Do Blacks dispute that Mexicans originated LA gang culture??

These concepts are socially constructed and have been given much weight. What are your thoughts?
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Do Blacks dispute that Mexicans originated LA gang culture??

Unread post by The Panch » June 3rd, 2007, 12:42 pm

Not a do, but more like why do so many of em?? Im not trying to say like its anything to brag about but during the midst of black/brown issues in SoCal, alot of times you have blacks trying to shit on Mexicans as a whole and their culture when the reality is, almost all of this L.A. gang culture started with the Chicanos. From the combining of white tees, khakis, dark shades, and using old english lettering to rep their sets, to Surenos wearing blue rags in the pen and Norte wearin red in contrast, and of course the lowriders. That was all Chicano culture before anyone jumped on it. And it was probably the White Fence of Boyle Heights who were the first street gang, but some would debate Maravilla.



My thing is, Mexicans basically created almost all the gang culture that's lasted til now and at the same time, blacks have had big influences in their Chicano culture as well. Pachucos who originally wore Zoot Suits, black jazz clothing, started the culture and the whole "Smile Now, Cry Later" mindframe came from a Smokey Robinson song and West coast gangster rap played a huge part on influencing L.A. Chicanos to rap as well as the late Roger Troutman getting his voice box on. I wonder dont any of these folks like Snoop, who himself used to rap fantasy stories about shanking eses, bring this to the forefront to make L.A. Black and Brown understand they basically built this L.A. G thing together. The Mexicans did the street culture and the Blacks did the musical aspect of it. It just seems to me like since its the gangs doing the killings, maybe both sides could get their ass put in check instead of fools blaming illegals when the vast majority of L.A. ese's backs arent wet.

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Unread post by The Panch » June 3rd, 2007, 12:52 pm

I wanna point out that one of the reasons I made this thread cause I saw a YouTube interview with the homie Alex Alonso, being questioned on the origins of gangs monitoring L.A. hoods, no disrespect, and he skipped right to the early 60s as if Mexican gangs hadnt been doing that exact same thing for almost half a century.

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Unread post by NICKELS » June 3rd, 2007, 3:55 pm

MEX AND BLACKS BORROWED FROM EACH OTHER .....BUT BLACKS ARE MORE INFUENTIAL / POPULAR

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Unread post by The Panch » June 3rd, 2007, 10:23 pm

NICKELS wrote:MEX AND BLACKS BORROWED FROM EACH OTHER .....BUT BLACKS ARE MORE INFUENTIAL / POPULAR
That has nothing to do with Los Angeles street life which is the total opposite of what you say. All these other races are imitating what Chicano gangs started.

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Unread post by The Panch » June 3rd, 2007, 10:25 pm

NVM, I just read your post in another thread and its obvious you have a hatred for Mexicans so you're opinion is irrelevant.

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 4th, 2007, 11:31 pm

Weren't no tv's or cell phones or computers back in the old times. Make no mistake, the Cholo style, as a finished product, is all Chicano.

Anyway, here's a link, that includes basic history, pics, and facts, as to how it became what it is today.

Image
The First House in the City of LOS.


LOS

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Unread post by The Panch » June 5th, 2007, 2:18 am

I dont understand your post. I cant tell if you trying to make fun or make a factual statement.

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Unread post by MARTINEZ » June 5th, 2007, 11:36 am

The Panch wrote:I dont understand your post. I cant tell if you trying to make fun or make a factual statement.
Its a fact.

The flicka is from LA PLAZITA OLVERA in DOWNTON L.A.

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 5th, 2007, 9:39 pm

The Panch wrote:I dont understand your post. I cant tell if you trying to make fun or make a factual statement.
Make fun of what?

Far as the post, you do the math, you draw the conclusion. It ain't hard to figure out.

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Unread post by mnjmc » June 5th, 2007, 10:53 pm

Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:Weren't no tv's or cell phones or computers back in the old times. Make no mistake, the Cholo style, as a finished product, is all Chicano.

Anyway, here's a link, that includes basic history, pics, and facts, as to how it became what it is today.

Image
The First House in the City of LOS.


LOS

HAHA. Nothing but pictures of people before their coward ass children called themselves chicano.

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Unread post by mjokc » June 5th, 2007, 11:08 pm

The Panch shut the fuck up you stupid bitch


Black gangs were started in the 20s and 30s in direct defense from the white gangs. nobody was worried about what no damn mexicans were doing. And as far as the red n blue rags, first of all those were handed out in PRISON for the northern and southern mexicans. Blacks were the first to take red and blue rags and identify on the STREETS. And once again the blacks actually CHOSE to wear the red and blue rags. the mexicans had the rags offered to them by prison guards. Once again in case you can't read since 78% of your people can't speak or read english. Black gangs were formed to bang on the racist ass white boys. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fuck outta here with that mexican power shit fag.

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » June 5th, 2007, 11:58 pm

"African-Americans first formed street gangs in the late 1920s and early 1930 on the Eastside of Los Angeles near Central and Vernon Avenues. They were also forming clubs in the downtown area of Los Angeles where they first settled around the same time. During the years to follow, African-Americans began to move south from downtown Los Angeles, down Central Avenue towards Slau son Avenue. The area between Slauson Avenue and Firestone (Manchester), during the 20's and 30's was occupied primarily by white residents, but just south of Firestone, African-American populations were growing in Watts between 92nd Street and Imperial.

During the 1920's and 30's, some of the Black gangs that were active in Los Angeles were the "Goodlows," "Kelleys," "Magnificents," "Driver Brothers," the "Boozies," and the "Blodgettes" which hung out in an area off the Imperial Freeway known as the "Blodgette Track," where the 105 Freeway is today.

The "Boozies" were a family of many brothers and friends who were involved in prostitution and robbery. The guys frequented the Jefferson Park area on Los Angeles and hung out on Denker Avenue. The "Magnificents" were a group of youths from the Central Avenue on the eastside of LA. Eventually these gangs faded in the late 1930's as the youths became older. Gangs during this time were strictly juvenile in nature, and those reaching their late teens distanced themselves from the gang." - Streetgangs.com

The Black gangs of the 20's and 30's were not formed "in direct defense from the white gangs" nor were they "formed to bang on the racist ass white boys."

Next,

"In the late 1940s clubs in the Black community were gaining popularity. Some were early attempts at political organizations but several clubs were formed as protective mechanisms against White violence from the white clubs of the time. Because of the increased migration of Blacks from the South during WWII, White residents developed a resentment towards the new migrants. Some of the Black clubs that formed were involved in petty theft, robbery and assaults, but murder was extremely rare. Weapons of choice were chains, bats, and occasionally knives, and disputes were mostly settled by hand to hand combat. The peak period of these groups occurred during the early 1960s and identifying these Black youths as "gangs" was started by the Los Angeles Police Department. The car clubs were also associated as gangs. The car clubs dominated through out the 1950s, and some of the popular car clubs in Los Angeles during that time were the "Low Riders" the "Coasters" the "Highwaymen" and the "Road Devils."" - Streetgangs.com

So some black gangs in the 40's and 50's were formed as protective mechanisms against White violence.

As for bandanas, In the 1950s and early 1960s, as northern gang members filtered into the prison system they organized for protection from Eme creating La Nuestra Familia. To identify themselves, the gangs used bandannas purchased in prison commissaries. They came in two colors, red and dark blue. The northerners chose red and the southerners purchased blue bandannas. As they were released they were the first to fly those colors on the street. Afterwards, Crips and Bloods from Los Angeles also began flying colored bandannas with the Crips first taking on blue and the Bloods then taking on red.

And literacy is defined as the ability to read and write over age 15. Mexico's literacy rate is 92.2% as of 2003 and about the same in the USA for Mexican-Americans.
mjokc wrote:The Panch shut the fu-- up you stupid bitch


Black gangs were started in the 20s and 30s in direct defense from the white gangs. nobody was worried about what no damn mexicans were doing. And as far as the red n blue rags, first of all those were handed out in PRISON for the northern and southern mexicans. Blacks were the first to take red and blue rags and identify on the STREETS. And once again the blacks actually CHOSE to wear the red and blue rags. the mexicans had the rags offered to them by prison guards. Once again in case you can't read since 78% of your people can't speak or read english. Black gangs were formed to bang on the racist ass white boys. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.

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Unread post by NICKELS » June 6th, 2007, 12:18 am

HEY PAUNCHO SUK BLACK BALLS ....IS THAT THOROUGH ENUFF FOR YOU , BLACK LOVE ALL DAY , WE LEAD YOU FOLLOW . GET IT

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Unread post by perongregory » June 6th, 2007, 12:55 am

an ex cop that worked on that prison shit back in the day said the blue and red bandanas actually came way later (for mexicans), that the dates have been confused and twisted by rumors.

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 7:22 am

Black gangs in L.A. started the modern day gang culture in L.A., that many surenos have adopted! Now mind you, I will admit that cultures that live in close proximity to one another, will borrow from off of each other, HOWEVER, to claim that everything black folks have, especially in regards to west coast, or gang culture, coming from mexicans-IS BS!!

It was pachucos who got their style of dress (zoot suits), music, walk, certain street slang, hand significations, attitude and the like-FROM BLACK CULTURE DURING THE 30'S, AND 40'S.

And remember, it was black folks who began to call "ramflas" LOWRIDERS, NOT MEXICANS!!

Furthermore, if you want to check out how old school cholos dressed back in the day, on up until 95, just check out old photos, and movies from back in those days. Back in the days, mexican sureno or gang bangers, would primarily dress in earth tone colors (e.g. beige, brown, white, black, etc.), whereas black gang bangers, if they were crips, would be togged down in blue, while upholding the blue rag, as some type of banner.

Just check out movies like "Colors" and see the differences in how ese surenos dressed, and how the crips and the bloods dressed. There may have been some similiarities, but you can't deny the cultural flourishes and textures that black folks incorporated into their own style (especially that of the bloods).

Moreover, check out cholo films like "Walk Proud," "Duke of Earl," and "Boulevard Nights," and the like-and still tell me with a straight face, that black gang bangers back in the day-DIDN'T DRESS OR STYLE THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY!

No, what it is, is that you have these young eses nowadays, who weren't born during these times, or were to young to fully remember the times, when black gang bangers, on up until the mid to late 90's, sported, dressed and represented themselves, the way contemporary surenos do nowadays.

Nowadays, surenos are copying, mimicking and outright arrogating, the black gang banger crip culture from the early to late 90's, in how they dress, extol the blue rag as a sacred street banner, carry themselves, as well as the type of music they perform (rap music), including the ambience of their "chicano" rap music videos!

Surenos out there today, are doing nothing new, but many of them, like this fool, can lie and say that they originated this L.A. gangsta shit (deceiving a lot of folks, including gullible black folks, who are ahistorical about their history anyway), simply because they are in the majority, when the reality is, IT WAS BLACK FOLKS WHO ORIGINALLY BROUGHT THAT STREET GANGSTA FLAVOR, TO L.A. AS WELL AS PRODUCED IT IN L.A.!

Don't be deceived by this fool! Hell, if it weren't for black folks in L.A. you wouldn't even have Chicano rap, which is nothing but repackaged black gangsta rap, with a few cultural flourishes coming from mexicans.

So naw man, when it comes to cultural swapping and the like, black folks in general, especially in L.A., really don't owe mexicans-A DAMN THING, if you reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllly want to take it there!

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 7:24 am

perongregory wrote:an ex cop that worked on that prison shit back in the day said the blue and red bandanas actually came way later (for mexicans), that the dates have been confused and twisted by rumors.
Mexicans didn't start sporting the blue and red thing, as a gang banner (because remember, everyone, who utilized bandannas, either sported red or blue bandannas, seeing as how back in the day, those were the only colors that were available; we're talking about gang identifiers, when it comes to the blue and red bandannas), until the mid to late 70's.

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Unread post by Redrag52 » June 6th, 2007, 8:10 am

( the real ) hats off to you homie , keep that black history up .

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 8:23 am

mnjmc wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:Weren't no tv's or cell phones or computers back in the old times. Make no mistake, the Cholo style, as a finished product, is all Chicano.

Anyway, here's a link, that includes basic history, pics, and facts, as to how it became what it is today.

The First House in the City of LOS.

HAHA. Nothing but pictures of people before their coward ass children called themselves chicano.
Cowards? Your entire familia is cowardly because they RAN over here and had to pay $200 dollars to a coyote to bring your worthlessasss into MY country. That's right, you and your family didn't have the balls nor brains to stay put, so like PUNKS, they packed it in and RAN. 100% BI-TCH! LOL I could imagine you standing in line at the immigration office and begging for a GREEN CARD! Family getting bit-chslapped and degraded the entire time. LOLLOLOLOL

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » June 6th, 2007, 8:31 am

I'll say that the do-rag (a simple piece of cloth tied at the back used to cover the head) was in use from the 1930s to the 1960s by African American men to hold chemically processed hair-dos in place while they slept and that originally they were made from pieces of handkerchief, bandannas, or women's stockings (now they are made from polyester).

But the first gangs in this country to fly a common colored bandana were the cowboy gangs of the 1800's such as the one that the Earps finally put an end to. Also there were union men in the coal strikes who wore red bandanas around their necks and arms as part of an informal uniform.

As for modern streetgangs in Southern California flying red and blue, the Mexicans were flying bandanas in the joint in the fifites and on the streets in the sixties, despite what a single correctional officer (there are over 30,000 correctional officers in the state) said about the facility he worked in, and Mexicans had certainly worn them in the fields before that.

And research is still being conducted but it appears some gangs, such as Maravilla may date back further than the 1920s.

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 8:37 am

mjokc wrote:. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.
Whereas your info is internet based, I have firsthand knowledge. I have known Mexican Americans who were around in the 20's and earlier, and they speak or spoke, a mixture of English and Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with speaking in ebonics but I know for a fact, the older generations did not use it. We have always had our own thing, strictly original, as a finished product. Deal with it.

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 8:45 am

Old Shatterhand wrote:I'll say that the do-rag (a simple piece of cloth tied at the back used to cover the head) was in use from the 1930s to the 1960s by African American men to hold chemically processed hair-dos in place while they slept and that originally they were made from pieces of handkerchief, bandannas, or women's stockings (now they are made from polyester).

But the first gangs in this country to fly a common colored bandana were the cowboy gangs of the 1800's such as the one that the Earps finally put an end to. Also there were union men in the coal strikes who wore red bandanas around their necks and arms as part of an informal uniform.

As for modern streetgangs in Southern California flying red and blue, the Mexicans were flying bandanas in the joint in the fifites and on the streets in the sixties, despite what a single correctional officer (there are over 30,000 correctional officers in the state) said about the facility he worked in, and Mexicans had certainly worn them in the fields before that.

And research is still being conducted but it appears some gangs, such as Maravilla may date back further than the 1920s.
I thought the Maravilla gang only goes back to the 30's?

Furthermore, I have pictures of my relatives from my mother's side of the family, namely my great grandfather, who in a photo, taken in 1914, was wearing a dark bandanna headkerchief. I couldn't tell whether or not it was blue, black, or red, seeing as how the photo was in black and white.

Now in regards to mexicans wearing rags back in the sixties and fifties, as well as in the fields before that-I did stress in my post that everyone, including white folks, who were going to wear bandannas, were only going to wear bandannas that were either blue, or red, because these were the only colors available at the time. My relatives, who were field worker in the thirties, forties and fifties, would sport either a blue, or red bandanna, but they would mostly wear hats over these bandannas.

I also have photos of relatives, who would sport bandannas, either blue, or red, to maintain their process, which you were correct about.

Moreover, just check out any old photos of slaves, and you will see them wearing headkerchiefs, and the like.

But anyways, the point of me highlighting the bandanna thing, was to place emphasis on when this item (the bandanna) became a gang identifier. Mexicans in the Cali penal system, during the 50's and 60's, may have sported the bandanna, but did they sport it as a gang identifier, or did they just sport it, just to be sporting it?

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 8:48 am

Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
mjokc wrote:. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.
Whereas your info is internet based, I have firsthand knowledge. I have known Mexican Americans who were around in the 20's and earlier, and they speak or spoke, a mixture of English and Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with speaking in ebonics but I know for a fact, the older generations did not use it. We have always had our own thing, strictly original, as a finished product. Deal with it.
Mexicans back in the day did speak ebonics, but more so black slang than ebonics...

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 9:07 am

Old Shatterhand wrote: But the first gangs in this country to fly a common colored bandana were the cowboy gangs of the 1800's such as the one that the Earps finally put an end to. Also there were union men in the coal strikes who wore red bandanas around their necks and arms as part of an informal uniform.

As for modern streetgangs in Southern California flying red and blue, the Mexicans were flying bandanas in the joint in the fifites and on the streets in the sixties, despite what a single correctional officer (there are over 30,000 correctional officers in the state) said about the facility he worked in, and Mexicans had certainly worn them in the fields before that.

And research is still being conducted but it appears some gangs, such as Maravilla may date back further than the 1920s.



That's the truest statement on this thread. Anybody who denies that Mexican Americans existence and cultural developments in LOS ANGELES (LOHS ANG' HEL' ES), CALFORNIA (CALI' FOHHHR' NIAAH)does not know what they are talking about.

My grandparents, who were born in EAST LOS in the 1920's, straight MARAVILLA born and raised. Said gangbanging was going on here, even before their time!

Anybody talking about like we're immigrants is watching too much tv, reading too many internet stories, and doesn't really know. That's the bottom line.

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 9:13 am

TheReal wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
mjokc wrote:. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.
Whereas your info is internet based, I have firsthand knowledge. I have known Mexican Americans who were around in the 20's and earlier, and they speak or spoke, a mixture of English and Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with speaking in ebonics but I know for a fact, the older generations did not use it. We have always had our own thing, strictly original, as a finished product. Deal with it.
Mexicans back in the day did speak ebonics, but more so black slang than ebonics...
What's up The Real?

Is that firsthand knowledge or OTHER?

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 9:18 am

Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
Old Shatterhand wrote: But the first gangs in this country to fly a common colored bandana were the cowboy gangs of the 1800's such as the one that the Earps finally put an end to. Also there were union men in the coal strikes who wore red bandanas around their necks and arms as part of an informal uniform.

As for modern streetgangs in Southern California flying red and blue, the Mexicans were flying bandanas in the joint in the fifites and on the streets in the sixties, despite what a single correctional officer (there are over 30,000 correctional officers in the state) said about the facility he worked in, and Mexicans had certainly worn them in the fields before that.

And research is still being conducted but it appears some gangs, such as Maravilla may date back further than the 1920s.



That's the truest statement on this thread. Anybody who denies that Mexican Americans existence and cultural developments in LOS ANGELES (LOHS ANG' HEL' ES), CALFORNIA (CALI' FOHHHR' NIAAH)does not know what they are talking about.

My grandparents, who were born in EAST LOS in the 1920's, straight MARAVILLA born and raised. Said gangbanging was going on here, even before their time!

Anybody talking about like we're immigrants is watching too much tv, reading too many internet stories, and doesn't really know. That's the bottom line.
No one's talking as if mexicans just dropped off of the turnip truck in L.A. HOWEVER, you must admit, that many of your own people are trying to excise, excoriate and decimate, the cultural contributions of black folks in L.A., and posssibly around the country. This is done by many of your own people who claim that black folks stole all of their shit from mexicans, and that black folks try to act like mexicans, etc.

Hell, many of your people claim that back in the day (20's, 30's, 40's, etc.), black folks had no culture, because we were too busy being preoccupied with living on plantations as slaves-this is what your boy Chino Grande said. So if anything, your people are the worst offenders, when it comes to your intentional misconceptions about black folks, and the cultural inputs.

And the funny thing about all of this is-you know you've heard all this before, and so have I, from mexicans, to where many of your people are trying to intimidate, and have successfully bullied and intimidated, plenty of black folks in L.A., with these spurious revisionist histories.

Again, no one is denying the mexican presence in L.A., and their cultural impact, per se, but I damn sure know that your people is downright lying on my people, with the implication, and outright stating, that black folks have no culture, and that all of their street culture in L.A. was taken from mexicans, WHICH IS A DAMN LIE!

With that said, everything I posted in my above posts, when it comes to what flavor black folks introduced to overall L.A. culture, as well as street culture, still stands, for it is the TRUTH!

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 9:25 am

Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
TheReal wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
mjokc wrote:. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.
Whereas your info is internet based, I have firsthand knowledge. I have known Mexican Americans who were around in the 20's and earlier, and they speak or spoke, a mixture of English and Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with speaking in ebonics but I know for a fact, the older generations did not use it. We have always had our own thing, strictly original, as a finished product. Deal with it.
Mexicans back in the day did speak ebonics, but more so black slang than ebonics...
What's up The Real?

Is that firsthand knowledge or OTHER?
This is firsthand knowledge from a cat who claimed to have been a pachuco from the 1950's (I didn't know there were any pachucos in the 50's; oh well), in the sense that this cat would dress up in zoot suits, and speak in an ebonicized way.

For example, instead of saying "What is up?", he would say "Whassup?" Instead of saying what is happening, he would say "What be happening" (especially if he were around black folks, for around his own, he would speak calo). Instead of saying "fool," or "cool," he would say "foo," or "coo."

He would also use black slang, from back in the day, with words like "daddio," "hip," "cool", "give me skin," "jive," etc.

And mind you, the timeframe of me knowing this cat, was in the mid 70's, and at the time, he was like in his 40's, or late 40's.

Well anyway, I met a few old school mexican cats like him during the 70's and 80's, and cats who weren't all too old school, and what they would do is, mix standard english, ebonics, calo, and black street slang, that produced their own particular ways of communicating.

Come on man, you have to know what I'm talking about?

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Unread post by youngspade » June 6th, 2007, 9:53 am

I tip my hat..off to...Old Shatter

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 10:18 am

TheReal wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
Old Shatterhand wrote: But the first gangs in this country to fly a common colored bandana were the cowboy gangs of the 1800's such as the one that the Earps finally put an end to. Also there were union men in the coal strikes who wore red bandanas around their necks and arms as part of an informal uniform.

As for modern streetgangs in Southern California flying red and blue, the Mexicans were flying bandanas in the joint in the fifites and on the streets in the sixties, despite what a single correctional officer (there are over 30,000 correctional officers in the state) said about the facility he worked in, and Mexicans had certainly worn them in the fields before that.

And research is still being conducted but it appears some gangs, such as Maravilla may date back further than the 1920s.



That's the truest statement on this thread. Anybody who denies that Mexican Americans existence and cultural developments in LOS ANGELES (LOHS ANG' HEL' ES), CALFORNIA (CALI' FOHHHR' NIAAH)does not know what they are talking about.

My grandparents, who were born in EAST LOS in the 1920's, straight MARAVILLA born and raised. Said gangbanging was going on here, even before their time!

Anybody talking about like we're immigrants is watching too much tv, reading too many internet stories, and doesn't really know. That's the bottom line.
No one's talking as if mexicans just dropped off of the turnip truck in L.A. HOWEVER, you must admit, that many of your own people are trying to excise, excoriate and decimate, the cultural contributions of black folks in L.A., and posssibly around the country. This is done by many of your own people who claim that black folks stole all of their shit from mexicans, and that black folks try to act like mexicans, etc.

Hell, many of your people claim that back in the day (20's, 30's, 40's, etc.), black folks had no culture, because we were too busy being preoccupied with living on plantations as slaves-this is what your boy Chino Grande said. So if anything, your people are the worst offenders, when it comes to your intentional misconceptions about black folks, and the cultural inputs.

And the funny thing about all of this is-you know you've heard all this before, and so have I, from mexicans, to where many of your people are trying to intimidate, and have successfully bullied and intimidated, plenty of black folks in L.A., with these spurious revisionist histories.

Again, no one is denying the mexican presence in L.A., and their cultural impact, per se, but I damn sure know that your people is downright lying on my people, with the implication, and outright stating, that black folks have no culture, and that all of their street culture in L.A. was taken from mexicans, WHICH IS A DAMN LIE!

With that said, everything I posted in my above posts, when it comes to what flavor black folks introduced to overall L.A. culture, as well as street culture, still stands, for it is the TRUTH!
There you go again, trying to spin this topic into your culture being right and justified in everything and others being wrong or bad. You do that all the time on this board, to justify your racism against Mexicans Americans. This isn't about the animosity that is going on today. It just doesn't make sense how on one hand, you say, "Mexican Americans use black English; and on the other hand, you say we want to decimate your culture."Which is it?

Not only does that not make sense. You take the comments of one or maybe two people and stereotype an entire ethnicity. That in itself is a DAMN LIE. Using your logic, I could say that all blacks have racist beliefs against Mexicans just because The Real is black and he says so.

It's not about denying black presence in LA. This is about knowing what I know to be true. The CHOLO style is a Chicano original.

I got a question. If blacks weren't influenced by Mexican Americans, then why weren't the CRIPS and BLOODS started elsewhere, such as in the Southeast or East Coast?

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Unread post by Rollin_inmy_SixFo » June 6th, 2007, 10:31 am

TheReal wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
TheReal wrote:
Rollin_inmy_SixFo wrote:
mjokc wrote:. If you even knew your history you'd know that old school mexicans back in the 20s said that the first english that they learned was "black" english. Now get the fu-- outta here with that mexican power shit fag.
Whereas your info is internet based, I have firsthand knowledge. I have known Mexican Americans who were around in the 20's and earlier, and they speak or spoke, a mixture of English and Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with speaking in ebonics but I know for a fact, the older generations did not use it. We have always had our own thing, strictly original, as a finished product. Deal with it.
Mexicans back in the day did speak ebonics, but more so black slang than ebonics...
What's up The Real?

Is that firsthand knowledge or OTHER?
This is firsthand knowledge from a cat who claimed to have been a pachuco from the 1950's (I didn't know there were any pachucos in the 50's; oh well), in the sense that this cat would dress up in zoot suits, and speak in an ebonicized way.

For example, instead of saying "What is up?", he would say "Whassup?" Instead of saying what is happening, he would say "What be happening" (especially if he were around black folks, for around his own, he would speak calo). Instead of saying "fool," or "cool," he would say "foo," or "coo."

He would also use black slang, from back in the day, with words like "daddio," "hip," "cool", "give me skin," "jive," etc.

And mind you, the timeframe of me knowing this cat, was in the mid 70's, and at the time, he was like in his 40's, or late 40's.

Well anyway, I met a few old school mexican cats like him during the 70's and 80's, and cats who weren't all too old school, and what they would do is, mix standard english, ebonics, calo, and black street slang, that produced their own particular ways of communicating.

Come on man, you have to know what I'm talking about?
OK there are a few words that are well known and mainstream. Nothing wrong with using black terminology. I wouldn't go so far as to say that CHOLOS act black. You speak more English than anything else, does that mean you're acting white? Black English is based on the English language. African American culture is influenced by European culture, does that mean all blacks want to be white? No it doesn't. Get what I'm saying? So one or two borrowed words do not define an entire culture or subculture.

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 11:06 am

I said:

No one's talking as if mexicans just dropped off of the turnip truck in L.A. HOWEVER, you must admit, that many of your own people are trying to excise, excoriate and decimate, the cultural contributions of black folks in L.A., and posssibly around the country. This is done by many of your own people who claim that black folks stole all of their shit from mexicans, and that black folks try to act like mexicans, etc.

Hell, many of your people claim that back in the day (20's, 30's, 40's, etc.), black folks had no culture, because we were too busy being preoccupied with living on plantations as slaves-this is what your boy Chino Grande said. So if anything, your people are the worst offenders, when it comes to your intentional misconceptions about black folks, and the cultural inputs.

And the funny thing about all of this is-you know you've heard all this before, and so have I, from mexicans, to where many of your people are trying to intimidate, and have successfully bullied and intimidated, plenty of black folks in L.A., with these spurious revisionist histories.

Again, no one is denying the mexican presence in L.A., and their cultural impact, per se, but I damn sure know that your people is downright lying on my people, with the implication, and outright stating, that black folks have no culture, and that all of their street culture in L.A. was taken from mexicans, WHICH IS A DAMN LIE!

With that said, everything I posted in my above posts, when it comes to what flavor black folks introduced to overall L.A. culture, as well as street culture, still stands, for it is the TRUTH!

Whereas he said:

There you go again, trying to spin this topic into your culture being right and justified in everything and others being wrong or bad.

My response:

How so?

He said:

You do that all the time on this board, to justify your racism against Mexicans Americans.

You still haven't proven the falsity in my claims. All I hear you doing now is whining like a little bitch!

He said:

This isn't about the animosity that is going on today.

My response:

What does this statement of yours have to do with the price of tea in China, let alone this discussion?

He said:

It just doesn't make sense how on one hand, you say, "Mexican Americans use black English; and on the other hand, you say we want to decimate your culture."Which is it?


My response:

I can't believe you ran into that one.

You see, your people can still want to decimate and diminish the importance or impact of black cultural influences, even if you are heavily influenced by them. In other words, I'm talking about the acts that comes from scoundrels, and the fact that many of your own people will say that blacks have no culture, and that we took all of our street culture from your people, while it is very apparent that your people took droves of cultural shit from my people, which is what makes mexicans who think this way (black folks have no culture; black folks took all of their culture from mexicans), and preach this foolishness-SOUL PATROLLERS AND CULTURAL BANDITS!

Why? Because they arrogate from another culture (black folks culture), but yet don't want to claim that they were ever influenced, or inspired by that culture (black), only to turn around and claim that the culture they borrowed from (black), borrowed all of their shit from them, INCLUDING THE THINGS THAT THEY BORROWED FROM THAT CULTURE!!

It sounds confusing, right? Well, in the mist of that confusion, lies the dilemma, that is betwixt the discussions that are put forth, by your people, who will go over land and sea, by way of cyberspace, as well as other outlets, and claim that black folks have no culture, and that we never really produced any culture, let alone L.A. street culture, AND THAT WE GOT ALL OF OUR SHIT FROM YOUR PEOPLE!

This is how your kind is "decimating" the contributions of black folks, when it comes to black folks contributions to the cultural aesthetics of L.A., and you know this, SO WHY FAKE THE FUNK?!!

He said:

Not only does that not make sense.

My response:

Boy have I proven you wrong? You should try and reread the above, ONCE AGAIN FOOL!

He said:

You take the comments of one or maybe two people and stereotype an entire ethnicity.

My response:

What comments are you referring to? Are you mixing posts, or are you dealing with this entirely? The simple fact of the matter is, the old school cholos and pachucos I ran across during the mid 70's and some in the 80's, who talked this way, wasn't a mere coincidence. This is how pachucos rolled back in the day, in regards to their speech, which was a combination of standard english, some spanish words, ebonics, black slang and calo, fool-WHAT'S SO STEREOTYPICAL ABOUT THAT???

What would be stereotypical, is if I were to classify every mexican back in the day, living in SoCal, as pachucos, and acting this way!

You don't even know what a stereotype really is, and if you do, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY APPLY THE TERM!

He said:

That in itself is a DAMN LIE.

My response:

What was a damn lie? The old school cholos/pachucos that I've ran across, because if you're saying that my meeting and speaking with these cats is a "DAMN LIE," then you yourself are a DAMN LIE, for you don't know what information I gleaned from these cats, to know for sure, I'm telling a DAMN LIE: DAMN LIAR!

He said:

Using your logic, I could say that all blacks have racist beliefs against Mexicans just because The Real is black and he says so.

My response:

What logic? First of all, I'm not racist against mexicans, like many of your racist sureno brethren and their sur sympathizers, who are racist against black folks, so don't even go there with me on that tip. Secondly, yeah fool, YOU WOULD BE A RACIST ASS HOLE IF YOU LABELED ALL BLACK FOLKS AS BEING RACIST, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TRY TO CONTRAST AND JUSTIFY THAT LOGIC, BY SUPPOSEDLY POINTING OUT HOW I AM BEING RACIST JUST BECAUSE I TELL YOU OF A SURETY, THAT MANY STREET CHICANOS BACK IN THE DAY, WHO WERE PACHUCOS, BANGERS AND WHATNOT, WOULD INCORPORATE BLACK SLANG AND EBONICS INTO THEIR SPEECH!!

I mean, WHAT'S SO FUCKING DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT PROSPECT, DUMBASS-SEEING AS HOW YOUR PEOPLE NOWADAYS, HAVE INCORPORATED BLACK SPEECH, BLACK SLANG WORDS, AND HIP-HOP CULTURE, BY WAY OF RAP MUSIC AND THE LIKE, INTO YOUR DAILY LIVES!

Okay for sure, if you want to technical, one can say it would be racist on my part to say that aaaaaaaaaaaalll mexicans engage in the above, BUT COME ON FOOL!!!!!!! Are you going to tell me that if someone said what I said in the above, about a grip of contemporary mexicans/chicanos nowadays, engaging in hip-hop culture and the like-THAT I WOULD BE LYING??????

Man get your head out of the sand, or out of your ass, for I wouldn't be dissing anyone, if I stated this!

You're not fooling me none. You're just upset that your people take cultural shit from a people, you feel are beneath you; that's the real crux of your angst-but yet you call me a racist??

He said:

It's not about denying black presence in LA. This is about knowing what I know to be true. The CHOLO style is a Chicano original.

My response:

First of all, it is about "denying" the black CULTURAL presence in L.A. And secondly, even that "CHOLO" style, that was codified by your own people-NEEDED SOME ASSISTANCE IN CERTAIN AREAS, FROM OTHER FOLKS, ESPECIALLY HOW YOUR CONTEMPORARY SUR BRETHREN CARRY ON TODAY, WITH ALL THE BLUE GEAR, AND ACTING LIKE CRIPS FROM THE EARLY TO MID 90'S!

The way your sur brethren are carrying on today, with the music, much of their speech, their gaits and what not, THE OLD SCHOOL CHOLOS WEREN'T MANIFESTING THIS STYLE BACK IN THE DAY, AND YOU KNOW THIS!

He said:

I got a question.

My response:

Yeah shoot!

He said:

If blacks weren't influenced by Mexican Americans, then why weren't the CRIPS and BLOODS started elsewhere, such as in the Southeast or East Coast?

My response:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWW!!!! You really blasted me with a zinger, now did you???

The simple fact of the matter is, I never claimed that chicano culture didn't influence black L.A. street culture, because did I not say in previous posts, probably on this one, that all cultures living in close proximity to one another will bororow off of each other???? Did I not say this??

HOWEVER, I did say that black folks took some cultural expressions from your folks, repackaged and made it their own, by creating unique distinctions in the way they dressed, walked and talked, which was different than what your people produced.

This is why I appealed to old photos, movies and the like, which are time capsules in how black folks, and mexicans, from back in the day, involved in the street life, were dissimiliar in their styles of dress, compared to your people, and overall representation, despite some similiarities.

But on the same token, are you going to tell me that the Pachucos weren't influenced by black culture, in the forms of black music, black speech, black gaits, black forms of dress, etc.? Are you going to say that chicanos in L.A, have a history of being culturally pure, and that they never adopted anything from black folks, not even rap/hip-hop music, r&b, funk, as well as gestures and mannerisms, and if you're telling me this, then you are nothing more than a DAMN LIAR, as well as a soul-patrolling, cultural bandit!

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Unread post by TheReal » June 6th, 2007, 11:29 am

He said:

OK there are a few words that are well known and mainstream.

My response:

And I can think of a few more words that were prevalent amongst black bangers in L.A., as well as black from around the country, that every racial group in L.A. utilize...

He said:

Nothing wrong with using black terminology.

My response:

Okay?

He said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say that CHOLOS act black.


My response:

Did I not say that there were distinctions that existed between black and brown street culture participants, from back in the day, from my earlier posts on this thread, as well as on other threads?

The fact of the matter is, all cultures, living in close proximity to one another, will surely borrow certain elements from the other culture, even if the two cultures don't particularly care for one another...

That shit is inevitable!

On the same token, let's get this out here as well, and that is-BLACK FOLKS DON'T TRY TO ACT MEXICAN EITHER!

He said:

You speak more English than anything else, does that mean you're acting white?

My response:

No it doesn't, HOWEVER, black folks speaking English, in many ways, isn't our fault, due to the fact that our original languages were taken from us, to where all we can use, in order to communicate-IS ENGLISH!

I don't think there's no shame in that, right?

He said:

Black English is based on the English language.

My response:

I realize this.

He said:

African American culture is influenced by European culture,

My response:

That's true, and likewise, black folks have influenced aspects of "European culture," and aspects of your people's culture as well. Hell, European culture has even influenced your people's culture (as well as Asian culture, and other cultures, if you get right down to it), when all things are considered from an historical bent.

He said:

does that mean all blacks want to be white? No it doesn't. Get what I'm saying? So one or two borrowed words do not define an entire culture or subculture.

My response:

I never said that it did, but on the flip side, without sounding too inflammatory-you need to tell your people that, in regards to their accusations against my people, in that they accuse black folks of having no culture, and that everything we have in regards to street culture, we totally got it from mexicans in SoCal, and that mexicans were never influenced by black culture...

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » June 6th, 2007, 11:48 am

Now I know a pachuco, older than dirt, from Los Angeles (his son in law was a real old skool veterano from Varrio Grape 60's and 70's era back when the Latinos and the Blacks were all in one gang there) whose father ran with Tin Tan (Germán Valdés) in Juarez and he told me straight out that Tin Tan made the Mexican American Pachucos famous in Mexico and that the Pachuko style did NOT orginate there. Furthermore, they spoke caló which was a mixture of Spanish and English based on the lingo of Mexican immigrants to America as a result of the Mexican Revolutionary War.

Now Gibby and others argued endlessly with The Real about all of this a few years ago and the discussion got deep. It caused me to seek out and ask some of these remaining Mexican Pachucos (including some of the migratory pachucos that were hopping trains working fields in different locations) what the story was. They told me that the Pachuco manner of dress and style originated in El Paso, Texas and moved westward, following the line of migration of Mexican railroad workers ("traqueros") into Los Angeles, where it developed further.

Now I also have reason to believe, based on my research, that to some extent (and here's where a point of argumentation lies between the Latinos and the Blacks) that the black performers, who were dressing sharp in the era after the turn of the century, influenced this.

Cholo style is a different discussion (which I'm sure we'll have... lol) and bandanas were first sported by Southern Mexicans in the prisons in the fifties (the only railroad rag available at the time with the red rag becoming available later in the prisons), taken in the late 1950s by La Eme, and worn on the streets in the 60's (which I saw with my own eyes). Nortenos didn't fly red until after 1968 (the year Nuestra Familia formed at Tracy). Interestingly, when I've asked them about it they said the red flag is in memory of Ceaser Chavez.

You have to understand that Raymond Washington, a 15 year-old student at Fremont High School who started what would later become known as the Crips in 1969, wasn't even on the map when Surenos were flying blue rags. I mean Nuestra Familia was flying red before Raymond Washington ever flew a blue rag. And the bloods flew red after the crips flew blue.

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