life.

In all people there are good and bad but what these brave humble people give and are willing to give is far more than what they take or the bad of the few users.

It would of taken me forever to give refrences on the info I put but if you doubt my words I'll be glad to give you the proof.

Impala

[Panik]

I understand and know about all the instances that you mentioned, and many more. Yes Americans, and Europeans slaughtered indians, no doubt. My point is that before any of this happened, there were numerous instances of the same type of slaughter of indians, by indians. And in greater numbers. My point about the disease was that they were in greater numbers because there were just 10 to 20 times more indians here before we got here, so there were not the huge cities of indians around to be slaughtered. It doesn't make what the "whites" did any less horrible, I was just trying to make the point that they still didn't kill as many indians as did some of these larger indian states (i.e. aztec & maya). And, when the aztec and maya were overthrown and crushed, it was other indians that did most of the dirty work. The Spanish instigated it, but it was mostly indian on indian killing. This all just goes to my original point that all Native Americans are not the same. While they all now may claim brotherhood because it is politically favorable to do so, they were all too happy to kill each other off with the same aggression and heartlessnes as the "white's" did. And they continued to fight each other even as they were under attack from the Americans and Europeans. They only found peace with each other after they had all been pushed onto reservations or assimilated.
As for the biological warfare, not even close to the first time, or first documented. It was standard practice even thousands of years ago in Europe to poison well, rivers, streams, and cities under siege with plaugue, or whatever other easily spreadable disease was available at the time.
And as for the people dying en route to America while crossing the borders. It is a shame, but what do you expect us to do? let every single person in the world that wants to be an american just come over? THE WHOLE WORLD WANTS TO BE AMERICAN. They all want a better life, but we cannot accept every single person in the world. Our country would cease to exist. And like I said, then there would be nowhere for anyone to go. While mexicans die on the way here, the vast majority of those that try to get here do, and that is not fair to someone in a 3rd world country that wants to be an american just as bad or more than a mexican, but they have to apply and wait years to be accepted. They can't just walk across, and many of them have it worse in their countries than any Mexican could imagine. Our economy can only support a certain amount of people while keeping our same standard of living, and if people continue to pour in at this rate, it will eventually collapse. That is why we have a limit set on how many can come in legally. And while these people do spend some money here and some sales tax (much of their income gets sent back to mexico and is never spent here), that doesn't really help in the long run. The reason our roads, schools, public utilities are all falling apart is because they are paid from federal, state, and local taxes. Illigal immigrants pay nothing towards this, yet they get all of the benefits. There will come a time when we will no longer be able to fund our schools and hospitals, or keep our drinking water clean becasue only a certain percentage of the population is contributing to their upkeep. What will YOU do then. I assume that you pay taxes and work. How will you feel when the goverment can no longer keep a school open for your kids to go to, or if someone you know gets hurt they can't go to an emergency room, or you turn on your faucet, and the water isn't clear. Are you gonna pack up and find a new country to go to? There isn't another one like ours, so you'll just be fu--ed along with the rest of us.
And no, this isn't just a mexican problem, but they are by far the worst offenders, and the easiest to correct. One of the main problems is that any able bodied people that want to work come here. This leaves a shotage of people in Mexico that will be able to start new businesses and actually help their economy. As long as the best and hardest workers leave their country, their economy will continue to get worse and worse. Somebody has to stay behind and try to make Mexico a place that people would want to live in.

[wattscrackin]

thats true about ese's comin here, but also about the indian thing, i think the whites tricked the indians into killin each other just like they have tricked blacks into killin each other, white people r very sly in that regard....

[wcrockets]

^^ Mr. know it all. lolol.

[1OldSchool]

"Panik: As for legalizing everyone that is here? NO. This is rewarding people who broke the law and sneaked into the country. And they have already been taking advantage of our (U.S. citizens) tax money for years. I think that anyone that is here now illegally should be forever banned from being a citizen."

I dont agree with that statement. Most laws are for the benefit of certain people and to hide behind. If anyone that should be banned for being on this soil illegally it should be just about every white man in this country. I believe the southwest was stolen as well as the rest of this usa, and mexicans or anyone native american should be able to come and go as they please. People can say Mexicans are spanish and mixed and this and that but Most have native blood period. The main reason there is such a high influx of mexicans and other immigrants is because they want to make money because their homeland is fuc]{ed by the corporations and greed. This land and many have been and is being raped by the false american dream of freedom and democracy.

[Panik]

old school, I think you should read the rest of my posts on this topic. I allready spoke on the points that you are trying to make.

[wcrockets]

If I had to sum it up, I'd say we whites bum rushed em first and now it's payback time. Lol... heh.

[Impala]

Damm straight!

[TheReal]

What do african american gangs and african amerian people in general think about the incease of chicano people in L.A and the talk of Chicano's taking back California for the Chicano people.

*Why should you care, evil, racist, mexican devil?

[Panik]

wcrockets and impala, I think you're both missing my point, and have just made the same comments that caused me to put my first post on the subject. bottom line, you can't take something back that you never had in the first place. impala, read from the beginning or go back to school.

[wcrockets]

You made a concise post Panik. I'm just goofing on a bumrush joke I hear the other day.

[1OldSchool]

Some info..

"The Hispanic Population Myth"

Contribution by
Kurly Tlapoyawa
National Representative of the Mexika Eagle Society

"This article has also appeared in the Fort Worth Star Telegram and Houston Chronicle".


For years now, so-called demographic experts have been telling us that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority group in the United States, with an estimated population of around 31 million people. Whether this ridiculously overblown estimate is part of a calculated misinformation campaign or merely the result of ignorance on the part of demographers is beside the point - because its utterly and completely wrong.
When the enlightened folks at the census bureau decided that it was their right to label (or more accurately, mislabel) people according to racial heritage - they instituted a practice which many in the Indigenous (“Native American”) community refer to as demographic genocide. This is the act of erasing entire racial groups by simply defining them out of existence. Sound a little far fetched? Consider this - with a mere stroke of the pen, government bureaucrats have managed to demographically eliminate more Indigenous people than even the conquistadorks themselves. While the tactics employed by the census bureau certainly differ from those of the Spaniards, the end result remains the same. And if you happen to be of Native blood, there is something truly sinister about a government agency telling you that your race no longer exists by re-defining you as white (Hispanic is a word which describes white Europeans who trace their roots to Spain)
If we take the supposed “31 million Hispanics” and bother to classify these individuals in regards to their true racial ancestry, heritage and culture - we would find that it is the Indigenous community, NOT “Hispanics” who carry the greater numbers. A little simple mathematics will bear this out: Chicano-Mexicanos comprise 65% of the alleged 31 million Hispanics, yet the ethnic background and cultural heritage of Chicano-Mexicanos is overwhelmingly Indigenous and most definitely not “Hispanic.” Our people are the Mexika, Maya, Chontal, Mixteka, Otomi, Raramuri, Totonak, Yaqui, Apache, etc., and we deserve to be recognized and respected for who we are.
In fact, 85-90% of the Mexican population is of Native blood (the word “Mexican” itself is Indigenous - not Spanish). If we account for this, the Hispanic population drops considerably, while the Indigenous population rises by around 17 MILLION people. And If we add to this number the 2.4 million “American Indians” already identified as living wthin the United States, the Indigenous population soars to nearly 20 million people. Now THAT is a powerful population base - and a reality the census bureau would rather ignore.
Keep in mind, this isn’t even taking into account the countless Central and South Americans who have been unjustly mislabelled as Hispanics. Nor is it considering the many Blacks and Asians who are being misrepresented by the Hispanic label as well. If we take all of these factors into consideration, I would venture to guess that the actual Hispanic population in the United States is far less than 5 Million people - if even that.
In an attempt to counter the destructive practice of demographic genocide, Indigenous scholar and UC Davis professor Dr. Jack D. Forbes has recently called upon Chicano-Mexicanos and Central Americans to identify themselves as Native people on all future government documents -including the recent 2000 census. By doing so, Native people can reclaim the right of self-identification and proclaim to the world that our people are still very much alive. If Chicano-Mexicanos and Central Americans wish to be involved in a struggle which truly reflects our cultural heritage and values, we should unite ourselves with other Indigenous nations rather than seek acceptance through the assimilation oriented “Hispanic” cause with it’s hollow goals and promises.
By remaining silent and allowing a group of pencil pushing bureaucrats to wipe us out by defining our very existence - in effect accomplishing what the Spaniards couldn’t do in over 300 years of slavery, rape, and genocide - we dishonor our ancestors who bravely resisted European imperialism. Ancestors such as Kuauhtemok, Popé, Tupak Amaru, Koatlawak, Zapata and the many other warriors who fought and died so that our people would never have to submit - so that we would never have to call ourselves ”Hispanic.” And at a time when violence against Chicano-Mexicanos is running rampant, with law enforcement agencies and private citizens taking turns hunting our people down like animals along the border, we need to remember who we are and where we come from. So stand up and say it loud - I’m brown and I’m proud!

[Panik]

Hey old school, you just proved my point for me thanks. For political reasons the "native people" like to consider themselves all one people. That is what I've been saying. The truth of the matter is that you are not, and never were "one people" until the last 100 years. You were many different poeple that didn't get along with each other, killed, raped, enslaved each other. And one more time. The natives of the area which is now the United States are not in any way the same as the cultures and people that were native to the area now called Mexico. You only say that now for a political power base. 80% of mexicans have native blood (inca, aztec, maya, etc) None of these people EVER called the area of the United states their hom, so hey have no more right to claim it as their land than I do. I am tired of arguing this over and over. If anyone were to have any rights to this land, it would be the original tribes that inhabited the area, and unfortunately, most of them are gone. The ones that are left are on reservations, but they are gaining power becasue of the ability to have gambling. BUT, this has nothing to do with the majority of the mexicans who claim "native blood". In the old days, before the whites were here if y'all had tried to come up here, the resident tribes would have shot you full of arrows (and they did try) becasue Y'all are not brothers.

[Panik]

P.S.
All I'm trying to do is to get you to remember who you are and where you come from. It was south of what is now the border. Don't try to rewrite history just to justify illegal immigration. You have no more rights to the land than Mf'ers from Norway who came here 600 years before columbus.

[TheReal]

P.S.
All I'm trying to do is to get you to remember who you are and where you come from. It was south of what is now the border. Don't try to rewrite history just to justify illegal immigration. You have no more rights to the land than Mf'ers from Norway who came here 600 years before columbus.

*I agree!

[Impala]

I disagree.

"impala, read from the beginning or go back to school."

Look ese, you got your opinion and I got mine.
I don't think either of us has Phd.'s on this subject so it's just opinions.

Getting personal and talking sh_t is a whole different matter.
If I insulted you or you think I did at any one time then my bad because it wasn't my intention.
Unless you want to meet me personally, I suggest you keep it real and leave the sh_t talking to the mocoso punk net bangers.

I don't know you and you don't know me so let "respect" stand between us.

Impala

P.S. I aint no kid.

[Panik]

you can disagree all you want, but that still will not make history change. I agree, sometimes it is nice to be igorant, then you can just go around believing whatever makes you feel good. But one of these days you might just have to find out the truth. I hope it's soon.

[Impala]

Ignorant huh?

You seem intent on building fences when my point is knocking them down. One continent, North America. One race Indigenous (Native, Indian..whatever). Many cultures from Eskimo to Caribe.

Government and nationalism comes into play and creates borders. This is reality and these Govt.s (power authority) based from European (white) colonial roots.
Outcome the haves (whites) the have nots (non-whites).
I'm not prejudiced just talking about reality in general terms.

You're down at the micro level looking at differences between the non whites (mainly the North American Indigenous people) to justify your point of view. And if I understand your point of view correctly is that those south of the border have no rights to anything north of the border and that the Indigenous from the north are in no way related to those in the south and in fact hate/resent them to some degree.

You are probably Black (African-American). Have a history of resentment toward Mexicans and Chicanos and this point of view makes YOU feel good and justifies your OPINION.

Still think I'm ignorant ese? Still want me to go back to school?

One more thing, look around whenever you go out for a drive or whatever and observe the names of places. Santa Ana, Los Angeles, Palos Verdes, Las Cruces (NM), Colorado, etc. Same type of names south of the border.
Foods, people, names,...etc.
A man made (imaginary line) Govt. border comes along and divides the land politcally and all of a sudden according to you there's this HUGE difference between the people.
WHAT?!
EXCUSE ME?!
And I'm not just talking about Mexicans but Indians as well and all the folks in between that have blood from both races to one extent or another.
And what is a Mexican again? But a race of Indian and Spanish mixed in the first place.

But NO, according to you and your view of reality and history; theres a BIG difference between the folks north and south of the border. And animosity exist between Mexicans and Indians, and Indians and other Indians..etc.

Are you afraid of reality dude?

[Panik]

Yes to both. And no, I'm not black. I got a couple homies that are eskimo (innuit) and they don't consider themselves related to the average native american. As for building fences. I'm only trying to explain something that you seem unable to compehend, or admit. There were "fences" up way before the europeans ever got here. The native americans from above the border hada completely different culture ( smaller semi nomadic tribes) than those below the border (large scale cities with fuedal governments much like europeans of the time with kings and nobles and peasanst and slaves). Thay had nothing in common except for the fac that at one point 10 - 15,000 years ago they were all mongolian and chinese and waled over here. Since then they eveolved different religions, government systems and beliefs. And they did not get along. they had very little to do with each other, and they didn't want anything to do with each other. The cultures from south of the border like I said were much like the governments of europe and specialized in killing and enslaving any smaller tribes within reach. women, children and all. The oonly difference between them and the europeans then was guns and smallpox. If it weren't for these 2 things, the aztec would still be tossing the lesser thought of tribes off of cliffs or cutting their hearts out for fun, and the mayans would still be making them all slaves. Don't get all high and mighty now. Yeah it was f'd up, but they weren't any better than the europeans, and they would have done the same thing the spanish did if givin the opportunity. And they NEVER would have lived side by side peacefully with the natives that inhabited what is now the U.S.. This is not racist or predjudice, this is HISTORICAL FACT. quit arguing and READ SOMETHING. Then get back to me. As for the black comment, you're probably just mad because there are more Black Americans with native (U.S. territory tribes) blood than there are mexicans with it. I'm sure that hurts, but that is also a fact.

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

I don't think revolution is an option. Right now, there are no countries waging war on another (unless you count the US/IRAQ) as part of any imperialistic campaign. True, you can't change history...whatever version you want to believe. Today we got a problem of too many "crabs in a bucket" (no disrespect to any rips, this is just a phrase). With all this overcrowded, overpolluted bodies in a bucket, conflict is bound to happen. But you all need to realize is that bucket was built by someone to cause all this. Why live in a bucket when there is so much more else out there?

You cats will be arguing time and time over the topic of boundaries and racial lines, just like scholars. But today, you ain't nothing but a wetback and you ain't nothing but a gook living in the Southland. No disrespect intended, but get a grip of the bigger picture. I think both you cats have respectable points of views/arguments. But there is no need to get personal or what not.

[Panik]

actually dusty, I'm white. It's just that when I was young I went to school with nothing but vietnamese. I also got viet and chinese cousins so I got put on some little hood out in little sai. in my late teens, I ended up in an area that was mostly black, and always had black homies, I got into it with some of the asians over that and basically gave em the bird. Been from a black gang ever since. But, I have still tried to keep myself educated by reading anything I get my hands on, and have taken some cultural anthropology and physical anthropology classes in college, history too. that stuff ust always interested me. I just try to tell it how it was for those that have never read a book and just go by what their homies/relatives tell them. Not trying to make a big deal out of it, but seriously, these couple guys that are arguing with me have no idea about actuall history, they are just going on heresay. I just want everyone to stop posting opinions as fact. just cause you want it to have been one Nation before the whites got here and screwed everything up doesn't make it true. It was always screwed up, the europeans just got the upper hand in it. luck of the draw. that doesn't mean that you can make up stories about how the native peoples acted, and lived, just to make your position better today.

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

ahhh...so your actually the white devil...LOL...

[Panik]

that's me. LOL. yeah I'm the klans poster child.