Do Blacks dispute that Mexicans originated LA gang culture??

[~J~]

Simply put, Mexicans adopted certain aspects of black cultural sensibilities, and augmented those sensibilities with their own distinct cultural nuances and brand, whereas in return, black folks adopted some aspects of what Mexicans created

Very well said.

You're pretty much spot on the whole thing, all one has got to do is take a look at Colors made back in 87/88 and you'll see the contrast in dress and demeanor between Bloods/Crips and Cholos you're describing, while there's some similarities there are lots of differences.

The argument between who used the blue and red rag first is interesting, it seem to me that it's a coincidence that both sides picked it up around the same time. you're right in that Nortenos did not wear or sport any red other then a red rag until the 80's when some started dressing up with some red trim here and there and until this very day they might wear a red shirt/sweater or hat but I've never seem one "Flamed up" in spite of what you might see on Youtube.

[TheReal]

Mayugastank, this is for you:

-YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!!........you claim blacks started LA gang culture? get outta here!!.....

*NO FOOL! I DIDN’T SAY BLACK FOLKS STARTED LA GANG CULTURE, BUT I DAM SURE KNOW THAT MEXICANS DIDN’T ORIGINATE EVERYTHING WITHIN L.A. GANG CULTURE, THE WAY MANY OF YOUR PEOPLE CLAIM, and I also know without a shadow of a doubt, that it was black gangs in L.A. THAT PUT L.A. GANGS IN GENERAL, ON THE MAP. With that said, I DON’T BUY INTO THE FALSE, MYTHOLOGICAL HISTORICAL POSITION THAT BLACK GANGS, AND BLACK CULTURE, GOT ALL OF THEIR SHIIT FROM MEXICANS, WHICH IS WHAT MANY OF YOUR PEOPLE CLAIM!

So you get OUTTA HERE!

-name one black gang that existed at the time gangs like MARAVILLA --existed go back even to the 1940s and their isnt one black gang that existed then that still exists now!not one!!

*There were black gangs that existed in L.A., going all the way back to the 1920’s fool! Gangs like the Ludlows, the Boozies, and others (if you don’t believe me, then go read Alonzo’s piece on the history of black gangs, or the book “Have Gun Will Travel”). So later for your false historical, and sureno revisionist presumptions.

And when did Maravilla come around, and are you saying that black gangs in L.A. got started because they were trying to mimic and copy Ese gangs? If this is what you’re saying, then you are most definitely foolhardy in your historical and sociological assessment, as it relates to why certain gangs form in certain neighbourhoods, amongst a particular ethnic or racial group.

-The oldest gang in AMERICA not just california is the alpine street gang going back to the early 1900s that gang still exists to this DAY!

*Man, where do you get your history from? The oldest street gangs in America/U.S.A go back to the mid 19th Century, in New York, amongst the Irish immigrants. Are you getting your interpretation of gang history from the Sureno playbook?

-its roots can be traced to 1909

*The first Irish street gangs can be traced back to the 1840’s, so what’s your point?

-up until about 1980 they had a click that was the O9s ...the MEXICAN MAFIA started in 1959 its roots can be traced to a certain time in history ---the founding member was from HAwaiian GArdens -and an original member PEGLEG MORGAN was 45 years old when he was made a member of the MEXICAN MAFIA in 1969......

*I already know the history of the Mexican Mafia, for surenos like you are always bringing it up in our faces, so what else is new. Or for that matter, what point are you trying to make?

-if he joined his gang at 20 years old

*Okay?

-that would make him a banger since 1949......

*Okay?

-older and longer than ANY black gang in the city of LA to this very day!

*BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLSHIIT! Because as I said before, BLACK GANGS WERE IN EXISTENCE IN L.A., GOING BACK TO THE 1920’S, AND THERE IS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE TO VERIFY ALL OF THIS. Can you present evidence that can, and will deny this? I DON’T THINK SO!

NNNNNEXT!

-THhe oldest gang in AMerican HIstory was the ABC gang a gang compromised by Italians --its roots go to the 1890---so about 20 years older then the oldest mexicang --those ITALIAN gangs dont exist now of course they formed into the COSA NOSTRA.

*WRONG, in the sense that you are confusing street gangs, with organized crime. With street gangs, it was the Irish immigrants during the mid part of the 19th century, and with organized crime, it may have been the Italians that originated this, but I know that Jewish gangsters are highly overlooked.

-BUt the fact of the matter is the oldest --longest standing gang in the the USA is right here in LOS ANGELES--EAST LOS ANGELES. Home of the original gangster culture of the nation ! that culture is compromised primarily of chicanos-who originated the vast majority of what constitutes modern AMERICAN gang culture.

*Let me just stress this one point, seeing as how you’re so full of piss and vinegar, to where you’re trying to throw off your ethnic and racial pride off onto others-I NEVER SAID THAT BLACK GANGS WERE THE FIRST GANGS THAT EVER EXISTED IN THE U.S. So your trip through memory lane, which composed of some true historical moments, as well as spurious historical moments, is a bit trifling and pointless.

Secondly, black gangs in the U.S., as well as other ethnic street gangs, and criminal operations, throughout the U.S., just starting from the early part of the last century, up until now-DIDN’T GET ALL OF THEIR SHIIT, IF ANY OF IT, FROM MEXICAN STREET GANGS FROM OUT WEST; especially those gangs in the Midwest, east coast, and throughout the south, during the 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s. In other words, these ethnic groups or races weren’t waiting on Mexican gangs to show them how to gang bang, or what style they ought to emulate.

Hell, if anything, many of your Mexican brothers got much of their gang shiit, in regards to clothing (i.e. zoot suits, baggy clothing, music, dances, slang, attitude, etc.)- FROM BLACK GANGS/FOLKS, AND OTHER ETHNIC/RACIAL GROUPS.

-The tattoos -old english -block letters --style of writing --caligraphy on the neck

*First of all, Mexicans weren’t the first in this country to start sporting tattoos. Secondly, I never said Mexicans didn’t contribute to modern gang culture. Instead, what I’m combating, is fools like you who claim that black folks never contributed anything to the L.A. gang landscape, and that everything black folks have in L.A., or even across the country, in regards to gang/street culture-WE ORIGINALLY GOT FROM MEXICANS (I wonder how Teddy Roe, Bumpy Johnson, Frank Lucas would feel about this information; or even Al Capone, or Meyer Landsky, or the Dead Rabbit Gang.)

Now as far as old English style of writing, I really can’t say, so I’ll just take your word for that right now, but I do know that much of the slang (not to be confused with Calo), the music you guys listen to, and/or perform; many of the gestures and mannerisms, your folks utilize, etc.-YOU GUYS GOT FROM BLACK GANGS.

As a matter fact, Mexican pachuco gang members from back in the day, during the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, use to heavily copy, aspects of black culture that was in existence during that time, which was highlighted in the dress (i.e. zoot suits), the slang (i.e. words like daddio, cool, give me some skin, what’s happenin’ cat, etc.), as well as the music your folks listened to (i.e. jazz and swing music, as well as music we associate now, with “oldies,” or “lowrider music”).

Now that I think about it, there are articles that detail how Mexican youth during this time period (30’s and 40’s), weary and tired of their parent’s traditional Mexican culture, of which they would adopt “blackness” as new ways of expressing themselves, similar to how many of your folks do today, when it comes to the street slang (not to be confused with calo), stackin’ (hand signifiers/speech), being togged down in blue gear, crip or blood walkin’ (now some surenos are even claiming a “sureno walk”) gestures and mannerisms, and what you guys call “chicano rap,” or “sureno rap,” which is nothing more than repackaged BLACK GANGSTA RAP FROM THE LATE 1980’S, AND EARLY TO MID 90’S.

- --the 3 dots,

*I call this one piece of history potential BULLSHIIT, until you can prove otherwise. I feel that intuitively, you may be wrong on this end.

-baggy clothes—

*BUULLSHIIT! Baggy clothing is what Mexicans arrogated from black folks during the 30’s, and 40’s. High waisted pants, with deep creases; zoot suits, staceys, wide brim hats, and the like-have all been appropriated by Mexicans, from black folks culture during this time period of the 30’s, and 40’s.

-area code as identifiers of gang culture,

*BUUUUUUULLLLLSHIIIT! I can say of a certainty, that black gangs in L.A. were using this means of identifying going all the way back to the early to mid 80’s. Back in the 70’s, 60’s, and even 50’s, NO GANGS, whether they be Mexican, or black, were using area codes as gang identifiers, and you can’t name, or produce one black, or Mexican gang member from the 70’s, and 60’s, that were using their area codes as gang identifiers.

If you can, then I’ll concede this one point, but if you can’t-I’LL JUST RELEGATE THIS TO BUUUUUUULLLLLSSSHHIIIT!

-blue and red flags , you just are ridicolous in saying crips and bloods started flying red and blue before anyone else --how could they when nortenos came before ANY CRIP OR BLOOD SET? and Surenos are double as old as any NORTE gang????

*BUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLSHIIIIT! There are several TALES, on how Mexican gangs first began to sport the blue and the red rags. One source says the prison system in the late 60’s made this distinction between the north and the south, whereas another source says the late 70’s. HOWEVER, I do know that the crips sported the blue in the late 60’s, based on the High School colours of the founding member (go do the research), likewise with the Bloods, and their sporting of red.

(Besides, black folks across the country have always had a headkerchief tradition, for regardless of whether they were field workers, or wearing bandannas to keep their processes in check-BLACK CULTURE HAVE ALWAYS UTILIZED, AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, THE BANDANNA.)

Furthermore, I do know, from an old black gang member who was once a member of “The Blood Alley” gang from the 1950’s, who said that their colour identifier (not rag mind you) was RED. Now mind you, he may be telling me the truth, or not, for when he told me this, he was off on some “youth get their shiit from the old tip”-but nevertheless, this was his position.

Having said that, I can say of a surety, beginning in the 1970’s, that from the 70’s, on up until the early 90’s, MEXICAN GANG MEMBERS WERE HARDLY SPORTING BLUE GEAR, OR USING THE BLUE RAG AS A GANG BANNER AS HEAVILY AS THEY DO TODAY! Now grant it, they may have sported blue rags- BUT THAT WAS ABOUT IT. It was black gang members, during the period of the 70’s and 80’s, and throughout the mid 90’s, who were heavily sporting blue and red gear, and holding up the blue and red rags, AS GANG BANNERS- NOT ESES.

Back in the day (I can only use the 70’s and 80’s, as well as 90’s, as my point of reference), Mexicans mainly wore earth tone colours, such as beige, brown, black, some blue, and white, etc.-THEY WERE HARDLY SPORTING BLUE, OR BLUE BANDANNAS IN A HARDCORE WAY, like the crips, or even bloods, who wore primarily red. As a matter of fact, I remember quite a few surenos sporting brown bandannas, so as to disassociate themselves from black gangs, namely the crips.

All these newfangled modern day surenos out here today, being togged down in all of this blue, is a relatively recent thing, that really took off in the mid 90’s, when they began to get heavily involved in south central black gangsta rap culture and flavor, that emanated from black south central gang culture.

Simply put, the old zoot suit style, and cholo image from the 50’s onwards, deeply listening to oldies, needed to get a cultural boost, from black folks AGAIN, in the form of black west coast gangsta rap flavour, and black south central gang culture.

I may discuss this further on down this post, but for now, let’s proceed further.
-the nortes started wearing red from the moment of their founding....that founding was at least 10 years beofre any crip or blood set in CALI.

*THAT’S BUUUUUUUUULLLLSHIIIT AND YOU KNOW THIS! Can you produce any historical data that effectively lay out the claims you’re making here? Nortes weren’t wearing the color red, from their founding, which was 10 years before the crips and the bloods, seeing as how the only evidence that sides with your sureno version of the matter, states that the blue and the red came about during the very late 60’s, WHICH WASN’T 10 YEARS PRIOR TO THE FOUNDING OF THE CRIPS AND THE BLOODS! Remember, the crips came out during the late 60’s, whereas the bloods were formed during the early 70’s, of which your
mathematical conclusions and timeline, are simply WRONG.

And you do know that there were black gangs in L.A. before the crips and the bloods, right? Whether they are out west, or on the east coast? Now I’m not saying all of this to claim that these gangs were sporting blue and red rags, but it appears that it needs to be put out there, seeing as how modern day surenos like you, who strictly read from the false history of the sureno handbook, seem to believe that the first black gangs in L.A., that ever existed, WERE THE CRIPS AND THE BLOODS, which is-BUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLSSSSSHHHIIIT!

-Gangster culture from california has been copied throughout the nation--blacks from california go anywere in the USA and are well respected and admired-everywere blacks from CALI touch down all other blacks try to emulate their way of dress and style of clothes, and gang identifiers. In New York today their is a strong blood presence , in fact the bloods are tnehe only really established gang in NEw York -with streets -clicks and thousands of members......are you gonna tell me those NYC blacks didnt get that from CAli blacks?

*First of all, there was a black gang culture, and black gangs in existence throughout the Midwest and east coast, prior to the late 80’s, and early 90’s, before the advent of black west coast gangsta rap, which popularized certain aspects of west coast culture, nationwide. Black gangs like the Gangsta Disciples, Vice-Lords, El-Rukns, and other gangs throughout the Midwest, and even east coast, didn’t need west coast flavour when they first hit the scene prior to the 80’s, and the popularity of west coast hip-hop culture.

This just shows how limited your depth of knowledge is when it comes to gang history, especially black gang history, along with your scope. This is also shows that no black person in their right mind should ever listen to a sureno, especially a sureno who was possibly born in the 80’s onward, when it comes to interpreting, or giving a full and accurate historical account, of black gang history, or street gang/organized crime history, in general.

Why? Because much of what they say is anti-historical, and intellectual-BUUUUUUUUUULLLSHHHIIIT!

-and that Cqali blacks didnt adopt ( and change ) the original culture of gang banging from chicanos?

*Fool, I’ve never denied that black gangs out west didn’t appropriate anything from chicano gangs, RATHER, if you take aaaaaaaaaalllllll of my posts within their proper context, instead of eating the meat and spitting out the bones, I’VE ALWAYS SAID THAT BLACK FOLKS ADOPTED ELEMENTS OF CHICANO GANG CULTURE, AND CHANGED SOME OF THOSE ELEMENTS IN ORDER TO FIT IN WITH THEIR OWN CULTURAL ETHOS AND SENSIBILITIES.
I even said the same thing about Mexicans in the 30’s, 40’s, and part of the 50’s, who adopted black styles of dress, music, language, and style, but yet had added their own cultural nuances, in order for what they were adopting, to fit within their own cultural ethos and sensibilities.

Simply put, Mexicans adopted certain aspects of black cultural sensibilities, and augmented those sensibilities with their own distinct cultural nuances and brand, whereas in return, black folks adopted some aspects of what Mexicans created, and from there, formed their own distinct cultural brew, which became the black south central gang mystique, going from the mid 70’s, on up until the early part of the 90’s-with residues lasting strongly until the late 90’s.

And what I’m saying is, from the black south central, gang culture mystique, is what gave modern day surenos like you, the notion to tog yourselves down heavily in blue gear, and proudly proclaim the blue bandanna, as your flag and emblem (your kind wasn’t doing this back in the 70’s and 80’s); sporting bald heads, which your kind began to do heavily, beginning in the mid 90’s, trying to copy black folks, as well as the iconic image of Tupac (your kind wasn’t doing this in the early 90’s, 80’s, and 70’s, downward); stackin’ (your kind wasn’t doing this in the early 90’s, 80’s, and 70’s); listening to, and performing gangsta rap music (your kind didn’t originate this music, nor did you originate the style of music that is commonly classified as oldies, jazz, and swing music, funk, etc.).

I can say more, but let’s proceed further.

-taht "the game ""didnt start getting tatted up on the face and neck from seeing chicanos do that?

*Mexicans didn’t start getting tatted up until they saw white folks, especially sailors, so what’s your point? Remember, it is racist surenos like you, who claim that black folks didn’t create anything culturally, and that everything that Mexicans have, is original, and not borrowed from any source group, whereas my primary position on this site has been to expose how black folks did indeed contribute to street gang culture, primarily L.A. street gang culture, and that not everything Mexicans “originated”, is all that original, nor are their stories all that true.

Also, I’ve been showing how all cultures that live in close proximity to one another, arrogate aspects of the other culture, from off of one another, even on a subconscious level. But of course, racist surenos like you don’t want to hear this, because in your racist, myopic world, where black folks have no culture, and probably no soul-BLACK FOLKS TOOK EVERYTHING THEY HAD FROM MEXICANS, WHEREAS BLACK FOLKS CREATED NOTHING, NOT EVEN THE MUSIC AND STYLE THEY ORIGINATED.

Remember black folks, this is the core of what Mexicans are truly saying about black folks, and WANT TO believe about black folks, which makes much of what they have to say on the matter, an example of taking something with a grain of salt.

-taht gangster blacks in CAli arent getting hit up all over the place and that tatoing culture of the UNITED STATES isnt a primarily -EAST LOS chicano invention?

*Traditional black south central culture from back in the day has been hit up by you modern day surenos, as well as black folks from around the country, but not as strongly as you propose, BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, especially if you look at certain regions of the south. Hell, if anything, west coast gang culture is really beginning to die out, or have lost its prestige, similar to west coast hip-hop, to where you have the west coast emulating folks from the east, and dirty south.

And as far as tats go, again-THEY ARE NOT A “EAST LOS chicano invention”.

- shit!! you are seriously delusional ---up until recently I dint ever see anyone who wasnt chicano and gang affiliated in some way get tattoos ---if you go back to 1990 in the juvenile system there wasnt one black I ever saw with a tattoo period!!

*Now you’re the one who’s truly delusional, and batshiit crazy, BECAUSE I KNOW RELATIVES OF MINE, FROM THE MID 70’S, WHO WERE BLOODS, WHO WOULD SPORT TATS ON THEIR ARMS, IDENTIFYING THEIR GANG AFFILIATION. As a matter of fact, I know you’re doubly lying, or full of it, when you talk about the 80’s specifically, seeing as how I have a relative, who was a member of the BGF from the very early 80’s, WEARING A BGF TATTOO.

And if you want to go tit-for-tat, I bet you didn’t see any Mexican sureno gang member from the 80’s, in the juvenile system-SPORTING A BALDHEAD! I bet you didn’t even know one sureno in the juvenile system, in the 80’s-RAPPING! I even bet you didn’t meet one sureno youth, languishing in the juvenile system, stackin’, sur walkin,’ or being togged down in blue, or red for that matter, and holding up the blue and the red as gang banners, and if you say that you had-I KNOW THAT YOU’RE LYING YOUR AZZ OFF, JUST TO PROVE A POINT.

Talk about delusional?

-now you can go anywere and see whites --asians --blacks with the style of tattooing that chicanos started.The roses --demnons--old english, women, religious icons , caligraphy , back pieces.neck pieces,

*Black folks have always used religious icons in the home, albeit from a primarily protestant perspective, and not Roman Catholic perspective, which is what you’re referring to, when it comes to your point of reference on religious icons, unless you’re talking about some black folks who live in Louisiana, or those black folks, including Haitians, and the like, who use Roman Catholic, and other religious icons, due to their roots in voodoo, or other forms of African ethnic witchcraft.

And what do you mean black gangsters got the utilizing of women as sexual images from Mexicans? Man, have you ever heard of pimps like Ice-Berg Slim, or studied the history of black pimp culture? Have you ever seen blaxploitation movie posters from the 1970’s, or black art from this time period, showing the black female physique-THIS SHIIT DIDN’T START WITH GANGSTA RAP, AND IT MOST DEFINITELY DIDN’T ORIGINATE WITH MEXICANS, FOOL!

Hell, white men had Playboy magazines, calendar girls, movies dealing with naked white women, as well as posters, all throughout the last century. Now that I think about it, all races of men have exploited their women, or women in general, FOOL! They didn’t need Mexican men, or Mexican surenos to give them inspiration.

And you call me delusional?!!!

-tear drops on the face,

*I’ve heard differently, so I’ll say that you may, or may not be right on this one. All I know is that Mexican gangs during the 70’s and 80’s, weren’t wearing tear drops on their faces.

The first time I saw this, it was from a crip, in 1983.

Hell, I saw a lot of things that black gang members did, back in the day, that I never saw Mexican gang members engage in, but now I’m being told that black folks got it from Mexicans. You go figure.

- LA and cali shot oout outs! NOt only did WE start it the entire world copied it

*Man that’s BUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLSSSSSHHIIIIT! Modern day gang drive bys in the last century originated with white organized crime gangs. Al Capone, Bugsy Moran, Dutch Schultz, and the like, were performing drive bys with automatic tommy guns, when ese street gangs were still using knives, pistols, and the occasional shotgun. So don’t even go there with that one.

And furthermore, as far as L.A. gang culture, IT WAS BLACK GANGS IN THE MID TO LATE 70’S, AND ESPECIALLY EARLY 80’S, WHO BEGAN TO USE HEAVILY, AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, TO WHERE THEY REVIVED THE MODERN DAY STREET GANG DRIVE BY! Mexican gangs back in the day, on up until the mid 80’s, only used pistols, knives, and shotguns, ESPECIALLY DURING THE 70’S.

Furthermore, ese gangs back in the day really didn’t perform drive bys. There thing was to sneak upon a house, get out, and shoot into the window, or walk upon an enemy, and shoot, or stab them-THIS IS HOW THEY PREDOMINATELY OPERATED, with few exceptions.
The only time surs may have engaged in drive bys back in the day, is if they were being initiated into a gang, to where they would shoot off into a crowd.
Again, this fool calls me delusional?

This is why I say that no black person, or anyone with any sense for that matter, ought to listen to a sureno; especially a sureno who was born in the 80’s onward, when it comes to them dropping the real deal on street gang culture, nationally, but more specifically, locally-as it relates to L.A. street gang culture.

They will only give half of the truth, or a distorted truth, or put forth lies, and damn lies.

--if you go to El Salvador today thaey are getting the tattoos we popularized,

*Man, so what?

-white boys getting sleeves liek chicanos -black artists , getting their work done by gangster chicanos from LA .

*Mexicans listening to oldies, which consists mainly of black musicians like Brenton Woods; Mexicans utilizing black slang (not to be confused with calo); listening to, and performing west coast flavoured black rap music, which many of them refer to as “chicano rap,” or “sureno rap;” playing funk; wearing zoot suits and baggy clothing; arrogating gestures and mannerisms from black folks, etc.

Yeah, I know what you mean!

THERE YOU GO~ pulling the race card to discount my arguments ---at the core of this argument is that 1) Mexican gangs that were around at the earliest documentation of black gangs are still around NOW to this day on the very same streets . 2)that you cant copy something when you came first !!

I'm not playing the race card, fool- but I know that your half-baked information contains plenty of cards with racial tags attached to them. Secondly, just because a gang is still around from the days of yore (no, that is not a misspelled word), doesn't mean that this gang along the way hasn't been influenced by other outside ethnic/racial cultures.

And man, you don't want to go there with the copying thing, because yesterday I left out a whooooooooole of shiit I could've said.

[TheReal]

Simply put, Mexicans adopted certain aspects of black cultural sensibilities, and augmented those sensibilities with their own distinct cultural nuances and brand, whereas in return, black folks adopted some aspects of what Mexicans created

Very well said.

You're pretty much spot on the whole thing, all one has got to do is take a look at Colors made back in 87/88 and you'll see the contrast in dress and demeanor between Bloods/Crips and Cholos you're describing, while there's some similarities there are lots of differences.

The argument between who used the blue and red rag first is interesting, it seem to me that it's a coincidence that both sides picked it up around the same time. you're right in that Nortenos did not wear or sport any red other then a red rag until the 80's when some started dressing up with some red trim here and there and until this very day they might wear a red shirt/sweater or hat but I've never seem one "Flamed up" in spite of what you might see on Youtube.

J, it's all about remembering the times you grew up in, and honestly reflecting on them from memory. I myself can only go as far back as the 70's, because that's when I'm became self-aware, and aware of things in general. And yes, the movie "Colors" is a good reference point, along with this one doc they did on some Crip set in Compton, back in the mid 80's. It was done by some British filmmaker. You can probably catch it on Youtube.

(Also, check out modern day black gang docs like "Bastards To the Party," or "Crips and Bloods: Made in America.")

In this film, along with "Colors," old photos, and ese movies such as "Walk Proud," "Boulevard Nights," and the like, you will see the similiarities in ese gangs and black gangs, but you will also notice the differences in style, and dress, including the emphasis by black gangs on the colors of red and blue.

[TheReal]

All in all, my summation of the matter (unless I need to respond to a particular post) is that-every group has copied something from the other group, living in close proximity to them, whether it be intentional, or unintentional; subconsciously or consciously. No racial group is an island unto themselves, and passes before others without partaking of some of the other group's residue.

Surenos can talk about tats, lowriders, olde english writing and certain clothing items all they want to, but I as a black person can talk about street slang (not to be confused with calo); certain ebonicized words (e.g. lil', foo, stank, etc.); music (e.g. r&b, hip-hop, funk, blues, etc.); dances (e.g. breaking, pop-locking, etc.); physical gestures and mannerisms; hip-hop deejaying and scratching; zoot suits; and a host of other things that mexicans appropriated from black culture.

Again, I'm not trying to do a tit for tat scenario, because again, I recognize what eses have brought to the table, culturally- some of which has influenced black culture. BUT COME ON MAN, are folks going to tell me that eses haven't been influenced by the aforementioned things I laid out from black culture, and that everything, when it comes to arrogating, and feeding off of another culture, just falls on the shoulders of black folks? GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT!

When it all boils down to it, eses got some shiit that black folks have liked, and likewise black folks have got some shiit that eses have liked. One can argue that one side loves the other side's shiit more than the other, and there may be a case for that-but all in all, both sides were inspired by one another, and anyone with a lick of sense in them, will admit this, and just call it a day.

Granted, if they don't want to take that approach, then at the very least, this discussion ought to be acknowledged as a mexican standoff (no pun intended)-unless you're a SUPREME AZZHOLE WITH AN AXE TO GRIND!

[Jupebox]

Whoop there it is....its a wrap....

[mayugastank]

All in all, my summation of the matter (unless I need to respond to a particular post) is that-every group has copied something from the other group, living in close proximity to them, whether it be intentional, or unintentional; subconsciously or consciously. No racial group is an island unto themselves, and passes before others without partaking of some of the other group's residue.

Surenos can talk about tats, lowriders, olde english writing and certain clothing items all they want to, but I as a black person can talk about street slang (not to be confused with calo); certain ebonicized words (e.g. lil', foo, stank, etc.); music (e.g. r&b, hip-hop, funk, blues, etc.); dances (e.g. breaking, pop-locking, etc.); physical gestures and mannerisms; hip-hop deejaying and scratching; zoot suits; and a host of other things that mexicans appropriated from black culture.

Again, I'm not trying to do a tit for tat scenario, because again, I recognize what eses have brought to the table, culturally- some of which has influenced black culture. BUT COME ON MAN, are folks going to tell me that eses haven't been influenced by the aforementioned things I laid out from black culture, and that everything, when it comes to arrogating, and feeding off of another culture, just falls on the shoulders of black folks? GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT!

When it all boils down to it, eses got some shiit that black folks have liked, and likewise black folks have got some shiit that eses have liked. One can argue that one side loves the other side's shiit more than the other, and there may be a case for that-but all in all, both sides were inspired by one another, and anyone with a lick of sense in them, will admit this, and just call it a day.

Granted, if they don't want to take that approach, then at the very least, this discussion ought to be acknowledged as a mexican standoff (no pun intended)-unless you're a SUPREME AZZHOLE WITH AN AXE TO GRIND!

I am not saying blacks dont have their culture -but i do gotta say that ---that the mexican culture and the chicano one are two seperate things........at times it seems like we arent even the same race!!just like a black from AFRICA and a black from the states.Irregardless I will not concede on some very very important issues ---the blue and red flag thing ----its too coincidental and it has defined both the crips and bloods COMPLETELY!! you claim to see Surenos today sporting blue -from head to toe, but I still havent seen what your saying --Mexicans in general dont wear colors UNLESS they are from some way out lil town were they watch too much TV ....a sureno has no need to sport BLUE if all his enemies wear blue, also ! Most Surenos will never meet a Norteno until they reach the state pen.Chicanos have no need to sport a rag that means nothing on the streets. The cyprus Avenues sport a red rag to identify their gang--yet they are surenos.--They colors appropriated by SUR and NORTE are colors of war in the pen, they have always used those colors. The first meeting of NUESTRA FAMILIA -shows them holding the Farm Worker bird(huelga bird) drenched in a red rag ---the color of this bird has always been RED. That photo is 10 years older then any crip or blood set.The black gangs you name ---are non existant now , just like the bible , only an unbroken chain can lead to historical facts...tracing the root of a gang to when it was formed to were it is now ---for blacks that chain starts in the 60s and for mexicans it starts all the way to the 1910s...........in east LA. Word of mouth you use to back up your historical account I can also use , a black OG from dogtown crips --the first crips told me of living in East LA next to the Clovers and Avenues and DOGTOWN and of seeing the ESEs sporting their brim hats and low riders --and taking that style and givng it the BLACK SWAG, he also told me of having beef between the two races even in the 50s at the high schools they both attended. The black gangs you name from NYC and CHI dont have a longer history then their counterparts in LA -Southern gangs dont have a longer more organized history either. Texas mexicans and Arizona mexicans dont have the history LA gangs have either ---did you know they arent SUrenos or Nortenos in Texas? Pachucos from Texas have been around longer then Pachucos in Cali, the city of El PASO ,Texas is known as CHUCO TOWN . The irish you name arent around either. My historical memory which goes to the 70s also , tells me of never really seeing any race outside of mexicans getting tatted up --our designs and messages are unique solely to us. Area codes as identifiers were used back in the 60s as I personally know an OG from florencia who is 70 now with the numbers of that time tattoed across his knuckles. Mexican Gangs are broken up into groups in the pen, you have the EAST LOS boys , WEST LOS, NELA , AHrbor and on and on .The braking up into controllable groups was a way for each CAR to regulate itself. The EAST LOS car always had the most history and mafia ties of any other car . It is very common to see OG mexicans in their 80s locked up. I have never witnessed a black OG at that age.I will state clearly and without doubt that the olest gangs in AMERICA PERIOD are mexican and are in EAST LA. This out of ANY RACIAL group.

[mayugastank]

All in all, my summation of the matter (unless I need to respond to a particular post) is that-every group has copied something from the other group, living in close proximity to them, whether it be intentional, or unintentional; subconsciously or consciously. No racial group is an island unto themselves, and passes before others without partaking of some of the other group's residue.

Surenos can talk about tats, lowriders, olde english writing and certain clothing items all they want to, but I as a black person can talk about street slang (not to be confused with calo); certain ebonicized words (e.g. lil', foo, stank, etc.); music (e.g. r&b, hip-hop, funk, blues, etc.); dances (e.g. breaking, pop-locking, etc.); physical gestures and mannerisms; hip-hop deejaying and scratching; zoot suits; and a host of other things that mexicans appropriated from black culture.

Again, I'm not trying to do a tit for tat scenario, because again, I recognize what eses have brought to the table, culturally- some of which has influenced black culture. BUT COME ON MAN, are folks going to tell me that eses haven't been influenced by the aforementioned things I laid out from black culture, and that everything, when it comes to arrogating, and feeding off of another culture, just falls on the shoulders of black folks? GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT!

When it all boils down to it, eses got some shiit that black folks have liked, and likewise black folks have got some shiit that eses have liked. One can argue that one side loves the other side's shiit more than the other, and there may be a case for that-but all in all, both sides were inspired by one another, and anyone with a lick of sense in them, will admit this, and just call it a day.

Granted, if they don't want to take that approach, then at the very least, this discussion ought to be acknowledged as a mexican standoff (no pun intended)-unless you're a SUPREME AZZHOLE WITH AN AXE TO GRIND!

I am not saying blacks dont have their culture -but i do gotta say that ---that the mexican culture and the chicano one are two seperate things........at times it seems like we arent even the same race!!just like a black from AFRICA and a black from the states.Irregardless I will not concede on some very very important issues ---the blue and red flag thing ----its too coincidental and it has defined both the crips and bloods COMPLETELY!! you claim to see Surenos today sporting blue -from head to toe, but I still havent seen what your saying --Mexicans in general dont wear colors UNLESS they are from some way out lil town were they watch too much TV ....a sureno has no need to sport BLUE if all his enemies wear blue, also ! Most Surenos will never meet a Norteno until they reach the state pen.Chicanos have no need to sport a rag that means nothing on the streets. The cyprus Avenues sport a red rag to identify their gang--yet they are surenos.--They colors appropriated by SUR and NORTE are colors of war in the pen, they have always used those colors. The first meeting of NUESTRA FAMILIA -shows them holding the Farm Worker bird(huelga bird) drenched in a red rag ---the color of this bird has always been RED. That photo is 10 years older then any crip or blood set.The black gangs you name ---are non existant now , just like the bible , only an unbroken chain can lead to historical facts...tracing the root of a gang to when it was formed to were it is now ---for blacks that chain starts in the 60s and for mexicans it starts all the way to the 1910s...........in east LA. Word of mouth you use to back up your historical account I can also use , a black OG from dogtown crips --the first crips told me of living in East LA next to the Clovers and Avenues and DOGTOWN and of seeing the ESEs sporting their brim hats and low riders --and taking that style and givng it the BLACK SWAG, he also told me of having beef between the two races even in the 50s at the high schools they both attended. The black gangs you name from NYC and CHI dont have a longer history then their counterparts in LA -Southern gangs dont have a longer more organized history either. Texas mexicans and Arizona mexicans dont have the history LA gangs have either ---did you know they arent SUrenos or Nortenos in Texas? Pachucos from Texas have been around longer then Pachucos in Cali, the city of El PASO ,Texas is known as CHUCO TOWN . The irish you name arent around either. My historical memory which goes to the 70s also , tells me of never really seeing any race outside of mexicans getting tatted up --our designs and messages are unique solely to us. Area codes as identifiers were used back in the 60s as I personally know an OG from florencia who is 70 now with the numbers of that time tattoed across his knuckles. Mexican Gangs are broken up into groups in the pen, you have the EAST LOS boys , WEST LOS, NELA , AHrbor and on and on .The braking up into controllable groups was a way for each CAR to regulate itself. The EAST LOS car always had the most history and mafia ties of any other car . It is very common to see OG mexicans in their 80s locked up. I have never witnessed a black OG at that age.I will state clearly and without doubt that the olest gangs in AMERICA PERIOD are mexican and are in EAST LA. This out of ANY RACIAL group.

[perongregory]

The oldest modern gangs in the states are Los Angeles Mexican Gangs, but LOS Mexican gangs aren't the oldest gangs.

The C's and B's didn't get their rags from Mexicans, the original crips were teenagers, I don't think they even hit the pen, to witness all that Norte vs. Sur pedo. Black gangsters had the brim hat too, what do you think the BRIMS gang predating b's and c's refers to.

And NELA is a latin area, so of course any black gangs there are going to follow Mexicans. SLA is the home of the black gangster and his culture, and that's why Mexican gangs in SLA have mas estilo negro.

[mayugastank]

The oldest modern gangs in the states are Los Angeles Mexican Gangs, but LOS Mexican gangs aren't the oldest gangs.

The C's and B's didn't get their rags from Mexicans, the original crips were teenagers, I don't think they even hit the pen, to witness all that Norte vs. Sur pedo. Black gangsters had the brim hat too, what do you think the BRIMS gang predating b's and c's refers to.

And NELA is a latin area, so of course any black gangs there are going to follow Mexicans. SLA is the home of the black gangster and his culture, and that's why Mexican gangs in SLA have mas estilo negro.

This guy -the real is not being real ---he now claims I want to take everything from black culture I dont believe there exists a mexican stupid enough to argue that Blacks didnt invented rap ---you got mexican rappers(rolls eyes>) but they didnt start anything ---and too put it honestly when I see or hear them I kinda cringe --its like the movie were the white boy is trying to be black. Its really pathetic -but to each his own. I wonder if mexican rappers realize how stupid they look???lol.....sorry chino grande!!I recently watched LAGUNA BEACH and saw all those white boys with there cut off shorts and socks pulled up<rolls eyes>.............I guess mexicans are gonna have to argue about who started that now too!!Mexican East LA gangs have set alot of trends that people use all thru the nation and not just blacks --the tattoing en masse I still say is solely mexican american and east los angeleno ~ I guess the oldest tattooed people were in polynesia but the form of writing and designs that the VAST majority of people use now in the USA are completely mexican -the roses for bitches ,butterflies, women tattoed on arms , the gang hit ups on the head, face neck , the fancy handwritting Eminem uses, the area code shot outs, murals on the back , RIP tattoes , MOM , on and on .........shit my brothers ere taggers in the 90s and I can say they dressed nothing like blacks at all, the oversized 40 pants and shell shock addidas , the bright green shirts with the spray cans designed on them , the long pony tail at the top of the head(which they got from nortenos) the earrings , multi colored hair . See man this guy is saying I am taking all the blacks credit but what I am saying is that as far as hip hop and shit goes BLACKS COMPLETELY OWN IT !! completely. And now hes trying to take one of the only things we have ---its like the dude with the flock of sheep: who kills his neighbors only sheep to throw a BBQ. He wants it all! He doesnt even want to give us what is ours....blacks already got all the attention and national prestige ---alot of the style -that brought them fame was borrowed from EAST LOS ---Los Angelenos are trend setters~ and particluarly chicanos in EAST LA are unique --and he doesnt acknowledge any of it ----anything I say he says black started first ----he is the man with the pocket of money that robs the bum on the street corner ---he is on a war footing and its obvious he wants to take one of the only things we got . He doesnt do alot of acknowledgment our way----shit now hes saying that blacks started the modern day tattoing gangster culture ----he wants the 3 dots and tear drosp and old english ----even thugh the majority of blacks are too dark to even get tattoed. I knew a dude from 62 brims with BRIMS tattoed across his entire neck , every time i saw him he reminded me of a mexican as i had hardly ever seen a black guy tattoed like that. But now hes saying we copied that from blacks also. I dont know but he sounds completely racist and then tries to call me a racist for stating anything street wise as ours!! what a joke ! its like he thinks im trying to steal jazz, gumbo, fried chicken,gospel music, hip hop , craps, street slang , pimpin' , motown -..........when those things are clearly black. I feel like the same but in reverse, I guess he is gonna say that blacks invented TACOS and BURRITOS next.

[perongregory]

I feel you but this overcompensation always occurs when people lie so much about history in the first place. You may be giving credit but TheReal and I and alot of blacks have had Mexicans on here (and in real life) telling us basically blacks aint shit and we got everything from Chicanos. What we should really say is the down south and east coast blacks got some gang influence from WC blacks by proxy of Chicano influences, but hell East coast and midwest blacks have been influencing Mexicans and alot more, by proxy of WC blacks for decades -with slang, zoot suits, oldies, hip hop and hip hop grafitti (not taking away from chicno gang grafitti) etc. And its hard to put blacks up against Mexicans, because a multitude of blacks influence American culture not just AA's (as we know NY the other major trendsetter has many blacks from the islands, and Latin America), but its not like latinos under one banner are influencing american culture, it's Mexicans, or PR's, or Cubans, etc.

[~J~]

Surenos can talk about tats, lowriders, olde english writing and certain clothing items all they want to, but I as a black person can talk about street slang (not to be confused with calo); certain ebonicized words (e.g. lil', foo, stank, etc.); music (e.g. r&b, hip-hop, funk, blues, etc.); dances (e.g. breaking, pop-locking, etc.); physical gestures and mannerisms; hip-hop deejaying and scratching; zoot suits; and a host of other things that mexicans appropriated from black culture.

mayugastank, the first line above I believe is him giving credit, subtle but nevertheless giving dues. he said he's more on the defense because of him experiences, but acknowledged Chicanos contribution more in the last few posts then I ever recall. maybe you're not following what he's saying, look at the heart of the matter on what he wrote from a neutral perspective...

[TheReal]

Mayuga, you’re a damn fool racist, and that’s keeping it REAL! The truth of the matter is, FOOL, I did acknowledge the shitt that black folks out west have been influenced by, when it comes to ese/chicano gang culture. What it is, is that you’re such a racist bastard, to where you don’t even want to acknowledge that your kind has been influenced by black culture-IN THE LEAST BIT (not only that, surs mainly want black folks in L.A. to admit to having taken everything, as it relates to street and gang culture, from them; truth be told-that’s what they’re really aiming for). Your basic problem lies in the fact that you want the world to believe that every single cultural nuance, as it relates to street and gang culture out your way-CAME FROM MEXICANS, AND MEXICANS SOLELY, AND THAT BLACKS HAD NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL, BUT THEFT FROM THE MEXICANS, AND POPULARIZING MEXICAN SHIIT! You don’t want to admit that black folks, despite appropriating certain aspects of chicano culture, added their own distinct flavor and funk, to where their shitt became unique and solely theirs. In other words, there are certain things that black folks created, despite appropriating shitt from your people, that your folks had nothing to do with; but you see, you and your brothers and sisters find it damn hard to even want to acknowledge that.

Hell, I even said over and over again, that despite the shiitt that Mexicans appropriated from black folks, Mexicans created their own unique brand, by adding their cultural accoutrements onto it. Again, I’ve always acknowledged this, but what it is, is that many of your people are always claiming, whether it be in cyberspace, or in real life, that black folks have no culture at all, whatsoever, and THAT THEY NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING TO L.A. STREET, AND GANG CULTURE, which again-IS BUUUUUUUULLLLLLSSSHHIIIIIIT, AND DAMN LIES!

I’m not trying to take shiit from your people, but I damn sure know that many of your sureno brethren, who are always trying to force your Mexican pride down our throats, are always implying that we’re inferior, sub-human, and don’t have any culture. Fools like you are constantly reminding us of shiit we got from your peeps-some of it’s true, some of its BS-but damn-WHEN ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT YOU GOT FROM US, INSTEAD OF ALWAYS HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WE SUPPOSEDLY STOLE FROM YOUR KIND! Hell, if you left it to many of your sureno kind, you would think that black folks stole WEST COAST GANGSTA RAP, OR OLDIES MUSIC, FROM YOUR PEOPLE-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT!

Those surs who think like you are trying to rob black folks of their own culture and self-esteem, and all I’m doing is balancing out the bullshiit, by acknowledging ese shit, but at the same time, RECOGNIZING THE UNIQUE CULTURE, STYLE, AND ETHOS OF BLACK GANG, AND STREET CULTURE IN L.A., THAT WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED, IF LEFT TO ESES ALONE! But hell, every time I try and balance the scales, FOOLS LIKE YOU PLAY THE RACE CARD, OR GET YOUR PANTIES ALL CAUGHT UP IN A BUNCH, because even though deep down, folks who think like you don’t consider yourself to be racist, that’s what you essentially are-BECAUSE ESES LIKE YOU HATE TO GIVE FOLKS YOU THINK YOU’RE BETTER THAN, CREDIT FOR SHIIIT!

Surenos such as yourself, or southsiders such as yourself, can be some petty and jealous kind of folks. Surs like you are lying on black folks across the internet, and any venue you guys can afford, or to any ahistorical sucker who doesn’t know any better.
And stop lying fool- I never said black folks codified, or created the old English alphabet characters. Now having said that, Mexicans didn’t create that type of writing, but more than likely, they codified it as a part of their sur gang culture. I can’t speak on that for sure. And as far as the three dots, hell yeah I’m going to question that shiit from what I’ve seen growing up, just like I will question the myth that black folks got the sporting of baldheads from eses-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIT! Why? Because I remember, seeing the three dot configuration, in the very late 70’s, emanating from black gangs. The only time I saw anything concerning three dots at all, coming from eses, was in the late 80’s. Furthermore, I could’ve sworn I saw an episode of “Gangland,” where they were discussing an old black gang from Chicago, that originated in the late 60’s, which had nothing to do with the later west coast hip-hop influences, utilizing the three dot thing. But maybe my memory is somewhat muddled at this point-you go figure.

And the same thing with the teardrops-the first bangers I saw with the tear drop thing-WAS CRIPS IN THE EARLY 80’S. Now did eses come up with this prior to this time, MAYBE, but I’ve seen aloooooooooot of surs during the 80’s, and besides many of them not sporting baldheads; being togged down in blue, dressing like crips; sur walking (which is what surs got from black gangs), stackin’, and a host of other shiit-I AIN’T NEVER SEEN A ONE SPORTING TEAR DROP TATTOOS. Mind you, this isn’t to say that eses didn’t come up with this, I’m just saying that throughout the 70’s, and much of the 80’s, from my recollections, eses didn’t sport the 3 teardrops. Now eses did codify the smile now, and cry later image, as far as tats, and gang icons go, but the teardrop, and the three dotted pyramid configuration-I honestly don’t know…

Furthermore, I never denied that ese gangs didn’t tat up as part of their codified gang culture, but what I am saying is, that historically, it was white folks, mainly white sailors and merchant marine folks from this country, travelling throughout the South Pacific, who brought tat wearing to this country, and not eses, or more specifically-EAST L.A.
Again, with the fear of sounding redundant and like a broken record, I do acknowledge that black folks appropriated shiit from the eses, only to add their own distinct cultural flavor and funk, which created something that was new and unique, but likewise, I have acknowledged that eses acquired shiit from black folks, and in the process, added their own unique cultural stamp and brand.

But I guess the crime in what I’m saying, lies in the fact that I’m forthrightly stating that eses got anything from black folks. I realize that with many of you, this admission irks you to no end, seeing as how many of you southsiders have a blood feud with black folks, to where you’d want to vomit just thinking about this truth- but yet I’m the racist? As I said before, so say I now and again-I’m just balancing out the shiit your people have been throwing my people’s way, with your one-sided attacks, and half-truths, as well as damn lies, when it comes to what we supposedly stole from your kind, by hampering on what black folks created that was unique to the L.A. gang and street cultural landscape, while highlighting what your peeps have taken from black folks; especially the modern day surs who’ve taken a lot of their swagger, style and dress, including gestures and mannerisms, the dance movements and music-FROM BLACK SOUTH CENTRAL GANG CULTURE FROM THE 90’S, NAMELY THE CRIPS (many surs back in the day use to watch those black west coast, south central inspired, rap videos, including rap videos by Tupac, and got a lot of their modern day style from them; these black west coast rap videos, emanating from the 90’s, is what modernized sur gang culture, and brought them into the hip-hop age).

You can deny this all you want to, but deep down-YOU KNOW I’M TELLING THE TRUTH.

[TheReal]

Mayuga, you’re a damn fool racist, and that’s keeping it REAL! The truth of the matter is, FOOL, I did acknowledge the shitt that black folks out west have been influenced by, when it comes to ese/chicano gang culture. What it is, is that you’re such a racist bastard, to where you don’t even want to acknowledge that your kind has been influenced by black culture-IN THE LEAST BIT (not only that, surs mainly want black folks in L.A. to admit to having taken everything, as it relates to street and gang culture, from them; truth be told-that’s what they’re really aiming for). Your basic problem lies in the fact that you want the world to believe that every single cultural nuance, as it relates to street and gang culture out your way-CAME FROM MEXICANS, AND MEXICANS SOLELY, AND THAT BLACKS HAD NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL, BUT THEFT FROM THE MEXICANS, AND POPULARIZING MEXICAN SHIIT! You don’t want to admit that black folks, despite appropriating certain aspects of chicano culture, added their own distinct flavor and funk, to where their shitt became unique and solely theirs. In other words, there are certain things that black folks created, despite appropriating shitt from your people, that your folks had nothing to do with; but you see, you and your brothers and sisters find it damn hard to even want to acknowledge that.

Hell, I even said over and over again, that despite the shiitt that Mexicans appropriated from black folks, Mexicans created their own unique brand, by adding their cultural accoutrements onto it. Again, I’ve always acknowledged this, but what it is, is that many of your people are always claiming, whether it be in cyberspace, or in real life, that black folks have no culture at all, whatsoever, and THAT THEY NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING TO L.A. STREET, AND GANG CULTURE, which again-IS BUUUUUUUULLLLLLSSSHHIIIIIIT, AND DAMN LIES!

I’m not trying to take shiit from your people, but I damn sure know that many of your sureno brethren, who are always trying to force your Mexican pride down our throats, are always implying that we’re inferior, sub-human, and don’t have any culture. Fools like you are constantly reminding us of shiit we got from your peeps-some of it’s true, some of its BS-but damn-WHEN ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT YOU GOT FROM US, INSTEAD OF ALWAYS HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WE SUPPOSEDLY STOLE FROM YOUR KIND! Hell, if you left it to many of your sureno kind, you would think that black folks stole WEST COAST GANGSTA RAP, OR OLDIES MUSIC, FROM YOUR PEOPLE-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT!

Those surs who think like you are trying to rob black folks of their own culture and self-esteem, and all I’m doing is balancing out the bullshiit, by acknowledging ese shit, but at the same time, RECOGNIZING THE UNIQUE CULTURE, STYLE, AND ETHOS OF BLACK GANG, AND STREET CULTURE IN L.A., THAT WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED, IF LEFT TO ESES ALONE! But hell, every time I try and balance the scales, FOOLS LIKE YOU PLAY THE RACE CARD, OR GET YOUR PANTIES ALL CAUGHT UP IN A BUNCH, because even though deep down, folks who think like you don’t consider yourself to be racist, that’s what you essentially are-BECAUSE ESES LIKE YOU HATE TO GIVE FOLKS YOU THINK YOU’RE BETTER THAN, CREDIT FOR SHIIIT!

Surenos such as yourself, or southsiders such as yourself, can be some petty and jealous kind of folks. Surs like you are lying on black folks across the internet, and any venue you guys can afford, or to any ahistorical sucker who doesn’t know any better.
And stop lying fool- I never said black folks codified, or created the old English alphabet characters. Now having said that, Mexicans didn’t create that type of writing, but more than likely, they codified it as a part of their sur gang culture. I can’t speak on that for sure. And as far as the three dots, hell yeah I’m going to question that shiit from what I’ve seen growing up, just like I will question the myth that black folks got the sporting of baldheads from eses-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIT! Why? Because I remember, seeing the three dot configuration, in the very late 70’s, emanating from black gangs. The only time I saw anything concerning three dots at all, coming from eses, was in the late 80’s. Furthermore, I could’ve sworn I saw an episode of “Gangland,” where they were discussing an old black gang from Chicago, that originated in the late 60’s, which had nothing to do with the later west coast hip-hop influences, utilizing the three dot thing. But maybe my memory is somewhat muddled at this point-you go figure.

And the same thing with the teardrops-the first bangers I saw with the tear drop thing-WAS CRIPS IN THE EARLY 80’S. Now did eses come up with this prior to this time, MAYBE, but I’ve seen aloooooooooot of surs during the 80’s, and besides many of them not sporting baldheads; being togged down in blue, dressing like crips; sur walking (which is what surs got from black gangs), stackin’, and a host of other shiit-I AIN’T NEVER SEEN A ONE SPORTING TEAR DROP TATTOOS. Mind you, this isn’t to say that eses didn’t come up with this, I’m just saying that throughout the 70’s, and much of the 80’s, from my recollections, eses didn’t sport the 3 teardrops. Now eses did codify the smile now, and cry later image, as far as tats, and gang icons go, but the teardrop, and the three dotted pyramid configuration-I honestly don’t know…

Furthermore, I never denied that ese gangs didn’t tat up as part of their codified gang culture, but what I am saying is, that historically, it was white folks, mainly white sailors and merchant marine folks from this country, travelling throughout the South Pacific, who brought tat wearing to this country, and not eses, or more specifically-EAST L.A.
Again, with the fear of sounding redundant and like a broken record, I do acknowledge that black folks appropriated shiit from the eses, only to add their own distinct cultural flavor and funk, which created something that was new and unique, but likewise, I have acknowledged that eses acquired shiit from black folks, and in the process, added their own unique cultural stamp and brand.

But I guess the crime in what I’m saying, lies in the fact that I’m forthrightly stating that eses got anything from black folks. I realize that with many of you, this admission irks you to no end, seeing as how many of you southsiders have a blood feud with black folks, to where you’d want to vomit just thinking about this truth- but yet I’m the racist? As I said before, so say I now and again-I’m just balancing out the shiit your people have been throwing my people’s way, with your one-sided attacks, and half-truths, as well as damn lies, when it comes to what we supposedly stole from your kind, by hampering on what black folks created that was unique to the L.A. gang and street cultural landscape, while highlighting what your peeps have taken from black folks; especially the modern day surs who’ve taken a lot of their swagger, style and dress, including gestures and mannerisms, the dance movements and music-FROM BLACK SOUTH CENTRAL GANG CULTURE FROM THE 90’S, NAMELY THE CRIPS (many surs back in the day use to watch those black west coast, south central inspired, rap videos, including rap videos by Tupac, and got a lot of their modern day style from them; these black west coast rap videos, emanating from the 90’s, is what modernized sur gang culture, and brought them into the hip-hop age).

You can deny this all you want to, but deep down-YOU KNOW I’M TELLING THE TRUTH.

[TheReal]

Mayuga, you’re a damn fool racist, and that’s keeping it REAL! The truth of the matter is, FOOL, I did acknowledge the shitt that black folks out west have been influenced by, when it comes to ese/chicano gang culture. What it is, is that you’re such a racist bastard, to where you don’t even want to acknowledge that your kind has been influenced by black culture-IN THE LEAST BIT (not only that, surs mainly want black folks in L.A. to admit to having taken everything, as it relates to street and gang culture, from them; truth be told-that’s what they’re really aiming for). Your basic problem lies in the fact that you want the world to believe that every single cultural nuance, as it relates to street and gang culture out your way-CAME FROM MEXICANS, AND MEXICANS SOLELY, AND THAT BLACKS HAD NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL, BUT THEFT FROM THE MEXICANS, AND POPULARIZING MEXICAN SHIIT! You don’t want to admit that black folks, despite appropriating certain aspects of chicano culture, added their own distinct flavor and funk, to where their shitt became unique and solely theirs. In other words, there are certain things that black folks created, despite appropriating shitt from your people, that your folks had nothing to do with; but you see, you and your brothers and sisters find it damn hard to even want to acknowledge that.

Hell, I even said over and over again, that despite the shiitt that Mexicans appropriated from black folks, Mexicans created their own unique brand, by adding their cultural accoutrements onto it. Again, I’ve always acknowledged this, but what it is, is that many of your people are always claiming, whether it be in cyberspace, or in real life, that black folks have no culture at all, whatsoever, and THAT THEY NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING TO L.A. STREET, AND GANG CULTURE, which again-IS BUUUUUUUULLLLLLSSSHHIIIIIIT, AND DAMN LIES!

I’m not trying to take shiit from your people, but I damn sure know that many of your sureno brethren, who are always trying to force your Mexican pride down our throats, are always implying that we’re inferior, sub-human, and don’t have any culture. Fools like you are constantly reminding us of shiit we got from your peeps-some of it’s true, some of its BS-but damn-WHEN ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT YOU GOT FROM US, INSTEAD OF ALWAYS HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WE SUPPOSEDLY STOLE FROM YOUR KIND! Hell, if you left it to many of your sureno kind, you would think that black folks stole WEST COAST GANGSTA RAP, OR OLDIES MUSIC, FROM YOUR PEOPLE-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT!

Those surs who think like you are trying to rob black folks of their own culture and self-esteem, and all I’m doing is balancing out the bullshiit, by acknowledging ese shit, but at the same time, RECOGNIZING THE UNIQUE CULTURE, STYLE, AND ETHOS OF BLACK GANG, AND STREET CULTURE IN L.A., THAT WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED, IF LEFT TO ESES ALONE! But hell, every time I try and balance the scales, FOOLS LIKE YOU PLAY THE RACE CARD, OR GET YOUR PANTIES ALL CAUGHT UP IN A BUNCH, because even though deep down, folks who think like you don’t consider yourself to be racist, that’s what you essentially are-BECAUSE ESES LIKE YOU HATE TO GIVE FOLKS YOU THINK YOU’RE BETTER THAN, CREDIT FOR SHIIIT!

Surenos such as yourself, or southsiders such as yourself, can be some petty and jealous kind of folks. Surs like you are lying on black folks across the internet, and any venue you guys can afford, or to any ahistorical sucker who doesn’t know any better.
And stop lying fool- I never said black folks codified, or created the old English alphabet characters. Now having said that, Mexicans didn’t create that type of writing, but more than likely, they codified it as a part of their sur gang culture. I can’t speak on that for sure. And as far as the three dots, hell yeah I’m going to question that shiit from what I’ve seen growing up, just like I will question the myth that black folks got the sporting of baldheads from eses-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIT! Why? Because I remember, seeing the three dot configuration, in the very late 70’s, emanating from black gangs. The only time I saw anything concerning three dots at all, coming from eses, was in the late 80’s. Furthermore, I could’ve sworn I saw an episode of “Gangland,” where they were discussing an old black gang from Chicago, that originated in the late 60’s, which had nothing to do with the later west coast hip-hop influences, utilizing the three dot thing. But maybe my memory is somewhat muddled at this point-you go figure.

And the same thing with the teardrops-the first bangers I saw with the tear drop thing-WAS CRIPS IN THE EARLY 80’S. Now did eses come up with this prior to this time, MAYBE, but I’ve seen aloooooooooot of surs during the 80’s, and besides many of them not sporting baldheads; being togged down in blue, dressing like crips; sur walking (which is what surs got from black gangs), stackin’, and a host of other shiit-I AIN’T NEVER SEEN A ONE SPORTING TEAR DROP TATTOOS. Mind you, this isn’t to say that eses didn’t come up with this, I’m just saying that throughout the 70’s, and much of the 80’s, from my recollections, eses didn’t sport the 3 teardrops. Now eses did codify the smile now, and cry later image, as far as tats, and gang icons go, but the teardrop, and the three dotted pyramid configuration-I honestly don’t know…

Furthermore, I never denied that ese gangs didn’t tat up as part of their codified gang culture, but what I am saying is, that historically, it was white folks, mainly white sailors and merchant marine folks from this country, travelling throughout the South Pacific, who brought tat wearing to this country, and not eses, or more specifically-EAST L.A.
Again, with the fear of sounding redundant and like a broken record, I do acknowledge that black folks appropriated shiit from the eses, only to add their own distinct cultural flavor and funk, which created something that was new and unique, but likewise, I have acknowledged that eses acquired shiit from black folks, and in the process, added their own unique cultural stamp and brand.

But I guess the crime in what I’m saying, lies in the fact that I’m forthrightly stating that eses got anything from black folks. I realize that with many of you, this admission irks you to no end, seeing as how many of you southsiders have a blood feud with black folks, to where you’d want to vomit just thinking about this truth- but yet I’m the racist? As I said before, so say I now and again-I’m just balancing out the shiit your people have been throwing my people’s way, with your one-sided attacks, and half-truths, as well as damn lies, when it comes to what we supposedly stole from your kind, by hampering on what black folks created that was unique to the L.A. gang and street cultural landscape, while highlighting what your peeps have taken from black folks; especially the modern day surs who’ve taken a lot of their swagger, style and dress, including gestures and mannerisms, the dance movements and music-FROM BLACK SOUTH CENTRAL GANG CULTURE FROM THE 90’S, NAMELY THE CRIPS (many surs back in the day use to watch those black west coast, south central inspired, rap videos, including rap videos by Tupac, and got a lot of their modern day style from them; these black west coast rap videos, emanating from the 90’s, is what modernized sur gang culture, and brought them into the hip-hop age).

You can deny this all you want to, but deep down-YOU KNOW I’M TELLING THE TRUTH.

[MARTINEZ]

"The Real"

I see your still singing the same ol song after all these years. ^^

[TheReal]

And another thing, black folks didn't get the wearing of the red and blue bandanna from mexican gangs, and I doubt very seriously that eses were claiming area codes back in the 60's, seeing as how in those days, there weren't that many area codes, for a particular area. I remember in the 70's, where fools were able to call another spot in Cali, that was 100 miles away, and not even dial 1, or the area code.

Are you sure eses were claiming the area code shiit back in the 60's? I don't know man, that shiiit sounds highly suspect. I don't know- you maybe right. Furthermore, back east and throughout the midwest, going back to the early part of the last century, you always had black gangs, criminal organizations and operations. Have you ever heard of black numbers runners, pimps, and so forth? Also you had individual black crews or gangs. This is what almost every ethnic and racial group will construct, if they live in urban environments.

And yes, the first black gangs in L.A. did indeed originate in the 20's, and the reason why I even mention this, is because folks like you claim that prior to the 1940's, there weren't any black gangs, or criminal organizations in L.A., which is a claim, not even the research proves. Likewise, you can't easily dismiss this truth just because these gangs don't exist anymore. Hell, a lot shiit don't exist anymore, but that does that mean there's no history there, or that just because it's out of sight, it ought to be out of mind?

You see, blood feuding surs like you want to make this shiit a pissing contest. Your side claims that there weren't any black gangs prior to the 40's (or even during the 40's), where in turn black folks mention the existence of black gangs that were in existence, prior to the 40's; then you guys flip the script and gang historical requirements for legitimacy, by then claiming, or saying something akin to: "Well, they may have existed in the 20's, but they're not the oldest, and they are no longer around." I'm like WHAT THE PHUGGG! Hell, there's been great civilizations that no longer exist, that were once superpowers, or significant in their presence when they existed, but am I going to discard them by saying they never existed, or that they're prior existence is irrelevant, simply because they no longer exist? THAT'S ILLOGICAL!

But I somewhat digress...

At first you said they (black gangs) didn't exist prior to the 40's, or you strongly imply that, but then once the scholarship is proven that they did indeed exist-THEN YOU SWITCH UP AND SAY THEIR EXISTENCE DOESN'T MATTER, BECAUSE OF X,Y, AND Z! Man that shiit's ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is, black folks influenced L.A. culture in general, and particularly its gang and street culture. Now is this pronouncement of mine diminishing what eses brought forth-HELL NO! But again, I am balancing out the shiit that your racist brethren throw at black folks every day, or when they have the opportunity, which claims that we have no culture, and that everything we have, in regards to gang and street culture, or L.A. culture in general-WE GOT FROM ESES!

Almost every black person has heard this within the last 12 or 15 years. Some of us have heard this in cyberspace, in places such as Youtube, mexican/latino websites, the classroom, or directly to our faces, and I think it's time for black folks to take a stand on that shiit once and for all, fight back, and reclaim their shiit.

Just like you can proudly boast (whether it is justified or not) that East Los was the home of it all (I feel that's kind of stretching it, but okay, I'll be overly gracious and give you the floor on that one, because I understand the concept of taking pride in your tribe), I as a black person can say that-BLACK GANGS IN L.A. ARE WHAT PUT L.A. GANGS ON THE MAP, AS WELL AS CONTRIBUTED TO THE OVERALL MODERNIZATION OF L.A. GANG CULTURE, WITH CERTAIN CULTURAL NUANCES, FLAVORS AND FUNK, THAT WOULDN'T BE THERE, IF BLACK FOLKS HADN'T DONE IT FIRST, OR PUT IF FORTH.

[TheReal]

These are some links from Youtube that highlight some of the unique brand of black south central gang and street culture, that influenced L.A. and the world. I'm not posting this to deny any chicano influences, because every racial group have been influenced by other ethnic/racial groups who live in close proximity to them, especially if these groups are culturally dominant groups. That shiit is bound to happen. HOWEVER, I am posting these videos up in part, to show that despite appropriation from certain chicano influences, black folks created their own unique cultural flavor, funk and brand; a cultural flavor, funk and brand, that wouldn't have existed in L.A.-IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE PRESENCE OF BLACK FOLKS.

(Also these links highlight how modern day surs have been influenced by the black south central gang culture brand in L.A., as well as black west coast hip hop culture and gestures and mannerisms.)

True enough, I'm not an expert at putting up links, so I don't know how long these links will maintain, so get em/watch them while their hot off the presses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x__s-hy4hZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEWJzkVr13k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkx1wwe2OJY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NNhfDns ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDdOBS6bU9E&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJRzwS170Xo&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDRPt0x ... re=channel

[TheReal]

And another thing let me disabuse folks of the notion that the crips and bloods started because of ese gangs. I use to hear that a lot in the late 90's and early part of this century. Don't hear it too much nowadays, but I remember that during the time periods I just mentioned, which wasn't all that long ago, I use to hear surs, especially the younger ones, tell me to my face, that the crips and the bloods started because they wanted to copy and be like mexicans.

Or many of them would say that the crips and bloods started in the 80's, in order to unite against ese gangs. This is what I use to hear coming from your sureno side. And I'm dead on when I say that surs back in the day use to claim that mexicans created rap (or at the very least, west coast hip-hop/rap). Now grant it, this isn't much said all too much nowadays, but from 99' to 2005, this shiit use to be preached. Hell, even Chino Grande said that chicano rap came from some aztec god or something. You go figure.

But I'm kinda rambling now, but back on the point: CRIPS AND BLOODS WERE NOT FOUNDED BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO EMULATE AND COPY ESE GANGS. This is a supreme insult to the true sociological and historical reasons, these gangs really formed. Hell, back in the day, in many parts of South Central L.A., or parts of the city of L.A. where it was predominately black, the mex population, back in the late 60's and early 70's, was only 5, sometimes 10 percent. Compton in the mid 80's was 80% black.

There were neighborhoods in the late 60's and early 70's, where there no eses at all, with the exception of one or two families, I guess. I'm saying all of this to say that, mexican gangs weren't on black folks radars when they formed, nor are they an arrogation of mexican gangs.

Mexican gangs were founded for their reasons, and so were black gangs, so surs ought to stop inserting themselves into black gang origins, and stop trying to speculate why black gangs did, what they did: COME INTO EXISTENCE. That shit's just arrogant.
Hell man, not everything in L.A., revolves around surs.
Go study the history of black gangs in L.A., or even the history of the crips and bloods, and stop lying to folks, with the spurious claims that these gangs (crips and bloods) are just ese/cholo wannabes, and that's why they were formed. Again, they have their own narrative, and not every song is about you.

[TheReal]

Speaking of the bandanna thing, as it relates to the bloods. The only reason why the bloods chose the red bandanna, was due to them reacting to the crips and their choosing of the blue bandanna. Not only that, black folks back in the day use to refer to themselves as 'blood', therefore those who referred to themselves as 'bloods," chose the red colored bandanna.

These black cats in southern cali, weren't interested in what mexicans in northern cali were sporting, in regards to red bandannas-THAT'S IF THEY (nortes) WERE SPORTING RED BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY. I don't know...you tell me about some picture of an eagle and a red banner-are you referring to a red bandanna (I always thought the norte symbol was a sombrero and some type of knife).

Hell, my old great uncles, who were migrant field workers throughout the San Joaguin Valley (yes, there were black field workers in Cali, from the 30's, on up until the mid 60's, with residues of them going into the mid 80's), would wear either red, or blue bandannas-THE PREDOMINANT COLORS OF BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY (they would also wear dickies and pendleton shirts; this shit was their work and maybe leisure clothes).

And as I said before, black folks back in the day, even amongst gangs like the Slaussons, the Gladiators, and the Businessman (black gangs from the 50's), you will find old photos of them, with processes in their hair, sporting red, or blue bandannas, with the knot tied up around the center of their forehead (black folks know what I'm referring to). This is how black folks traditionally, until very recently, would wear their bandannas: WRAPPED AROUND THEIR HEADS, WITH A KNOT TIED UP ON THE CENTER OF THEIR FOREHEAD. This is similiar to how Tupac wore his bandanna, which is a way mexicans hardly ever, if they ever did, wore their bandannas.

Hell, this shit went way beyond the 50's, for black folks, especially men, were wearing bandannas this way, as long as their have been big hair types of processes. You know the type of processes where the rollers are put in the hair.

So no, I totally reject the fact that black folks got the blue and red bandanna, or the blue and the red concept from eses, seeing as how there are conflicting time periods concerning when eses really began to sport the blue and the red rags, along with the fact that the bandanna, and the headkerchief, has always been apart of black culture, going all the way back to black field workers.

[TheReal]

In one of the above posts, I said I never stated that black folks codified the old English letter writing practice. What I should've said was: "I never said black folks were the first to codify the practice of using old English letters."

[mayugastank]

Speaking of the bandanna thing, as it relates to the bloods. The only reason why the bloods chose the red bandanna, was due to them reacting to the crips and their choosing of the blue bandanna. Not only that, black folks back in the day use to refer to themselves as 'blood', therefore those who referred to themselves as 'bloods," chose the red colored bandanna.

These black cats in southern cali, weren't interested in what mexicans in northern cali were sporting, in regards to red bandannas-THAT'S IF THEY (nortes) WERE SPORTING RED BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY. I don't know...you tell me about some picture of an eagle and a red banner-are you referring to a red bandanna (I always thought the norte symbol was a sombrero and some type of knife).

Hell, my old great uncles, who were migrant field workers throughout the San Joaguin Valley (yes, there were black field workers in Cali, from the 30's, on up until the mid 60's, with residues of them going into the mid 80's), would wear either red, or blue bandannas-THE PREDOMINANT COLORS OF BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY (they would also wear dickies and pendleton shirts; this shit was their work and maybe leisure clothes).

And as I said before, black folks back in the day, even amongst gangs like the Slaussons, the Gladiators, and the Businessman (black gangs from the 50's), you will find old photos of them, with processes in their hair, sporting red, or blue bandannas, with the knot tied up around the center of their forehead (black folks know what I'm referring to). This is how black folks traditionally, until very recently, would wear their bandannas: WRAPPED AROUND THEIR HEADS, WITH A KNOT TIED UP ON THE CENTER OF THEIR FOREHEAD. This is similiar to how Tupac wore his bandanna, which is a way mexicans hardly ever, if they ever did, wore their bandannas.

Hell, this shit went way beyond the 50's, for black folks, especially men, were wearing bandannas this way, as long as their have been big hair types of processes. You know the type of processes where the rollers are put in the hair.

So no, I totally reject the fact that black folks got the blue and red bandanna, or the blue and the red concept from eses, seeing as how there are conflicting time periods concerning when eses really began to sport the blue and the red rags, along with the fact that the bandanna, and the headkerchief, has always been apart of black culture, going all the way back to black field workers.

so we can keep calling eachother racist ---but I am not going to relinquish anything I have said at all---The tattoing culture in the United States is a totally mexican invention---shit even now to this day blacks dont get tatted as much as we do ---although their are blacks I know that distintly write and draw like mexicans from their own talents combining with LA gangster art, it doesnt take away from the fact that, that tattoing is appropriated from Chicanos. The game --TUPAC , all these fools fom the WEST SIDE , have the full body tatts and stomache shot outs that are distinctly mexican-american. You have said you were in jail before are you going to say that THE GAMEs style of writing and tattoes across the neck arent distinctly 110% mexican american??? COME ON! I dont even know how you can argue the bandana thing when NORTE is older then Crips and Bloods and SUR is double there age?If you look at the first photgraph of Nuestra FAmilia formation they are around a BIRD flag appropriated by the farm workers union, that bird is RED BLOOD RED, the bandanas around their hand s are RED ----? and that picture is about 10 years older than any crip or blood gang! its like a toddler saying that he invented something to an adult!! who is older should be the only argument for that one!! We are arguing about black gangs being around in the 1920s in Los Angeles, IF big,.IF, they were then it would be another big coincedence on blacks and hispanics coming out with gangs at the same time. The thing is the history of all these things transpiring are murky and muddled, but the history of White Fence and MARAVILLA and other EAST LA gangs are not as murky as black gangs history since these GANGS ARE HERE NOW < TODAY > AS WE SPEAK on the same streets they started! The AVENUES originally the ALPINE STREET gang are still here , that gangs history is close to 100 years old !GLADIATORS< BUSINESS MEN blah blah blah, once again we are seeing two groups of people coming out with the same things at the same time!!!!impossible in my book ! GANG CULTURE IN LA is ours ---take it the way you want it ! You have JAZZ-BREAKDANCING , BEATBOXING , RAPPING , SOUL FOOD < I aint trying to claim those ! cuz Id look like an idiot ---same way you look claiming LA gang history as being in question!!I once had an argument with a a black guy about listening to OLDIES , he wanted to listen to RAP and he couldnt understand why HE had to listen to """mexican music""""(((although all the singers and partakers of the biggest hits were black ))), in his book , because mexicans were the biggest listeners of MOTOWN , it was a MEXICAN M<USIC!! Just because you got blacks saying they came first doesnt make it so ----and the only way to prove otherwise is evidence -----I have that evidence in the GANGS of EAST LA -----------who are older and have an UNBROKEN CHAIN OF EVIDENCE ---farther and longer then ANY GANG OF ANY RACE in the ENTIRE USA ----------THE ENTIRE USA. Your arguments carry no merit because --you have no unbroken chain of evidence. Is a pretty reasonable argument dont you think?? hwo would I look claiming mexicans started jazz when blacks can show the roots of that music to africa??You discount my arguments by crying RACISM _THIEVERY and getting emotional , using hearsay and not facts, Your own personal observations are only going back to the 70s , yet despite this you say what I am saying isnt so ! The 1970s were 50 years after the gang WHTE FENCE .........who is still here now. That is evidence enough to discount just about anything you can counter----black gangs besides the crips and bloods , are not in question --that they were black gangs before them is not in question. But the argument is WHEN did they show up ? the answers you provide are murky ----my evidence is straightforward , factual and can be found at present dayin the streets of EAST LA. The gangs I am claiming that are the original gangs of LA are here now at present--on the same street!!!!the gangs you mention have faded in time,were lost in history, and cant be definetively traced backwards in time to a certain place or time ! So in reality their roots can not be verified!!!!!!! the roots of white fence and avenues can ,,,,and those roots go back to at least the same point you claim black gangs started in LA. You are saying that black gangs were around in the 20s and I am saying that WHITE FENCE can definetly be traced back to 1920. You ay that although those black gangs dont exist now theydefinetly were around at the time WHITE FENCE was. I am saying that the gang I m using to make my point with:is around now,and can be traced to the earliet documentation of black gangs in LA. That this gang is the oldest gang in AMERICA --presently still active. That black gangs can be traced to the time of this gang BUT NOT FURTHER , that those black gangs are gone and gobbled up by history , and that this gang is here today. That the history , and unbroken chain of evidence of this gang is longer and older then any gang , anywere in AMERICA. Not just the WEST COAST. And that for blacks gangs to have come first is an impossibility not supported by the evidence. That chicano culture influenced a greatdeal of black culture throughout the entire USA is envitable. That likewise black culture has influenced the ENTIRE WORLD is irrefutable. But to continously throw myths and facts together to try and confuse the listener isnt going to work here. As I stated earlier I win the argument by DEFAULT -on a technicality, my evidence is presently available on the streets of EAST LOS and yours,well , we are still working on that !!!!!!!!

[mayugastank]

Speaking of the bandanna thing, as it relates to the bloods. The only reason why the bloods chose the red bandanna, was due to them reacting to the crips and their choosing of the blue bandanna. Not only that, black folks back in the day use to refer to themselves as 'blood', therefore those who referred to themselves as 'bloods," chose the red colored bandanna.

These black cats in southern cali, weren't interested in what mexicans in northern cali were sporting, in regards to red bandannas-THAT'S IF THEY (nortes) WERE SPORTING RED BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY. I don't know...you tell me about some picture of an eagle and a red banner-are you referring to a red bandanna (I always thought the norte symbol was a sombrero and some type of knife).

Hell, my old great uncles, who were migrant field workers throughout the San Joaguin Valley (yes, there were black field workers in Cali, from the 30's, on up until the mid 60's, with residues of them going into the mid 80's), would wear either red, or blue bandannas-THE PREDOMINANT COLORS OF BANDANNAS BACK IN THE DAY (they would also wear dickies and pendleton shirts; this shit was their work and maybe leisure clothes).

And as I said before, black folks back in the day, even amongst gangs like the Slaussons, the Gladiators, and the Businessman (black gangs from the 50's), you will find old photos of them, with processes in their hair, sporting red, or blue bandannas, with the knot tied up around the center of their forehead (black folks know what I'm referring to). This is how black folks traditionally, until very recently, would wear their bandannas: WRAPPED AROUND THEIR HEADS, WITH A KNOT TIED UP ON THE CENTER OF THEIR FOREHEAD. This is similiar to how Tupac wore his bandanna, which is a way mexicans hardly ever, if they ever did, wore their bandannas.

Hell, this shit went way beyond the 50's, for black folks, especially men, were wearing bandannas this way, as long as their have been big hair types of processes. You know the type of processes where the rollers are put in the hair.

So no, I totally reject the fact that black folks got the blue and red bandanna, or the blue and the red concept from eses, seeing as how there are conflicting time periods concerning when eses really began to sport the blue and the red rags, along with the fact that the bandanna, and the headkerchief, has always been apart of black culture, going all the way back to black field workers.

so we can keep calling eachother racist ---but I am not going to relinquish anything I have said at all---The tattoing culture in the United States is a totally mexican invention---shit even now to this day blacks dont get tatted as much as we do ---although their are blacks I know that distintly write and draw like mexicans from their own talents combining with LA gangster art, it doesnt take away from the fact that, that tattoing is appropriated from Chicanos. The game --TUPAC , all these fools fom the WEST SIDE , have the full body tatts and stomache shot outs that are distinctly mexican-american. You have said you were in jail before are you going to say that THE GAMEs style of writing and tattoes across the neck arent distinctly 110% mexican american??? COME ON! I dont even know how you can argue the bandana thing when NORTE is older then Crips and Bloods and SUR is double there age?If you look at the first photgraph of Nuestra FAmilia formation they are around a BIRD flag appropriated by the farm workers union, that bird is RED BLOOD RED, the bandanas around their hand s are RED ----? and that picture is about 10 years older than any crip or blood gang! its like a toddler saying that he invented something to an adult!! who is older should be the only argument for that one!! We are arguing about black gangs being around in the 1920s in Los Angeles, IF big,.IF, they were then it would be another big coincedence on blacks and hispanics coming out with gangs at the same time. The thing is the history of all these things transpiring are murky and muddled, but the history of White Fence and MARAVILLA and other EAST LA gangs are not as murky as black gangs history since these GANGS ARE HERE NOW < TODAY > AS WE SPEAK on the same streets they started! The AVENUES originally the ALPINE STREET gang are still here , that gangs history is close to 100 years old !GLADIATORS< BUSINESS MEN blah blah blah, once again we are seeing two groups of people coming out with the same things at the same time!!!!impossible in my book ! GANG CULTURE IN LA is ours ---take it the way you want it ! You have JAZZ-BREAKDANCING , BEATBOXING , RAPPING , SOUL FOOD < I aint trying to claim those ! cuz Id look like an idiot ---same way you look claiming LA gang history as being in question!!I once had an argument with a a black guy about listening to OLDIES , he wanted to listen to RAP and he couldnt understand why HE had to listen to """mexican music""""(((although all the singers and partakers of the biggest hits were black ))), in his book , because mexicans were the biggest listeners of MOTOWN , it was a MEXICAN M<USIC!! Just because you got blacks saying they came first doesnt make it so ----and the only way to prove otherwise is evidence -----I have that evidence in the GANGS of EAST LA -----------who are older and have an UNBROKEN CHAIN OF EVIDENCE ---farther and longer then ANY GANG OF ANY RACE in the ENTIRE USA ----------THE ENTIRE USA. Your arguments carry no merit because --you have no unbroken chain of evidence. Is a pretty reasonable argument dont you think?? hwo would I look claiming mexicans started jazz when blacks can show the roots of that music to africa??You discount my arguments by crying RACISM _THIEVERY and getting emotional , using hearsay and not facts, Your own personal observations are only going back to the 70s , yet despite this you say what I am saying isnt so ! The 1970s were 50 years after the gang WHTE FENCE .........who is still here now. That is evidence enough to discount just about anything you can counter----black gangs besides the crips and bloods , are not in question --that they were black gangs before them is not in question. But the argument is WHEN did they show up ? the answers you provide are murky ----my evidence is straightforward , factual and can be found at present dayin the streets of EAST LA. The gangs I am claiming that are the original gangs of LA are here now at present--on the same street!!!!the gangs you mention have faded in time,were lost in history, and cant be definetively traced backwards in time to a certain place or time ! So in reality their roots can not be verified!!!!!!! the roots of white fence and avenues can ,,,,and those roots go back to at least the same point you claim black gangs started in LA. You are saying that black gangs were around in the 20s and I am saying that WHITE FENCE can definetly be traced back to 1920. You ay that although those black gangs dont exist now theydefinetly were around at the time WHITE FENCE was. I am saying that the gang I m using to make my point with:is around now,and can be traced to the earliet documentation of black gangs in LA. That this gang is the oldest gang in AMERICA --presently still active. That black gangs can be traced to the time of this gang BUT NOT FURTHER , that those black gangs are gone and gobbled up by history , and that this gang is here today. That the history , and unbroken chain of evidence of this gang is longer and older then any gang , anywere in AMERICA. Not just the WEST COAST. And that for blacks gangs to have come first is an impossibility not supported by the evidence. That chicano culture influenced a greatdeal of black culture throughout the entire USA is envitable. That likewise black culture has influenced the ENTIRE WORLD is irrefutable. But to continously throw myths and facts together to try and confuse the listener isnt going to work here. As I stated earlier I win the argument by DEFAULT -on a technicality, my evidence is presently available on the streets of EAST LOS and yours,well , we are still working on that !!!!!!!!

[mayugastank]

Mayuga, you’re a damn fool racist, and that’s keeping it REAL! The truth of the matter is, FOOL, I did acknowledge the shitt that black folks out west have been influenced by, when it comes to ese/chicano gang culture. What it is, is that you’re such a racist bastard, to where you don’t even want to acknowledge that your kind has been influenced by black culture-IN THE LEAST BIT (not only that, surs mainly want black folks in L.A. to admit to having taken everything, as it relates to street and gang culture, from them; truth be told-that’s what they’re really aiming for). Your basic problem lies in the fact that you want the world to believe that every single cultural nuance, as it relates to street and gang culture out your way-CAME FROM MEXICANS, AND MEXICANS SOLELY, AND THAT BLACKS HAD NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL, BUT THEFT FROM THE MEXICANS, AND POPULARIZING MEXICAN SHIIT! You don’t want to admit that black folks, despite appropriating certain aspects of chicano culture, added their own distinct flavor and funk, to where their shitt became unique and solely theirs. In other words, there are certain things that black folks created, despite appropriating shitt from your people, that your folks had nothing to do with; but you see, you and your brothers and sisters find it damn hard to even want to acknowledge that.

Hell, I even said over and over again, that despite the shiitt that Mexicans appropriated from black folks, Mexicans created their own unique brand, by adding their cultural accoutrements onto it. Again, I’ve always acknowledged this, but what it is, is that many of your people are always claiming, whether it be in cyberspace, or in real life, that black folks have no culture at all, whatsoever, and THAT THEY NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING TO L.A. STREET, AND GANG CULTURE, which again-IS BUUUUUUUULLLLLLSSSHHIIIIIIT, AND DAMN LIES!

I’m not trying to take shiit from your people, but I damn sure know that many of your sureno brethren, who are always trying to force your Mexican pride down our throats, are always implying that we’re inferior, sub-human, and don’t have any culture. Fools like you are constantly reminding us of shiit we got from your peeps-some of it’s true, some of its BS-but damn-WHEN ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT YOU GOT FROM US, INSTEAD OF ALWAYS HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WE SUPPOSEDLY STOLE FROM YOUR KIND! Hell, if you left it to many of your sureno kind, you would think that black folks stole WEST COAST GANGSTA RAP, OR OLDIES MUSIC, FROM YOUR PEOPLE-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT!

Those surs who think like you are trying to rob black folks of their own culture and self-esteem, and all I’m doing is balancing out the bullshiit, by acknowledging ese shit, but at the same time, RECOGNIZING THE UNIQUE CULTURE, STYLE, AND ETHOS OF BLACK GANG, AND STREET CULTURE IN L.A., THAT WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED, IF LEFT TO ESES ALONE! But hell, every time I try and balance the scales, FOOLS LIKE YOU PLAY THE RACE CARD, OR GET YOUR PANTIES ALL CAUGHT UP IN A BUNCH, because even though deep down, folks who think like you don’t consider yourself to be racist, that’s what you essentially are-BECAUSE ESES LIKE YOU HATE TO GIVE FOLKS YOU THINK YOU’RE BETTER THAN, CREDIT FOR SHIIIT!

Surenos such as yourself, or southsiders such as yourself, can be some petty and jealous kind of folks. Surs like you are lying on black folks across the internet, and any venue you guys can afford, or to any ahistorical sucker who doesn’t know any better.
And stop lying fool- I never said black folks codified, or created the old English alphabet characters. Now having said that, Mexicans didn’t create that type of writing, but more than likely, they codified it as a part of their sur gang culture. I can’t speak on that for sure. And as far as the three dots, hell yeah I’m going to question that shiit from what I’ve seen growing up, just like I will question the myth that black folks got the sporting of baldheads from eses-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIT! Why? Because I remember, seeing the three dot configuration, in the very late 70’s, emanating from black gangs. The only time I saw anything concerning three dots at all, coming from eses, was in the late 80’s. Furthermore, I could’ve sworn I saw an episode of “Gangland,” where they were discussing an old black gang from Chicago, that originated in the late 60’s, which had nothing to do with the later west coast hip-hop influences, utilizing the three dot thing. But maybe my memory is somewhat muddled at this point-you go figure.

And the same thing with the teardrops-the first bangers I saw with the tear drop thing-WAS CRIPS IN THE EARLY 80’S. Now did eses come up with this prior to this time, MAYBE, but I’ve seen aloooooooooot of surs during the 80’s, and besides many of them not sporting baldheads; being togged down in blue, dressing like crips; sur walking (which is what surs got from black gangs), stackin’, and a host of other shiit-I AIN’T NEVER SEEN A ONE SPORTING TEAR DROP TATTOOS. Mind you, this isn’t to say that eses didn’t come up with this, I’m just saying that throughout the 70’s, and much of the 80’s, from my recollections, eses didn’t sport the 3 teardrops. Now eses did codify the smile now, and cry later image, as far as tats, and gang icons go, but the teardrop, and the three dotted pyramid configuration-I honestly don’t know…

Furthermore, I never denied that ese gangs didn’t tat up as part of their codified gang culture, but what I am saying is, that historically, it was white folks, mainly white sailors and merchant marine folks from this country, travelling throughout the South Pacific, who brought tat wearing to this country, and not eses, or more specifically-EAST L.A.
Again, with the fear of sounding redundant and like a broken record, I do acknowledge that black folks appropriated shiit from the eses, only to add their own distinct cultural flavor and funk, which created something that was new and unique, but likewise, I have acknowledged that eses acquired shiit from black folks, and in the process, added their own unique cultural stamp and brand.

But I guess the crime in what I’m saying, lies in the fact that I’m forthrightly stating that eses got anything from black folks. I realize that with many of you, this admission irks you to no end, seeing as how many of you southsiders have a blood feud with black folks, to where you’d want to vomit just thinking about this truth- but yet I’m the racist? As I said before, so say I now and again-I’m just balancing out the shiit your people have been throwing my people’s way, with your one-sided attacks, and half-truths, as well as damn lies, when it comes to what we supposedly stole from your kind, by hampering on what black folks created that was unique to the L.A. gang and street cultural landscape, while highlighting what your peeps have taken from black folks; especially the modern day surs who’ve taken a lot of their swagger, style and dress, including gestures and mannerisms, the dance movements and music-FROM BLACK SOUTH CENTRAL GANG CULTURE FROM THE 90’S, NAMELY THE CRIPS (many surs back in the day use to watch those black west coast, south central inspired, rap videos, including rap videos by Tupac, and got a lot of their modern day style from them; these black west coast rap videos, emanating from the 90’s, is what modernized sur gang culture, and brought them into the hip-hop age).

You can deny this all you want to, but deep down-YOU KNOW I’M TELLING THE TRUTH.

Mayuga, you’re a damn fool racist, and that’s keeping it REAL! The truth of the matter is, FOOL, I did acknowledge the shitt that black folks out west have been influenced by, when it comes to ese/chicano gang culture. What it is, is that you’re such a racist bastard, to where you don’t even want to acknowledge that your kind has been influenced by black culture-IN THE LEAST BIT (not only that, surs mainly want black folks in L.A. to admit to having taken everything, as it relates to street and gang culture, from them; truth be told-that’s what they’re really aiming for). Your basic problem lies in the fact that you want the world to believe that every single cultural nuance, as it relates to street and gang culture out your way-CAME FROM MEXICANS, AND MEXICANS SOLELY, AND THAT BLACKS HAD NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL, BUT THEFT FROM THE MEXICANS, AND POPULARIZING MEXICAN SHIIT! You don’t want to admit that black folks, despite appropriating certain aspects of chicano culture, added their own distinct flavor and funk, to where their shitt became unique and solely theirs. In other words, there are certain things that black folks created, despite appropriating shitt from your people, that your folks had nothing to do with; but you see, you and your brothers and sisters find it damn hard to even want to acknowledge that.












okay your argument seems to be that I am not acknowledging blacks contributions to LA street culture but that is ludicrous, its not even the argument we are having !!!the title of the thread was ""do blacks dispute mexicans originated LA gang culture!!!!""" the simply answer to that is to go back and find the oldest gang . That oldest gang is mexican. End of argument!You are going off on what some other NO MIND mexican has said about starting rap ----lol! just the sopund of it is funny ! mexicans starting rap ~Ive never said such , you think by me arguing tht street gang culture in LA is originally mexican I am thieving black culture or heritage. I would be a fool to deny that blacks and mexicans have borrowed from eachother ---I aint even saying so --of course any fool knows that the singers of smile now cry later were black right?? and that oldies and motown have had a huge influence on chicano culture??I dont even care about that argument --its way off topic and f you want to start a thread on that we can discuss --how both our cultures have appropriated from eachother. The argument was essentially who is the oldest gang in California. Being that whoever had the oldest gang originated LA gang culture. I have gne as far as to say thatthe oldest gang ---still in existance today is MEXICAN_AMERICAN and is located in East LA. That that gang is older then any gang of any race on the continent of NORTH AMERICA.

[pistolslanga]

for an active sureno gangster maya seems to spend a lot of times on streetgangs trying to be a history professor ..... and stuff...

[perongregory]

Damn u messin up ur argument by giving out false info, and not reading up on history mayuga. Tatoo culture in America is not a Chicano invention, freaks, sailors and other outcast oddball white people were immersed in the tatto culture, (which by the way always had tats of ladies) before olde english Mexican gang tatooing -so ya fucked up on that one.

If ur going to say b's and c's got their bandanas from mexicans simply becuz modern mexican gangs are older then b's and c's we can argue that mexicans got their tradition of bandanas from black slaves then who've been wearing shit like that since the 18th century. Gangs have had bandanas, from outlaw whites, the old ass gangs in Chicago, etc. That's a stupid argument.

Third u say its murky on black gangs before the crips and bloods...no it isn't it's documented. Ask Alonso, find some black OG's, read up on it.

Mexican gangs aren't responsible for LA gang culture that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Guess we just have to erase the history and presence of white, asian, black, islander and so on gangs in LA. By your logic we should be givin it up to the Irish cuz they set a lot of precedents that still apply to this day with gangs.

[jdm894g]

Mexican gangs aren't responsible for LA gang culture that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Guess we just have to erase the history and presence of white, asian, black, islander and so on gangs in LA. By your logic we should be givin it up to the Irish because they set a lot of precedents that still apply to this day with gangs.

speak on it....all gangs in so cal were formed to protect themselves from white folks. Then they just branched out and when, drugs, money and women got involved it changed the game to what we have now-turf wars-intra-racial and inter-racial.

[mayugastank]

for an active sureno gangster maya seems to spend a lot of times on streetgangs trying to be a history professor ..... and stuff...

I AM A GANG BANGER?? and active at that ? were did you get that from? I am definetly not involved in gangs HOWEVER , MY father and grandfather were . How many blacks can say as much in Los Angeles? MY Father was from a gang called the harpys he is 62 years old my grandfather who passed away in 93 was from EL JARDIN , his storys on gang life were about his generation being the third geneation of gangsters from EL JARDIN---a gang that exists TODAY.I am not active or have I ever been .

[jdm894g]

I AM A GANG BANGER?? and active at that ? were did you get that from? I am definetly not involved in gangs HOWEVER , MY father and grandfather were . How many blacks can say as much in Los Angeles? MY Father was from a gang called the harpys he is 62 years old my grandfather who passed away in 93 was from EL JARDIN , his storys on gang life were about his generation being the third geneation of gangsters from EL JARDIN---a gang that exists TODAY.I am not active or have I ever been .

Is that something to be proud of-your grandfather and dad were gangsters? Atleast you could have said fortune 500 CEOs and successful citizens. Gang bangers? So productive for our societies....

[TheReal]

Hell yeah I’m going to continue calling you a racist, because wasn’t it you who referred to black folks on another post on this thread as “nigs”? But that’s beside the point. Arguing whether or not you’re a racist is simply a moot point, for it is what it is. With that said, Nortes wearing red bandannas in a picture with a red eagle, don’t mean that the trajectory for the Bloods picking up the red bandanna, has anything to do with Nortes. As I said earlier, which is a fact you intentionally want to ignore, the word “blood” was used by black folks heavily back in the day, in order to refer to one another. In other words, almost any black person was a blood. This is why when they chose a bandanna to utilize as their gang banner, THEY CHOSE THE COLOR OF BLOOD: RED. They also chose this color for it was the opposite of what the crips were using, which was the blue bandanna.

These bloods didn’t know anything, or did research on Nortes ! These negroes were from Southern Cali, whereas nortes were from further up north. And hell, as I said before, black folks have always come from a bandanna wearing, or headkerchief wearing tradition. Most of the black folks during the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s, that came into Southern Cali, were primarily from the states of Louisiana, and Texas, with a small percentage coming from Oklahoma, Arkansas, and some from Mississippi. These were southern negroes who came from a field working tradition in the south, or hard labor working tradition.

Many of those black old heads who came during this time period, who were the fathers and grandfathers of those that founded the crips and bloods in the 60’s and 70’s, wore dickie work clothing. They wore khakis, croaker sack shoes, and if they landed in the San Joaquin valley, as some did beginning in the 30’s-THEY WORE EITHER RED OR BLUE BANDANNAS, FOR THOSE WERE THE ONLY COLORS THAT WERE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. My grandfather, and his family, during the late 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s, on up until the mid 60’s, use to travel all throughout the San Joaquin Valley, along with other black and Mexican migrant workers, picking fruit, cotton, and the like. I have pictures of my uncles, working in the fields, dressed in khakis, and wearing dark colored bandannas (can’t really distinguish the color, seeing as how the photos are in black and white). One of my uncles, until the day he died, would only dress in Dickies, and would occasionally carry a bandanna, not as a headkerchief, but he utilized it as a handkerchief.

When I went to live in Louisiana briefly, in the late 80’s, I noticed a lot of the old timers who were in their 60’s and beyond, would dress up in khakis, with suspenders. Hell, my father, who had me veeeeery late in his life (He was born in 1910, in Louisiana), would, until the day he died in the early 80’s, wear high-waisted pants, with suspenders, along with a varying array of Fedoras. When I looked at old photos of him as a youngster, during the 20’s and 30’s, he, along with his cousins and friends, would be sporting wide shouldered suits, with deeply creased pants, that went high up on the waist, with wide brims. And mind you, these photos were taken in the early 30’s (folks weren’t wearing highwaisted pants in the 20’s; I don’t think). And guess where they were living at the time? LOUISIANA!

I even have a picture of my grandfather, the one who settled in Cali, working as a field worker throughout the San Joaquin Valley, in 1916 (he was born in 1898; he had 10 children, of which he had my mother at the age of 50, or possibly in his late 40’s), wearing a Pendleton like shirt, tucked into his pants, some khaki, or cholo looking pants, some timberland style shoes, and suspenders, posing with his female cousins in the field, who were dressed like they were in the “Color Purple.” Now, I baaaaaaaaaaarely remember my grandpa, even though he died in his late 80’s, but even he himself, would utilize a red bandanna, or a blue bandanna, sometimes as a headkerchief, but mostly as a tool to wipe the sweat off of his brow. As a matter of fact, now that I think about, old school negroes from back in that day, would always carry around a handkerchief, or a bandanna that they utilized as handkerchiefs.

There was a gang in the 50’s, a black gang, that was called the Gladiators (I think this was the name). Well anyway, a friend of mine is doing research right now as we speak, on black gangs from the 50’s, and one of the photos he showed me was a member of the Gladiators, back in the mid 50’s, wearing a dark colored bandanna (I don’t know the exact color, seeing as how the photo was black and white), with the knot tied up at the center of his forehead, with head exposed on top. Why? BECAUSE HE WAS PROTECTING HIS PROCESS! And I realize that as a Mexican, and a myopic thinking sur, you may not understand, nor appreciate what I’m explaining to you, or revealing to you, in regards to what a process is, and the maintenance of it, but riddle me this Sherlock- HOW DO YOU THINK THESE NEGROES MAINTAINED THEIR PROCESSES, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY SLEPT AT NIGHT? I’ll tell you-THEY WORE BANDANNAS, OR HEADKERCHIEFS AROUND THEIR HEADS. And remember, the bandannas back then were either blue, or RED.

(With that said, the type of processes back in the day that would require the wearing of bandannas, and other headkerchiefs, were those big type of James Brown processes, or those Little Richard like processes; but those processes that weren’t as big, to where no rollers were required on the head, then doo-rags, or wave caps were utilized.)
So why am I even talking about all of this? I’m talking about the clothing and the bandannas-especially the bandannas-to dispel the notion that black folks only picked up the bandanna, or became familiar with the bandanna, only after the surs and nortes supposedly did their thing. Again, that’s some vain like thinking, to think that black folks had to look at Mexicans first, mainly black folks throughout L.A., in order to create any old damn thing, as it relates to street culture. Black folks didn’t need Mexican folks permission to sport head rags, headkerchiefs, and bandannas, back in the day, and no black gang banger, unless they’re caught up and brainwashed by contemporary sur revisionist gang history-would, and have ever admitted to this; at least no credible one.

No black OG out there in the public square, who really know their shiit, from back in the day, ever mentioned eses, when it came to them initially rocking the red and blue bandannas, because at that point in time in black L.A. history-MEXICANS WEREN’T EVEN ON BLACK FOLKS RADAR! Secondly, MEXICAN GANGS, UNLESS BLACK FOLKS LIVED IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THEM, WEREN’T EVEN ON BLACK GANGS RADAR! This is especially true for those black folks living in South Central L.A., where at the time, the black population could’ve ran from 70-90% black, where there were hardly any Mexicans around, let alone ese barrios.

That cholo influence, or East L.A. influence you speak of, if anything, began to influence black bangers during the late 70’s, as the Mexican population in South Central, and the rest of L.A., began to steadily grow in numbers (now of course the Mexican explosion didn’t really occur until the mid 80’s, under Reagan; but that’s another topic).

I remember this period distinctly, because back then, fashion began to change somewhat, and the bell bottoms and tight fitting clothing that came out in the mid 60’s, and lasted until the mid to late 70’s, with residues in the 80’s, began to fade out of fashion. Blacks at that time who would see either their fathers, but especially grandfathers, or other black old timers, wearing khakis, high waisted pants with suspenders, or Pendleton shirts, considered the clothes they were wearing to be old folk’s clothes, because they weren’t hip and young. But I noticed in the late 70’s and early eighties, that many (not all) of those same young black folks that would mock the old folks clothes of their fathers, but especially grandfathers, would turn around and go to various swap meets, and buy these same types of clothing for cheap and reasonable prices. I remember my mother use to take me to these swap meets and buy me khakis, gabardines, and a host of other type of clothing that some would associate with eses, more or less, because that was all she could afford during this time. And it wasn’t just that way with my mother, but with other black parents, and poor black folks living in the hood, who were buying these cheap clothes, either at swap meets, or thrift stores.

Hell, I’ll admit that back in the day, I even use to get some of my gear from the Salvation Army, or Goodwill.

That’s beside the point, but here’s what I’m zoning in on:

I will admit that there are some influences from the eses/cholos/surs back during this time frame, beginning in the late 70’s and 80’s, along with the practical aspects of black folks picking up such gear, as it relates to finances. And the tat thing may have been influenced by the eses during this time (even though white supremacist gangs were wearing tats, and as I said before, it was WHITE FOLKS WHO INTRODUCED TATS TO THIS COUNTRY, especially in the prison system). BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT EVERYTHING BLACK SOUTH CENTRAL L.A. GANG CULTURE PRACTICED, OR DID, WAS BASED ON, OR ROOTED IN WHAT ESES WERE DOING!

And folks can kill it with that Low-rider noise, because by the 80’s, or even 90’s for that matter, BLACK FOLKS HAD BEEN LOWRIDING SINCE THE EARLY 50’S. So me putting the lowrider equation into this discussion, is similar to someone bellyaching over the fact that black folks took the eating of tacos from Mexicans-SO WHAT? Hell, black folks been eating tacos since back in the day, and yes it did come from the Mexicans. But you see, eses who always mention the lowrider equation, mention it from the perspective that black folks, according to contemporary sur folklore, only picked up the lowriding lifestyle in the late 80’s or early 90’s, and that they don’t have a history with the lowrider-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLSHIT! Everytime a black person who knows the history of the zoot suit, sees a Mexican wearing a zoot suit, they ordinarily don’t say to themselves: “Look at those eses, trying to be black.” Instead, they may say, or think, “Well hey, that’s just an example of black cultural influence.” They’re not going to demand that eses take off their zoot suits, and other accoutrements, and demand that eses stop rapping, using black slang, etc.- the way it appears Mexicans want black folks to do, when it comes to what black folks have appropriated from Mexicans, whether real, or imagined.

To eses like you, a black person lowriding is a slap in your face; and the offender is worthy of death, a beatdown, or someone who should be constantly reminded of the chicano origins of lowriders. Hell, if that shit was to be reciprocated in full, then half of what chicano culture enjoys-WOULD BE STRIPPED AWAY.

But I digress…

But now getting back to tats-WOOOOOOOOOOOW! Shit man, look at the boatload of shiit Mexicans took from black folks and incorporated it into their chicano culture. Tats ain’t shiit to brag about! Again, Mexicans didn’t even invent the practice of tatting. HOWEVER,
I will give credit to eses in the sense that they were the first to codify tats as gang identifiers/signifiers, and I will give eses credit, in that they probably were the first to codify the type of gear that’s associated with cholos, as gang gear-BUT THAT’S HOW FAR IT GOES.

As I said before, if two influential cultures live in close proximity to one another, it’s bound to be some cross pollenization, but that doesn’t mean the other culture is trying to racially and ethnically, be the other group, with few possible exceptions.

I say all of this to say, as I said before, and that is-black gangs throughout the history of L.A., culminating in the crips and the bloods, weren’t arrogating Mexican shiit, when they formed their own gangs. As I said before in the other post, eses weren’t even on their (black gangs) radars, in regards to their founding. They didn’t look at eses and say: “Ooooooh, look at the Mexicans, and their gangs…let us create our own gangs, so that we can copy and be like them.” Oh HEEEEEELLL NO! Black gangs had their own sociological, psychological and historical reasons for why they started their gang shiit, just like eses had their own reasons! NOT EVERYONE’S TRYING TO COPY THE ESES, LET ALONE BLACK GANGS BACK IN THE DAY, AS IT RELATES TO THEIR FOUNDING!

You are too drenched in sur folklore, and are so vain, to where you really think this SONG IS ABOUT YOU! Again, Mexican gangs weren’t even on black folk’s radar, and their founding and lifestyle, had nothing to do with you.

What you need to do is do more research, outside your street sur folklore, and urban legends. And what I mean by research; go check out some docs on the founding of black gangs, like “Bastards To The Party,” “Crips and Bloods: Made in America,” or read some of what Alonzo and others had to say on the founding of black gangs in L.A, and you will see-IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SURS WHATSOEVER! (It also wouldn’t hurt to check out BET’s “American Gangster” series, along with checking out “Gangland”; and you will see that everything isn’t about Surs.) Now I realize that many (not all) surs are in a collective blood feud with the black population, and at times can be overly competitive, arrogant, and possessed with the green-eyed monster of envy, when it comes to black shiit, or giving black folks credit for anything, especially as it relates to black L.A. street culture-BUT THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX, AND GOING OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE, CAN BE HIGHLY BENEFICIAL.

And as far as your rant about the black gang history being insignificant, and “murky,” just because the black gangs that existed back in the day, no longer exist (I once met an old black guy in his late 70’s, in the mid or late 90’s, that claimed the Ludlows; it was like a family/clan type of gang/club; it was interesting), therefore black folks can’t highlight the fact that there were black gangs back in L.A. going back to the 20’s, IS STUPID AS HELL!
When black folks say that black gangs go all the way back to the 1920’s, they’re not saying that the gangs are necessarily continuous, INSTEAD, they’re stating this (black gangs going back to the 20’) in order to show that black folks always had a GANG TRADITION OR AT THE VERY LEAST PRESENCE, throughout the history of L.A. in the 20th century, and that black gangs being in L.A. and existing in L.A.-AREN’T ANOMALIES! Why? ACCORDING TO SUR FOLKLORE AND MYTHS, BLACK GANGS ONLY BEGAN WITH THE CRIPS AND THE BLOODS, OF WHICH, THESE GANGS WERE FOUNDED BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO COPY CHICANO GANGS, AND FOR NO OTHER REASON!

Ese surs like you, full of envy, arrogance, and overly competitiveness, want to foolish poo-poo this reality by saying, “YEAH, WELL WHERE ARE THEY NOW?” Hell, I can say the same thing about Specialty Records, Okeh Records, Moxie Cola, The Turkish Ottoman Empire, the Hittite Empire, etc. Just because something existed back in the day, with some of that evidence concerning their existence being “murky,” doesn’t mean it didn’t exist, or shouldn’t be, or can’t be, acknowledged (hell, the famous blues musician, Robert Johnson, sure enough existed, even though his history is somewhat “murky”). Only someone who’s a fool would purport that view.

And lastly-MEXICAN GANGS WERE NOT THE FIRST GANGS IN THIS COUNTRY (it was the Irish); THEY WERE NOT THE FIRST GANGS TO DO DRIVEBYS (white organized crime during the 20’s and early 30’s, especially during the prohibition, and numbers racket business, beat you guys to the punch, including black gangs in L.A.); AND NOT ALL GANGSTA SHIIT COME FROM ESES (now come on)! And just because there’s a continuous lines of ese gangs, from back in the day, again-DON’T MEAN THEY WERE THE FIRST AND ORIGINAL GANGS IN THIS COUNTRY. That’s illogical, anti-intellectual, and anti-historical.

[TheReal]

Damn u messin up ur argument by giving out false info, and not reading up on history mayuga. Tatoo culture in America is not a Chicano invention, freaks, sailors and other outcast oddball white people were immersed in the tatto culture, (which by the way always had tats of ladies) before olde english Mexican gang tatooing -so ya #%@& up on that one.

If ur going to say b's and c's got their bandanas from mexicans simply becuz modern mexican gangs are older then b's and c's we can argue that mexicans got their tradition of bandanas from black slaves then who've been wearing shit like that since the 18th century. Gangs have had bandanas, from outlaw whites, the old ass gangs in Chicago, etc. That's a stupid argument.

Good points. I wish I thought of that.

[TheReal]

Mexican gangs aren't responsible for LA gang culture that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Guess we just have to erase the history and presence of white, asian, black, islander and so on gangs in LA. By your logic we should be givin it up to the Irish because they set a lot of precedents that still apply to this day with gangs.

speak on it....all gangs in so cal were formed to protect themselves from white folks. Then they just branched out and when, drugs, money and women got involved it changed the game to what we have now-turf wars-intra-racial and inter-racial.

Yep, if you study the history of ethnic gangs in L.A., they were initially formed to protect themselves from white folks-NOT TO COPY ESES!

[TheReal]

Mayuga said:

"Being that whoever had the oldest gang originated LA gang culture."

Oh really? Did eses originate stackin'; black street slang; crip/blood walking; throwing sets up in the air (eses traditionally threw their sets down); codify the wearing of bandannas as masks (mind you, black folks weren't the first to do this, but the first to make it apart of L.A. gang culture); using automatic weapons and creating the driveby; Posing with sets in the air, and eyes towards the sky; west-coast gangsta rap music; pouring out libation for the brothers who aren't here (blacks across the country practiced this); the cholo walk, which was appropriated by pachucos from black men; being togged down in a certain color, in order to identify one's gang affiliation; the word "homeboy;" cripping; zoot suits; dap (black folks were performing this with one another across the country, not just in L.A., and without the influence of black folks from L.A.); etc.?

Don't get me wrong, I can list the things you will put on the table, concerning what eses created, but even doing that-DOES THAT MEAN ESES CREATED EVERYTHING AS IT RELATES TO GANG CULTURE? I'm sorry man, but despite chicanos contributing alot, to say, or imply, that chicanos originated L.A. gang culture, is basically saying they created everything we know as L.A. gang culture-WHICH IS BUUUUUUUUULLLLSHHIIIIT!

Is that what you're saying-that chicanos created everything we have today, in L.A. gang culture?