TheReal wrote:Mayugastank, this is for you:
-YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!!........you claim blacks started LA gang culture? get outta here!!.....
*NO FOOL! I DIDN’T SAY BLACK FOLKS STARTED LA GANG CULTURE, BUT I DAM SURE KNOW THAT MEXICANS DIDN’T ORIGINATE EVERYTHING WITHIN L.A. GANG CULTURE, THE WAY MANY OF YOUR PEOPLE CLAIM, and I also know without a shadow of a doubt, that it was black gangs in L.A. THAT PUT L.A. GANGS IN GENERAL, ON THE MAP. With that said, I DON’T BUY INTO THE FALSE, MYTHOLOGICAL HISTORICAL POSITION THAT BLACK GANGS, AND BLACK CULTURE, GOT ALL OF THEIR SHIIT FROM MEXICANS, WHICH IS WHAT MANY OF YOUR PEOPLE CLAIM!
So you get OUTTA HERE!
-name one black gang that existed at the time gangs like MARAVILLA --existed go back even to the 1940s and their isnt one black gang that existed then that still exists now!not one!!
*There were black gangs that existed in L.A., going all the way back to the 1920’s fool! Gangs like the Ludlows, the Boozies, and others (if you don’t believe me, then go read Alonzo’s piece on the history of black gangs, or the book “Have Gun Will Travel”). So later for your false historical, and sureno revisionist presumptions.
And when did Maravilla come around, and are you saying that black gangs in L.A. got started because they were trying to mimic and copy Ese gangs? If this is what you’re saying, then you are most definitely foolhardy in your historical and sociological assessment, as it relates to why certain gangs form in certain neighbourhoods, amongst a particular ethnic or racial group.
-The oldest gang in AMERICA not just california is the alpine street gang going back to the early 1900s that gang still exists to this DAY!
*Man, where do you get your history from? The oldest street gangs in America/U.S.A go back to the mid 19th Century, in New York, amongst the Irish immigrants. Are you getting your interpretation of gang history from the Sureno playbook?
-its roots can be traced to 1909
*The first Irish street gangs can be traced back to the 1840’s, so what’s your point?
-up until about 1980 they had a click that was the O9s ...the MEXICAN MAFIA started in 1959 its roots can be traced to a certain time in history ---the founding member was from HAwaiian GArdens -and an original member PEGLEG MORGAN was 45 years old when he was made a member of the MEXICAN MAFIA in 1969......
*I already know the history of the Mexican Mafia, for surenos like you are always bringing it up in our faces, so what else is new. Or for that matter, what point are you trying to make?
-if he joined his gang at 20 years old
-that would make him a banger since 1949......
-older and longer than ANY black gang in the city of LA to this very day!
*BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLSHIIT! Because as I said before, BLACK GANGS WERE IN EXISTENCE IN L.A., GOING BACK TO THE 1920’S, AND THERE IS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE TO VERIFY ALL OF THIS. Can you present evidence that can, and will deny this? I DON’T THINK SO!
-THhe oldest gang in AMerican HIstory was the ABC gang a gang compromised by Italians --its roots go to the 1890---so about 20 years older then the oldest mexicang --those ITALIAN gangs dont exist now of course they formed into the COSA NOSTRA.
*WRONG, in the sense that you are confusing street gangs, with organized crime. With street gangs, it was the Irish immigrants during the mid part of the 19th century, and with organized crime, it may have been the Italians that originated this, but I know that Jewish gangsters are highly overlooked.
-BUt the fact of the matter is the oldest --longest standing gang in the the USA is right here in LOS ANGELES--EAST LOS ANGELES. Home of the original gangster culture of the nation ! that culture is compromised primarily of chicanos-who originated the vast majority of what constitutes modern AMERICAN gang culture.
*Let me just stress this one point, seeing as how you’re so full of piss and vinegar, to where you’re trying to throw off your ethnic and racial pride off onto others-I NEVER SAID THAT BLACK GANGS WERE THE FIRST GANGS THAT EVER EXISTED IN THE U.S. So your trip through memory lane, which composed of some true historical moments, as well as spurious historical moments, is a bit trifling and pointless.
Secondly, black gangs in the U.S., as well as other ethnic street gangs, and criminal operations, throughout the U.S., just starting from the early part of the last century, up until now-DIDN’T GET ALL OF THEIR SHIIT, IF ANY OF IT, FROM MEXICAN STREET GANGS FROM OUT WEST; especially those gangs in the Midwest, east coast, and throughout the south, during the 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s. In other words, these ethnic groups or races weren’t waiting on Mexican gangs to show them how to gang bang, or what style they ought to emulate.
Hell, if anything, many of your Mexican brothers got much of their gang shiit, in regards to clothing (i.e. zoot suits, baggy clothing, music, dances, slang, attitude, etc.)- FROM BLACK GANGS/FOLKS, AND OTHER ETHNIC/RACIAL GROUPS.
-The tattoos -old english -block letters --style of writing --caligraphy on the neck
*First of all, Mexicans weren’t the first in this country to start sporting tattoos. Secondly, I never said Mexicans didn’t contribute to modern gang culture. Instead, what I’m combating, is fools like you who claim that black folks never contributed anything to the L.A. gang landscape, and that everything black folks have in L.A., or even across the country, in regards to gang/street culture-WE ORIGINALLY GOT FROM MEXICANS (I wonder how Teddy Roe, Bumpy Johnson, Frank Lucas would feel about this information; or even Al Capone, or Meyer Landsky, or the Dead Rabbit Gang.)
Now as far as old English style of writing, I really can’t say, so I’ll just take your word for that right now, but I do know that much of the slang (not to be confused with Calo), the music you guys listen to, and/or perform; many of the gestures and mannerisms, your folks utilize, etc.-YOU GUYS GOT FROM BLACK GANGS.
As a matter fact, Mexican pachuco gang members from back in the day, during the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, use to heavily copy, aspects of black culture that was in existence during that time, which was highlighted in the dress (i.e. zoot suits), the slang (i.e. words like daddio, cool, give me some skin, what’s happenin’ cat, etc.), as well as the music your folks listened to (i.e. jazz and swing music, as well as music we associate now, with “oldies,” or “lowrider music”).
Now that I think about it, there are articles that detail how Mexican youth during this time period (30’s and 40’s), weary and tired of their parent’s traditional Mexican culture, of which they would adopt “blackness” as new ways of expressing themselves, similar to how many of your folks do today, when it comes to the street slang (not to be confused with calo), stackin’ (hand signifiers/speech), being togged down in blue gear, crip or blood walkin’ (now some surenos are even claiming a “sureno walk”) gestures and mannerisms, and what you guys call “chicano rap,” or “sureno rap,” which is nothing more than repackaged BLACK GANGSTA RAP FROM THE LATE 1980’S, AND EARLY TO MID 90’S.
- --the 3 dots,
*I call this one piece of history potential BULLSHIIT, until you can prove otherwise. I feel that intuitively, you may be wrong on this end.
*BUULLSHIIT! Baggy clothing is what Mexicans arrogated from black folks during the 30’s, and 40’s. High waisted pants, with deep creases; zoot suits, staceys, wide brim hats, and the like-have all been appropriated by Mexicans, from black folks culture during this time period of the 30’s, and 40’s.
-area code as identifiers of gang culture,
*BUUUUUUULLLLLSHIIIT! I can say of a certainty, that black gangs in L.A. were using this means of identifying going all the way back to the early to mid 80’s. Back in the 70’s, 60’s, and even 50’s, NO GANGS, whether they be Mexican, or black, were using area codes as gang identifiers, and you can’t name, or produce one black, or Mexican gang member from the 70’s, and 60’s, that were using their area codes as gang identifiers.
If you can, then I’ll concede this one point, but if you can’t-I’LL JUST RELEGATE THIS TO BUUUUUUULLLLLSSSHHIIIT!
-blue and red flags , you just are ridicolous in saying crips and bloods started flying red and blue before anyone else --how could they when nortenos came before ANY CRIP OR BLOOD SET? and Surenos are double as old as any NORTE gang????
*BUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLSHIIIIT! There are several TALES, on how Mexican gangs first began to sport the blue and the red rags. One source says the prison system in the late 60’s made this distinction between the north and the south, whereas another source says the late 70’s. HOWEVER, I do know that the crips sported the blue in the late 60’s, based on the High School colours of the founding member (go do the research), likewise with the Bloods, and their sporting of red.
(Besides, black folks across the country have always had a headkerchief tradition, for regardless of whether they were field workers, or wearing bandannas to keep their processes in check-BLACK CULTURE HAVE ALWAYS UTILIZED, AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, THE BANDANNA.)
Furthermore, I do know, from an old black gang member who was once a member of “The Blood Alley” gang from the 1950’s, who said that their colour identifier (not rag mind you) was RED. Now mind you, he may be telling me the truth, or not, for when he told me this, he was off on some “youth get their shiit from the old tip”-but nevertheless, this was his position.
Having said that, I can say of a surety, beginning in the 1970’s, that from the 70’s, on up until the early 90’s, MEXICAN GANG MEMBERS WERE HARDLY SPORTING BLUE GEAR, OR USING THE BLUE RAG AS A GANG BANNER AS HEAVILY AS THEY DO TODAY! Now grant it, they may have sported blue rags- BUT THAT WAS ABOUT IT. It was black gang members, during the period of the 70’s and 80’s, and throughout the mid 90’s, who were heavily sporting blue and red gear, and holding up the blue and red rags, AS GANG BANNERS- NOT ESES.
Back in the day (I can only use the 70’s and 80’s, as well as 90’s, as my point of reference), Mexicans mainly wore earth tone colours, such as beige, brown, black, some blue, and white, etc.-THEY WERE HARDLY SPORTING BLUE, OR BLUE BANDANNAS IN A HARDCORE WAY, like the crips, or even bloods, who wore primarily red. As a matter of fact, I remember quite a few surenos sporting brown bandannas, so as to disassociate themselves from black gangs, namely the crips.
All these newfangled modern day surenos out here today, being togged down in all of this blue, is a relatively recent thing, that really took off in the mid 90’s, when they began to get heavily involved in south central black gangsta rap culture and flavor, that emanated from black south central gang culture.
Simply put, the old zoot suit style, and cholo image from the 50’s onwards, deeply listening to oldies, needed to get a cultural boost, from black folks AGAIN, in the form of black west coast gangsta rap flavour, and black south central gang culture.
I may discuss this further on down this post, but for now, let’s proceed further.
-the nortes started wearing red from the moment of their founding....that founding was at least 10 years beofre any crip or blood set in CALI.
*THAT’S BUUUUUUUUULLLLSHIIIT AND YOU KNOW THIS! Can you produce any historical data that effectively lay out the claims you’re making here? Nortes weren’t wearing the color red, from their founding, which was 10 years before the crips and the bloods, seeing as how the only evidence that sides with your sureno version of the matter, states that the blue and the red came about during the very late 60’s, WHICH WASN’T 10 YEARS PRIOR TO THE FOUNDING OF THE CRIPS AND THE BLOODS! Remember, the crips came out during the late 60’s, whereas the bloods were formed during the early 70’s, of which your
mathematical conclusions and timeline, are simply WRONG.
And you do know that there were black gangs in L.A. before the crips and the bloods, right? Whether they are out west, or on the east coast? Now I’m not saying all of this to claim that these gangs were sporting blue and red rags, but it appears that it needs to be put out there, seeing as how modern day surenos like you, who strictly read from the false history of the sureno handbook, seem to believe that the first black gangs in L.A., that ever existed, WERE THE CRIPS AND THE BLOODS, which is-BUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLSSSSSHHHIIIT!
-Gangster culture from california has been copied throughout the nation--blacks from california go anywere in the USA and are well respected and admired-everywere blacks from CALI touch down all other blacks try to emulate their way of dress and style of clothes, and gang identifiers. In New York today their is a strong blood presence , in fact the bloods are tnehe only really established gang in NEw York -with streets -clicks and thousands of members......are you gonna tell me those NYC blacks didnt get that from CAli blacks?
*First of all, there was a black gang culture, and black gangs in existence throughout the Midwest and east coast, prior to the late 80’s, and early 90’s, before the advent of black west coast gangsta rap, which popularized certain aspects of west coast culture, nationwide. Black gangs like the Gangsta Disciples, Vice-Lords, El-Rukns, and other gangs throughout the Midwest, and even east coast, didn’t need west coast flavour when they first hit the scene prior to the 80’s, and the popularity of west coast hip-hop culture.
This just shows how limited your depth of knowledge is when it comes to gang history, especially black gang history, along with your scope. This is also shows that no black person in their right mind should ever listen to a sureno, especially a sureno who was possibly born in the 80’s onward, when it comes to interpreting, or giving a full and accurate historical account, of black gang history, or street gang/organized crime history, in general.
Why? Because much of what they say is anti-historical, and intellectual-BUUUUUUUUUULLLSHHHIIIT!
-and that Cqali blacks didnt adopt ( and change ) the original culture of gang banging from chicanos?
*Fool, I’ve never denied that black gangs out west didn’t appropriate anything from chicano gangs, RATHER, if you take aaaaaaaaaalllllll of my posts within their proper context, instead of eating the meat and spitting out the bones, I’VE ALWAYS SAID THAT BLACK FOLKS ADOPTED ELEMENTS OF CHICANO GANG CULTURE, AND CHANGED SOME OF THOSE ELEMENTS IN ORDER TO FIT IN WITH THEIR OWN CULTURAL ETHOS AND SENSIBILITIES.
I even said the same thing about Mexicans in the 30’s, 40’s, and part of the 50’s, who adopted black styles of dress, music, language, and style, but yet had added their own cultural nuances, in order for what they were adopting, to fit within their own cultural ethos and sensibilities.
Simply put, Mexicans adopted certain aspects of black cultural sensibilities, and augmented those sensibilities with their own distinct cultural nuances and brand, whereas in return, black folks adopted some aspects of what Mexicans created, and from there, formed their own distinct cultural brew, which became the black south central gang mystique, going from the mid 70’s, on up until the early part of the 90’s-with residues lasting strongly until the late 90’s.
And what I’m saying is, from the black south central, gang culture mystique, is what gave modern day surenos like you, the notion to tog yourselves down heavily in blue gear, and proudly proclaim the blue bandanna, as your flag and emblem (your kind wasn’t doing this back in the 70’s and 80’s); sporting bald heads, which your kind began to do heavily, beginning in the mid 90’s, trying to copy black folks, as well as the iconic image of Tupac (your kind wasn’t doing this in the early 90’s, 80’s, and 70’s, downward); stackin’ (your kind wasn’t doing this in the early 90’s, 80’s, and 70’s); listening to, and performing gangsta rap music (your kind didn’t originate this music, nor did you originate the style of music that is commonly classified as oldies, jazz, and swing music, funk, etc.).
I can say more, but let’s proceed further.
-taht "the game ""didnt start getting tatted up on the face and neck from seeing chicanos do that?
*Mexicans didn’t start getting tatted up until they saw white folks, especially sailors, so what’s your point? Remember, it is racist surenos like you, who claim that black folks didn’t create anything culturally, and that everything that Mexicans have, is original, and not borrowed from any source group, whereas my primary position on this site has been to expose how black folks did indeed contribute to street gang culture, primarily L.A. street gang culture, and that not everything Mexicans “originated”, is all that original, nor are their stories all that true.
Also, I’ve been showing how all cultures that live in close proximity to one another, arrogate aspects of the other culture, from off of one another, even on a subconscious level. But of course, racist surenos like you don’t want to hear this, because in your racist, myopic world, where black folks have no culture, and probably no soul-BLACK FOLKS TOOK EVERYTHING THEY HAD FROM MEXICANS, WHEREAS BLACK FOLKS CREATED NOTHING, NOT EVEN THE MUSIC AND STYLE THEY ORIGINATED.
Remember black folks, this is the core of what Mexicans are truly saying about black folks, and WANT TO believe about black folks, which makes much of what they have to say on the matter, an example of taking something with a grain of salt.
-taht gangster blacks in CAli arent getting hit up all over the place and that tatoing culture of the UNITED STATES isnt a primarily -EAST LOS chicano invention?
*Traditional black south central culture from back in the day has been hit up by you modern day surenos, as well as black folks from around the country, but not as strongly as you propose, BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, especially if you look at certain regions of the south. Hell, if anything, west coast gang culture is really beginning to die out, or have lost its prestige, similar to west coast hip-hop, to where you have the west coast emulating folks from the east, and dirty south.
And as far as tats go, again-THEY ARE NOT A “EAST LOS chicano invention”.
- shit!! you are seriously delusional ---up until recently I dint ever see anyone who wasnt chicano and gang affiliated in some way get tattoos ---if you go back to 1990 in the juvenile system there wasnt one black I ever saw with a tattoo period!!
*Now you’re the one who’s truly delusional, and batshiit crazy, BECAUSE I KNOW RELATIVES OF MINE, FROM THE MID 70’S, WHO WERE BLOODS, WHO WOULD SPORT TATS ON THEIR ARMS, IDENTIFYING THEIR GANG AFFILIATION. As a matter of fact, I know you’re doubly lying, or full of it, when you talk about the 80’s specifically, seeing as how I have a relative, who was a member of the BGF from the very early 80’s, WEARING A BGF TATTOO.
And if you want to go tit-for-tat, I bet you didn’t see any Mexican sureno gang member from the 80’s, in the juvenile system-SPORTING A BALDHEAD! I bet you didn’t even know one sureno in the juvenile system, in the 80’s-RAPPING! I even bet you didn’t meet one sureno youth, languishing in the juvenile system, stackin’, sur walkin,’ or being togged down in blue, or red for that matter, and holding up the blue and the red as gang banners, and if you say that you had-I KNOW THAT YOU’RE LYING YOUR AZZ OFF, JUST TO PROVE A POINT.
Talk about delusional?
-now you can go anywere and see whites --asians --blacks with the style of tattooing that chicanos started.The roses --demnons--old english, women, religious icons , caligraphy , back pieces.neck pieces,
*Black folks have always used religious icons in the home, albeit from a primarily protestant perspective, and not Roman Catholic perspective, which is what you’re referring to, when it comes to your point of reference on religious icons, unless you’re talking about some black folks who live in Louisiana, or those black folks, including Haitians, and the like, who use Roman Catholic, and other religious icons, due to their roots in voodoo, or other forms of African ethnic witchcraft.
And what do you mean black gangsters got the utilizing of women as sexual images from Mexicans? Man, have you ever heard of pimps like Ice-Berg Slim, or studied the history of black pimp culture? Have you ever seen blaxploitation movie posters from the 1970’s, or black art from this time period, showing the black female physique-THIS SHIIT DIDN’T START WITH GANGSTA RAP, AND IT MOST DEFINITELY DIDN’T ORIGINATE WITH MEXICANS, FOOL!
Hell, white men had Playboy magazines, calendar girls, movies dealing with naked white women, as well as posters, all throughout the last century. Now that I think about it, all races of men have exploited their women, or women in general, FOOL! They didn’t need Mexican men, or Mexican surenos to give them inspiration.
And you call me delusional?!!!
-tear drops on the face,
*I’ve heard differently, so I’ll say that you may, or may not be right on this one. All I know is that Mexican gangs during the 70’s and 80’s, weren’t wearing tear drops on their faces.
The first time I saw this, it was from a crip, in 1983.
Hell, I saw a lot of things that black gang members did, back in the day, that I never saw Mexican gang members engage in, but now I’m being told that black folks got it from Mexicans. You go figure.
- LA and cali shot oout outs! NOt only did WE start it the entire world copied it
*Man that’s BUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLSSSSSHHIIIIT! Modern day gang drive bys in the last century originated with white organized crime gangs. Al Capone, Bugsy Moran, Dutch Schultz, and the like, were performing drive bys with automatic tommy guns, when ese street gangs were still using knives, pistols, and the occasional shotgun. So don’t even go there with that one.
And furthermore, as far as L.A. gang culture, IT WAS BLACK GANGS IN THE MID TO LATE 70’S, AND ESPECIALLY EARLY 80’S, WHO BEGAN TO USE HEAVILY, AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, TO WHERE THEY REVIVED THE MODERN DAY STREET GANG DRIVE BY! Mexican gangs back in the day, on up until the mid 80’s, only used pistols, knives, and shotguns, ESPECIALLY DURING THE 70’S.
Furthermore, ese gangs back in the day really didn’t perform drive bys. There thing was to sneak upon a house, get out, and shoot into the window, or walk upon an enemy, and shoot, or stab them-THIS IS HOW THEY PREDOMINATELY OPERATED, with few exceptions.
The only time surs may have engaged in drive bys back in the day, is if they were being initiated into a gang, to where they would shoot off into a crowd.
Again, this fool calls me delusional?
This is why I say that no black person, or anyone with any sense for that matter, ought to listen to a sureno; especially a sureno who was born in the 80’s onward, when it comes to them dropping the real deal on street gang culture, nationally, but more specifically, locally-as it relates to L.A. street gang culture.
They will only give half of the truth, or a distorted truth, or put forth lies, and damn lies.
--if you go to El Salvador today thaey are getting the tattoos we popularized,
*Man, so what?
-white boys getting sleeves liek chicanos -black artists , getting their work done by gangster chicanos from LA .
*Mexicans listening to oldies, which consists mainly of black musicians like Brenton Woods; Mexicans utilizing black slang (not to be confused with calo); listening to, and performing west coast flavoured black rap music, which many of them refer to as “chicano rap,” or “sureno rap;” playing funk; wearing zoot suits and baggy clothing; arrogating gestures and mannerisms from black folks, etc.
Yeah, I know what you mean!
THERE YOU GO~ pulling the race card to discount my arguments ---at the core of this argument is that 1) Mexican gangs that were around at the earliest documentation of black gangs are still around NOW to this day on the very same streets . 2)that you cant copy something when you came first !!