shadoworder wrote:
Perhaps today rightwing doesnt mean racist,but at that time in the 60s i would definitely say it did.
I'll have to beg to differ w/ you - to an extent. I can be said without a doubt, Skins (or any other White working class Brit) would not warm to the idea of one of the Blacks in the neighborhood dating his sister (or any other neighborhood White girl). The prevailing attitude at the time (not just with Whites, but Blacks too) was to "stick with your own". However, if they were really that racist, then why was their music of choice Ska (pre-Rasta) Reggae? A musical style still as visibly associated w/ Blacks as was Soul? Like I've said before, it was more with the individual than the whole subculture. It should also be said that the attitudes of most Whites in the 60s could be labeled as "racist" by today's rigid PC standards (I won’t even go into the PC thing – you know what I’m getting at).
shadoworder wrote:
Because at that time their was a huge and very visible influx of pakistanians coming into Britain,and after some time they did start to attack Blacks too,in 1970 their were widespread attacks against blacks by Skin gangs in Liverpool.
I hear what you're saying here, yet I wonder if the attacks were turf or soley race related. That was also one city. I'll have to look into that - not in an attempt to disprove what you’re saying but because it’s interesting.
shadoworder wrote:
Well what is Skinhead style??Its boots,its braces,its shaved heads LOL
Ive seen SHARPS try to claim that jamaicans sported shaved heads and boots and thats where the look comes from which is rubbish.as for skins who wore suits at night to go dancing,its debateable how many skins did that and if that had anything at all to do with rudeboys,remember skins evolved out of the Mods who wore suits and fashionable clothes to go out dancing all night too.
rudeboy style is basically a Jamaican pisstake on 40s gangster movies and 50s italian style.
not all skins in the 60s were into soul and reggae either,a lot still listened to the Who,Faces,Slade etc,etc.
Ok - Until I look into it deeper by doing some research using non-standard/non-biased sources (in other words no SHARP, NS, or other agenda driven sources with a political agenda), I'll have to give you this one. I'm going by what Trads & Ska Skins used to tell me. I was told was that Skins sported boots and braces by day (on the terraces, on the streets) and suits by night. I was told those suits were influenced by Jamaican rude boys. Funny thing, I remember a friend mistaking a Ska/Traditional Skin for a Rudie only to end up receiving a history lesson (“educating the freschcuts”) of sorts from another Trad (who used to get on our cases about hardcore music and SxE style hooded sweatshirts).
shadoworder wrote:
your point about infiltration is correct,however i have seen SHARPS use that phrase as part of their ridiculous grand conspiracy of how the nonracist,nonviolent,freedom loving skins became snarling racists.
My point is that the original Skins were already so close to being hard right/nazi and that it didnt take much to go from point A(Trad 60s Skin) to point B(NF/WP skin)and if it was simply recruitment and nothing else,the NF wouldve done the same with the Punks,Metalheads etc,etc and they didnt.
Wattie supposedly is the head of the Scottish chapter of Blood and Hounour LOL.
I think we're somewhat on the same sheet of music on this one but differ on how the riff should be played (muted or unmuted, all chords or mostly single string). I couldn’t agree with you on the point about false claims of Skins being these peace loving nice guys. That has never been the case at any point in Skinhead history. Even those who made it point to avoid unnecessary trouble, wouldn't hesitate to "put in the boot" if the situation called for it. I mean, these guys were the ones raising hell at Soccer matches! In fact, there are plenty of Football thugs who earned their terrace stripes as Skinheads.
The main attraction for Skins during the late 70s (this is more opinion than fact) to the NF was the patriotism and nationalism (not to be confused w/ the Jingoism taking place in the US today) of which racism can definitely play a role.
Combine those attitudes w/ coming from the slums ("living on the dole") and instances of “one law for them but another on for us”, recruitment would have been "a snap" for the NF. When things aren’t going well, you’re more inclined to listen to those who have the answers or at least seem to (that’s my personal experience so it won’t apply to the whole).
Stil, I must reiterate there were many Skinheads at the time (late 70s & early 80s) didn’t have time for the NF, B&H or the far left but were still down for being British. The Business weren't alone with the sentiments expressed in "The Real Enemy".
Wattie . . . lol! What can be said about that guy? Wattie was supposedly NF too, but was also yapping about Anarchy. He even had some rasta chick (Rasta Deb) doing back up vocals on “Sexual Favors” from the “Death Before Dishonour” album. LOL!
On a side note (concerning Wattie), did he really chase Jello Biafra w/ a hammer? Someone told me that and the mental visual is just to funny to be true.
shadoworder wrote:
True,its a matter of opinion.I base it on the enormous numbers of new bands,labels,gigs and sites popping up all over the place,and the very large numbers they enjoy in Europe(50,000 WP skins in Russia alone??)plus the fact that their are different factions claiming Skinhead who are WP,for example people into black Metal and Gabber Techno.whatever the case actually is,the number has increased dramatically in the last ten years and shows no sign of declining.
I hear you loud and clear on this one. I almost forgot about the NS Skins in Russia. They're almost like world unto themselves. In places like St Petersburg, the NS Skins roll in the hundreds (based on pics I've seen). Talk about “rollin’ deep”. Honestly, I think their NS Skin scene may evolve into another subculture which will be uniquely Russian. Subcultures and gangs are a fascination of mine so it is interesting (as well as disturbing to myself) to see what’s taking place in not only the former Soviet Union, but in all former Communist Block countries in Eastern Europe.
In the US and other Western European countries it’s really hard to tell whos’s deeper – especially when you have WP Skins going into Rockabilly and Non-racist Skins absorbing into HC or other styles.
Oh, the Black Metal thing – it seems every NSBM band from Poland is Skinhead related (Capricornus comes to mind). I haven’t looked too much into Gabber although I am aware of it (all I really know is Rotterdam Terrorkorps and they seem pretty apolitical – mislabeled files on Kazaa notwithstanding.
All in all, thanks for replying. I'm suprised this discussion hasn't degenerated into insults (something very common online) despite our differering views.
Ciao!
