Jobs & Crime Reduction

These concepts are socially constructed and have been given much weight. What are your thoughts?
Motion
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Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Motion » June 29th, 2010, 10:06 pm

Thought some of you might find this interesting.

I see a very strong association between some of these problems like gang behavior and violent crime and joblessness. For example, if you look at a recent longitudinal study conducted by my colleague at the University of Colorado -- we are doing a book together -- Delbert Elliot. He found, for example, that by the time white males and black males reached the late 20s, the violent crime ratio is 4 to 1 -- 4 black to 1 white. Much higher violent crime rate among black males. However, when he controlled for employment, there was no significant difference in the violent crime rate between white males and black males. No significant difference.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... lson2.html

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Motion » June 29th, 2010, 10:11 pm

I've read other interviews by sociologist William Julius Wilson where he seemed to be saying that one reason reducing unemployment in an area can reduce crime is the affect that employment can have on how people utilize their time. Other than providing legal money for people a job helps to shape how people utilize their time. When you have large numbers of unemployed people in an area especially young people that means that a good amount of their time will be concentrated in hanging out in the streets and all that can come with that. Employment helps to reduce the amount of time that these people spend in the streets. In other words,it's better for a young person to be spending 8 or 12 hours at a job rather than spending those 8 or 12 hours out hanging in the streets. Over time this is how increased employment can reduce crime in high crime areas.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by whiskeyjack » June 30th, 2010, 12:54 am

im not saying no one deserves jobs, if you go looking for one i believe you should find one, anyways.... Arent you guys still reeling from a recession?

Ive noticed in places of the mid-west (indiana/arkansas) that there are alot of make work projects, mostly highway construction stuff... Mostly white areas

Why not hire the local population in places wherever black people are most concentrated and give them make work projects like fixing buildings, roads, security? Even though its not permenant it should boost the local economy somewhat, or at the very least get training out their so people can widen their portfolio....

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by MCD » June 30th, 2010, 11:54 pm

Motion wrote:I've read other interviews by sociologist William Julius Wilson where he seemed to be saying that one reason reducing unemployment in an area can reduce crime is the affect that employment can have on how people utilize their time. Other than providing legal money for people a job helps to shape how people utilize their time. When you have large numbers of unemployed people in an area especially young people that means that a good amount of their time will be concentrated in hanging out in the streets and all that can come with that. Employment helps to reduce the amount of time that these people spend in the streets. In other words,it's better for a young person to be spending 8 or 12 hours at a job rather than spending those 8 or 12 hours out hanging in the streets. Over time this is how increased employment can reduce crime in high crime areas.
exactly, when you're workin 8-12 hour shifts you dont have time to post up on the corners, drink with your homeboys, sell drugs and fuck around. then you got people that blow their welfare or unemployment checks because they didn't have to do a damn thing to get them. N that snake Obama really didn't do shit to start jobs with all that stimulus money

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Motion » July 1st, 2010, 12:44 pm

MCD wrote:
exactly, when you're workin 8-12 hour shifts you dont have time to post up on the corners, drink with your homeboys, sell drugs and fu-- around.
I've also heard some pro athletes say something similar with how doing sports kept them out of trouble while growing up because they were busy participating in sports so they had less time for hanging in the streets.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by MCD » July 2nd, 2010, 2:06 am

Motion wrote:
MCD wrote:
exactly, when you're workin 8-12 hour shifts you dont have time to post up on the corners, drink with your homeboys, sell drugs and fu-- around.
I've also heard some pro athletes say something similar with how doing sports kept them out of trouble while growing up because they were busy participating in sports so they had less time for hanging in the streets.
yup, and i'm not saying bar your kids from all their friends you gotta have a balanced kid, but expose him to shit outside gangs n the streets, make sure he's in school n not slackin and if he's doin sports or has a job as a teenager thats a plus. I think it's good to let your kid live and as long as you teach em right and watch the people they're with they'll make good choices. I've seen all kinds of extremes..I have friends that are 20-21, live at with their parents, got jobs, go to school, and STILL have 12am curfews. Their parents ride their ass on everything and never let them live so they just end up runnin away or rebelling in the end. these are foreign families by the way...super paranoid about everything so having their kid run away even if theyre 21 is their worst nightmare.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 7th, 2010, 7:59 pm

There is a slight positive correlation between wealth and violent crime in North America, and that is often used by the politically correct elements of society to explain away the over representation of Blacks in the prison system, but it isn't the only factor affecting violent crime, nor is it the most significant.

Even when controlling the poverty variable to be equal, the White population still commits a substantially lower amount of crime than the Black population. Race is a better determinant of criminal vulnerability than either income, IQ or education, but that's simplifying the matter as they all contribute to the problem and are directly tied to one another in most cases as well.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by whiskeyjack » July 7th, 2010, 8:26 pm

Even when controlling the poverty variable to be equal, the White population still commits a substantially lower amount of crime than the Black population. Race is a better determinant of criminal vulnerability than either income, IQ or education, but that's simplifying the matter as they all contribute to the problem and are directly tied to one another in most cases as well.
growing up i commited alot of small time crimes i was just never caught

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Silencioso » July 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm

Azure9920 wrote:There is a slight positive correlation between wealth and violent crime in North America, and that is often used by the politically correct elements of society to explain away the over representation of Blacks in the prison system, but it isn't the only factor affecting violent crime, nor is it the most significant.

Even when controlling the poverty variable to be equal, the White population still commits a substantially lower amount of crime than the Black population. Race is a better determinant of criminal vulnerability than either income, IQ or education, but that's simplifying the matter as they all contribute to the problem and are directly tied to one another in most cases as well.
Are you saying there's a genetic component to crime that relates to race?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 8th, 2010, 5:17 pm

Silencioso wrote:Are you saying there's a genetic component to crime that relates to race?
Well there certainly is a dynamic relationship between the two. Wealthy Black people STILL commit a higher number of crimes than poor White people. What explanation does the poverty causing crime theory offer for this?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by whiskeyjack » July 9th, 2010, 5:08 am

Azure im from Sudbury Ontario, and you know if your old enough that minus murders and rapes there is a wealth of crime that doesnt get reported from there..... One small example is, i remember one night my buddies got all drunk and drove around town stealing newspaper machines, in total we must have gotten almost 20 machines and ran over countless mail boxes... The whole city had this copper wire stealing phase from the mine sites, i was part of that lol. the list goes on :lol: :lol: ....

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 9th, 2010, 9:35 am

So what are you saying?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 9th, 2010, 4:47 pm

Azure9920 wrote:There is a slight positive correlation between wealth and violent crime in North America, and that is often used by the politically correct elements of society to explain away the over representation of Blacks in the prison system, but it isn't the only factor affecting violent crime, nor is it the most significant.

Even when controlling the poverty variable to be equal, the White population still commits a substantially lower amount of crime than the Black population. Race is a better determinant of criminal vulnerability than either income, IQ or education, but that's simplifying the matter as they all contribute to the problem and are directly tied to one another in most cases as well.
Im sure you can back this up? With credible sources?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by whiskeyjack » July 10th, 2010, 4:19 am

im saying how can you be 100% sure that white people who are borderline middle class and lower dont commit crime? Cause my friends and i did alot of shit that wasnt reported. Even though stats deal with raw numbers, i dont think they tell the whole story......

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 10th, 2010, 4:23 am

whiskeyjack wrote:im saying how can you be 100% sure that white people who are borderline middle class and lower dont commit crime? Cause my friends and i did alot of shit that wasnt reported. Even though stats deal with raw numbers, i dont think they tell the whole story......
"I only trust statistics that i fabricated myself" - Sir Winston Churchill

Agree with you on this Whiskey, the same thing you said counts for me.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by whiskeyjack » July 10th, 2010, 4:25 am

im trying to become a better human being sentenza, you also put a few nails in my coffin... Mabye you should be an under taker

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 10th, 2010, 8:33 am

whiskeyjack wrote:im trying to become a better human being sentenza, you also put a few nails in my coffin... Mabye you should be an under taker
LOL, what did i do?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by punamusta » July 11th, 2010, 7:25 am

Motion wrote:Thought some of you might find this interesting.

I see a very strong association between some of these problems like gang behavior and violent crime and joblessness. For example, if you look at a recent longitudinal study conducted by my colleague at the University of Colorado -- we are doing a book together -- Delbert Elliot. He found, for example, that by the time white males and black males reached the late 20s, the violent crime ratio is 4 to 1 -- 4 black to 1 white. Much higher violent crime rate among black males. However, when he controlled for employment, there was no significant difference in the violent crime rate between white males and black males. No significant difference.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... lson2.html
That is true and shouldn't be news to anyone. It's a fact that economical inequality and wide differences in incomes of people generate social problems like crime. In countries where the gap between rich and poor people is the biggest, also crime tends to be a huge problem.

Poor people commit more crimes than rich people, because they have to. It is a class issue, not a race issue. Without a doubt also poor white people commit more crimes than rich white people.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Motion » July 13th, 2010, 10:29 am

Basically,I don't see this reversing for Blacks until Blacks do more to affect our economic problems like poverty and joblessness. Blacks will have to create more jobs for ourselves and not rely on gov't welfare for every economic problem. Welfare,though needed, should be seondary to Black business investment and better personal financial management comming from Blacks. The money is there for Blacks to do this. Black spending power is now at one trillion dollars. The question is are we going to organize ourselves to channel that money to our benefit?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 13th, 2010, 1:00 pm

Whiskey obviously crimes go unreported, that goes for both Black and White citizens. That does not mean that White people commit more crimes than Black people nor is it a big enough factor to say that Whites commit more crimes than Black people based on that.

For example, according to NYPD police statistics, Black people commit about 68% of violent crime in NYC, 82% of all shootings, and over 70% of all robberies but make up a mere 52% of people stopped for police questioning. Bearing in mind they make up roughly 25% of the cities population. In contrast, White people commit 5% of violent crime, a mere 1% of shootings, and slightly under 5% of robberies yet they are pulled in for police questioning in nearly 15% of cases.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/op ... F0056DA573
Sentenza wrote:Im sure you can back this up? With credible sources?
Positive correlation between poverty/crime:

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?c ... &id=&page=

R/K theory:

psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/P&E%20Crime.pdf
Looking for some good news in a year full of economic woe? Crime was down in 2009. Way down.

According to figures released this week by the FBI, the overall crime rate dropped by 4.4 percent this year. Property crime dropped by 6.1 percent and homicides were down an eye-popping 10 percent. In fact, crime rates have fallen to levels not seen since the 1960s.

It may seem counterintuitive that at the same time a recession has forced more people to live on less, crimes such as car theft and burglary are down markedly in comparison with a year ago – down 19 percent and 2.5 percent, respectively. So why has the picture gotten so much brighter over recent decades?
According to the poverty influencing crime theory, crime ought to rise as poverty increases, which is clearly not the case in this instance, or any others really.
[FONT="Times New Roman"] West Virginia: Dispelling the Myth That Poverty Causes Crime[/FONT]

In 2000, the population of West Virginia was about 1,808,344 people. Whites accounted for about 95.0% of the population. Blacks accounted for about 3.2% of West Virginia's population.

Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SA ... =04000US54

The incidence of violent crime in West Virginia is consistently among the lowest in the nation. As of 2004, West Virginia ranked 45 out of 50 states.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States (all sources provided, including the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2004).

West Virginia is also one of the poorest states in the country. In 2000, the poverty rate in West Virginia was 17.9 percent. The national average was 12.4 percent.

Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SA ... =04000US54

West Virginia, with a poverty rate of 17.2 percent in both 2001 and 2002, was fifth-highest in the poverty ranking. West Virginia's national rank: 45 out of 50 States.

Source: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Arc ... weights=no (Article has been archived and must be purchased)

The States with the lowest percentage of justice employees were West Virginia and North Dakota (less than 8% of all employees). These two States consistently have among the lowest crime rates in the country.

Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/jeeus99.txt

As of 2003, blacks accounted for 3.2% of West Virginia's total population and 34.9% of it's total prison population.

Source: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by punamusta » July 14th, 2010, 5:33 am

Azure9920 wrote: According to the poverty influencing crime theory, crime ought to rise as poverty increases, which is clearly not the case in this instance, or any others really.
Economical depressions most of the time won't increase crime, because people always compare themselves to others and think that others as well are suffering as the media has make it clear that economical depression is on. In the last 15 years we have had two economical depressions here in Finland, and during both of the time periods the crime rate was down. But it went up fast couple of years after the depression.




"Poverty has economic and social impacts. Sometimes, instead of being described as living in poverty, people in Australia who do not possess the living standards of the majority, are thought to be socially marginalised or socially isolated. This is because they may feel excluded from benefits of society that the mainstream enjoy, whether or not this is because of where they live or the amount of money they have.

The widening the gap between rich and poor Australians is likely to increase this sense of social isolation, which will no doubt negatively impact upon social cohesion. This is particularly true of larger urban centres because the inequalities between different areas are much more obvious when they are in the same town or city. The more observable inequalities become, the more likely people are to directly compare their standards of living with those of others around them. This can have the effect of reducing the sense of mutual belonging and respect that is important for maintaining social cohesion in any community, however large or small."
http://squirk.net/p-c_s-16_u-140_t-417_ ... n-elements




The points that I've bolded are the most important. People look at the rich people around them and think that they themselves (the poor people) have been left alone while in the other hand those wealthier people have it all. And that is the main problem. Without a doubt in USA, too.

The income gap is bigger factor in crime than just pure poverty. You got many African and Asian countries that are very poor, and yet there is not sifficant crime problem. But when you look at countries like Brazil, Russia, USA, etc. you can easily see how huge income gaps create crime and other social problems.

Here's also a pretty good text about the link between poverty and crime in USA with some good points:
http://buddha684.wordpress.com/2010/02/ ... -of-crime/

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by punamusta » July 14th, 2010, 5:37 am

Now, look at the state in USA with the biggest income gap between the poor and the rich people. I don't know what state that would be (California maybe?), but I bet that in that state crime is a bigger problem than in a state with the lowest income gap.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 14th, 2010, 12:24 pm

Azure9920 wrote:
According to the poverty influencing crime theory, crime ought to rise as poverty increases, which is clearly not the case in this instance, or any others really.
Of course there is the political will by some to link criminal behaviour with race. That scheme of thinking is as old as humanity. Back in the days it were the Jews poisoning the wells, cheating everybody for their money, killing little children in religious ceremonies and so on, because it was "in their genes". Everybody "knew" it and it was fact.

Of course poverty is not the only factor. Other factors are a functioning society, a framework of functional families, social control, ethics, education, the chance to develop yourself without being faced with systematic racism and segregation and the likes.
It is funny that your essay mentioned West Virginia because:

West Virginia: Country's Most Racist Voters
So why is West Virginia more racist than the former Confederate states? One reason might be lack of contact with blacks. The exit polls indicated that voters were 95% white, and only 3% black. Whites may hold on to bigotry when they rarely encounter blacks and do not have their stereotypes challenged. However, Obama has done very well in other all-white states, including Iowa and Vermont.

Perhaps it reflects economics. West Virginia (like the second most racist state, Arkansas) tends to be a poor white-dominated state. In the face of poverty, many people don't cling to guns or religion. They cling to racism.

The Republican Party's rise to power in recent decades has largely depended upon the fact that impoverished whites blame blacks rather than corporations for their problems. Without these racist whites, Republicans such as Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush could never have won.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-k-wi ... 01651.html


It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that blacks are probably a little bit faced with unfair treatment on a everyday basis.

You will have rural areas in africa, that still live the traditional way and which will have a crime rate of about zero. Same counts for other parts of the world.
Japan always had a pretty low crime rate, because punishments were severe and even more importantly it has always had strict social control. Which means families are tight and society disregards criminal activities as a total dishonorable act, that will dishonor your whole family for generations, which is worse then any punishment.
Therefore people will resort to crime less often. You have the same in the Islamic world. Cairo, a city of 20+ million people living there has an absolutely ridiculously low crime rate for its size, because socitey and "the family" is mostly intact and social control is severe. The people there are dirt poor, but yet still aer less likely to resort to crimnal behaviour then any big city in the United states.
But, all this changes, when you dont have those structures of a functioning family or society. When people are torn out of their background and pitted up against each other forced to fight for economic survival everyday just to put some lunch on the table, they will resort to crime.
You should also keep in mind that among the countries in the world with the highest murder and crime rates are a couple of white and latin countries along with african ones. This doesnt make sense at all if it would be related to race (which doesnt even exist technically).
But here is some more:
I would say that in this country it would be hard to argue that there is not a relationship between crime and poverty. Poor people make up the overwhelming majority of those behind bars as 53% of those in prison earned less than $10,000 per year before incarceration.

Sociologist and criminal justice scholars have found a direct correlation between poverty and crime. One economic theory of crime assumes that people weigh the consequences of committing crime. They resort to crime only if the cost or consequences are outweighed by the potential benefits to be gained. The logical conclusion to this theory is that people living in poverty are far more likely to commit property crimes such as burglary, larceny, or theft.
If poverty were a disease it would be the most insidious, devastating, and life threatening disease that Americans suffer. The poor suffer not just economically, but they also suffer lack of opportunity, lack of education, lack of health care, and significantly more violence than others better situated in the community. They suffer higher disease rates, death rates and imprisonment than their affluent brethren. They are imprisoned at much higher rates and they are executed for capital crimes more often than any other group. In fact, they are almost the exclusive recipients of the death penalty.
http://www.pubdef.ocgov.com/poverty.htm

Oh yea and about the crisis not effecting the crime rate:
U.S. recession fuels crime rise, police chiefs say

(Reuters) - Police chiefs in the United States say the economic downturn is fueling a rise in crime and warn that cuts to their budgets could handcuff their efforts to tackle it, according to a report on Tuesday.

[...]

Crime has increased during every recession since the late 1950s, sociologists said.

[...]

Of the 100 agencies who linked crime rises to the economic crisis, 39 percent said they had seen an increase in robberies, 32 percent an uptick in burglaries and 40 percent an increase in thefts from vehicles.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50Q6FR20090127

It is a typical right wing/racist myth that poverty has nothing to do with the crime rate.
It expresses the wish to blame the black/brown guy [or insert any other minority that comes to your mind) for all the problems.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 14th, 2010, 1:34 pm

Sentenza wrote:Of course there is the political will by some to link criminal behaviour with race.
Yeah, all that racist media is causing Black people to commit crimes in disproportionate numbers, I forgot.

Of course poverty is not the only factor. Other factors are a functioning society, a framework of functional families, social control, ethics, education, the chance to develop yourself without being faced with systematic racism and segregation and the likes.
It is funny that your essay mentioned West Virginia because:

West Virginia: Country's Most Racist Voters
Well they may be poverty stricken racists, but they sure aren't going out and killing people.
But, all this changes, when you dont have those structures of a functioning family or society. When people are torn out of their background and pitted up against each other forced to fight for economic survival everyday just to put some lunch on the table, they will resort to crime.
Yes, I agree that a dysfunctional family life plays a role in developing criminality, perhaps even moreso than the link between poverty and criminal behavior. However, familial structure is based upon the cultural environment, which in turn is influenced largely by genetic predispositions; hence the racial aspect of crime. You can't defend the high Black crime rate by pointing out the widespread dysfunction of Black communities in the US because those living conditions are created largely due to their culture.
You should also keep in mind that among the countries in the world with the highest murder and crime rates are a couple of white and latin countries along with african ones. This doesnt make sense at all if it would be related to race (which doesnt even exist technically).
Don't even start with that race doesn't exist crap because you're going to look like a fool if you keep pushing that agenda.

Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population by region and subregion
:

Southern Africa 37.3
Central America 29.3
West and Central Africa 21.6
East Africa 20.8
Caribbean 18.1

I don't really have the time to check it out, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Carribbean nations with the highest homicide rates also coincidentally have either Black majority populations or a sizable Black majority that contributes a higher than population average amount of murders.

Due to the widespread corruption and state of near chaos found in many Central and South African nations, the actual murder rate is likely much higher.

I would say that in this country it would be hard to argue that there is not a relationship between crime and poverty. Poor people make up the overwhelming majority of those behind bars as 53% of those in prison earned less than $10,000 per year before incarceration.
I don't think anyone is trying to say there isn't a link between poverty and crime, but rather my point being that the relationship is not the dominant factor behind criminality that you believe it to be. Note that roughly 50% of the US prison population is also African American, roughly equal to the percentage that are poor prior to incarceration.
The logical conclusion to this theory is that people living in poverty are far more likely to commit property crimes such as burglary, larceny, or theft.
Hence offering no explanation for the supposed role poverty has on homicide, shootings, rapes, etc.
Crime has increased during every recession since the late 1950s, sociologists said.
Classic red herring. This does not substantiate a link between poverty and crime. For example, the crime rate may have risen during this past recession compared to say, 2 or 3 years ago, but the rate is still much, much lower than the late 80's, when the economy was undergoing expansion yet also managed to produce record setting crime waves all across the country.
It is a typical right wing/racist myth that poverty has nothing to do with the crime rate.
I think an ESL class might be in order here, or perhaps you've just missed this:
There is a slight positive correlation between wealth and violent crime in North America
Yeah, I said that in my first post.
t expresses the wish to blame the black/brown guy [or insert any other minority that comes to your mind) for all the problems.
Well when it's the Black(not so much the brown guys) are the ones going out raping and murdering people, then yes, the blame ought to fall squarely on them, should it not? I know there's a bit of a can't do any wrong attitude amongst the politically correct factions that pervade society, but this is taking it a little far, wouldn't you say?

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 15th, 2010, 5:09 am

Azure9920 wrote: Yeah, all that racist media is causing Black people to commit crimes in disproportionate numbers, I forgot.
No, its a myth that its related to race. Just like race is a myth.
Azure9920 wrote: Well they may be poverty stricken racists, but they sure aren't going out and killing people.
No, but obviously taking care that blacks are incarcerated at a bewildering rate.
Azure9920 wrote: Yes, I agree that a dysfunctional family life plays a role in developing criminality, perhaps even moreso than the link between poverty and criminal behavior. However, familial structure is based upon the cultural environment, which in turn is influenced largely by genetic predispositions; hence the racial aspect of crime. You can't defend the high Black crime rate by pointing out the widespread dysfunction of Black communities in the US because those living conditions are created largely due to their culture.
Culture is genetic. Wow. No we are entering National-Socialist waters.

Azure9920 wrote: Don't even start with that race doesn't exist crap because you're going to look like a fool if you keep pushing that agenda.
As long as scientist back me up (those who arent sponsored by people with a racial agenda, like the Bell Curve guys), ill keep saying it.
Azure9920 wrote: Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population by region and subregion[/b]:

Southern Africa 37.3
Central America 29.3
West and Central Africa 21.6
East Africa 20.8
Caribbean 18.1
Crime Statistics: Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country

# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
# 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
# 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
# 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
# 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people

Whats with all these eastern europeans? And all the latinos? Is it in their genes? Or are it all those african immigrants there committing all these murders? Care to explain?
Azure9920 wrote: I don't think anyone is trying to say there isn't a link between poverty and crime,

Actually that is exactly what you said:
Azure9920 wrote: According to the poverty influencing crime theory, crime ought to rise as poverty increases, which is clearly not the case in this instance, or any others really.
viewtopic.php?p=8727120#p8727120
Azure9920 wrote: but rather my point being that the relationship is not the dominant factor behind criminality that you believe it to be. Note that roughly 50% of the US prison population is also African American, roughly equal to the percentage that are poor prior to incarceration.
Agree. I dont think its a coincidence that the incarceration rates match the poverty rate almost perfectly.
Azure9920 wrote: Classic red herring. This does not substantiate a link between poverty and crime. For example, the crime rate may have risen during this past recession compared to say, 2 or 3 years ago, but the rate is still much, much lower than the late 80's, when the economy was undergoing expansion yet also managed to produce record setting crime waves all across the country.
Im guessing it has to do with the increase of poverty during the Reagan era?
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1979: 11.7%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1980: 13.0%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1981: 14.0%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1982: 15.0%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1983: 15.2%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1984: 14.4%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1985: 14.0%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1986: 13.6%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1987: 13.4%
Percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 1988: 13.0%
http://www.shmoop.com/reagan-era/statistics.html
Azure9920 wrote:
Well when it's the Black(not so much the brown guys) are the ones going out raping and murdering people, then yes, the blame ought to fall squarely on them, should it not? I know there's a bit of a can't do any wrong attitude amongst the politically correct factions that pervade society, but this is taking it a little far, wouldn't you say?
I'd rather be "politically correct" then factually incorrect. As a matter of fact i find it quite amusing to conceal racist ideologies under the cloak of an "oppressed message of truth".

Then its not Ciudad Juarez which has the worlds highest murder rate? And its not these South American drug infested countries who are on par with those predominantly black countries you mentioned?
America has always had a problem with crime, before black people were even free to roam the streets. 5 Points in New York, the Wild West etc. had skyrocketing murder rates, yet only white people were involved. If its in peoples genes to commit crimes it obviously is in all humans. We have more then enough proof for that.
But like i said before: Racism is like a religion. It doesnt need proof, it doesnt need scientific backup and it cant be argued with.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 15th, 2010, 8:24 am

Btw. here is another interesting image in addition to what i already said:

Image

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 15th, 2010, 10:52 am

Sentenza wrote:No, its a myth that its related to race. Just like race is a myth.
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". There is no scientific basis for your belief that race does not exist.
No, but obviously taking care that blacks are incarcerated at a bewildering rate.
But that doesn't really matter; the topic is about poverty and its supposedly irrefutable causation effect on criminal behavior. What explanation do you have for the low crime rates of poor, but almost entirely White West Virginia?
Culture is genetic. Wow. No we are entering National-Socialist waters.
LOL! You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. If your only refutation of a valid point is by calling me a racist, then this conversation is a waste of both mine and your time.

faculty.weber.edu/.../Genes%20x%20Envir ... ultion.pdf

Example: The use of milk by certain ethnic groups is caused by their ability to digest lactose, whereas some groups can't drink milk because they can't digest lactose. In this instance, the genetic makeup of the people(lactose tolerance) affects the cultural behavior of the people(drinking milk).

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 202513.htm
As long as scientist back me up (those who arent sponsored by people with a racial agenda, like the Bell Curve guys), ill keep saying it.
Yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist. I thought you Europeans were supposed to be enlightened, free thinkers?

What evidence do you have that suggests that there are no differences between people from say, Nigeria, and Mongolia?

Oh, here's one for ya;

The genetic distance between the Bantu tribe and a German is approximately 0.20%, roughly a 5th of a percentage point. The genetic distance between a Chihuahua and a Grey wolf is also coincidentally roughly a 5th of a percentage point.

Think about that for a moment before you reply please.
Whats with all these eastern europeans? And all the latinos? Is it in their genes? Or are it all those african immigrants there committing all these murders? Care to explain?
Firstly, I'd like to point out that those statistics are well over a decade old, coinciding with he period of de-Sovietization in Eastern Europe. During that transitional phase, I'm not at all surprised that they would produce high crime rates given the state of chaos that the switch to democracy temporarily caused. Note that in 2009, Estonia had a murder rate of slightly above 7, still remarkably high for a European nation, but much lower than many African nations, Latvia also currently has a lower murder rate than the United States.

In addition, I previously stated that African crime statistics are difficult to judge due to the levels of instability and corruption found in many African states. Many countries, such as the Congo and Somali do not produce crime statistics due to the turmoil in their nations, and many others have been producing numbers substantially lower than the realistic amount of crime occurring.
Actually that is exactly what you said:
I never, ever said poverty doesn't influence crime here, I've been saying it's just not the biggest factor affecting criminality. If you notice my first post, I clearly state and then produce a study supporting the positive correlation between the two.

You have no need to lie.
Im guessing it has to do with the increase of poverty during the Reagan era?
More to due with the coca plant I'd say.
I'd rather be "politically correct" then factually incorrect. As a matter of fact i find it quite amusing to conceal racist ideologies under the cloak of an "oppressed message of truth".
I dare you to find a SINGLE factually incorrect statement that I have made, and then contrast my statement with empirical evidence refuting it.

GO!

Lemme know when you give up.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 15th, 2010, 10:56 am

I'd also like to point out that Cameroon(one of the countries on your map) is one of the African nations in which the reported murder rate is a severe contrast to the actual situation in the nation.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 15th, 2010, 12:03 pm

Azure9920 wrote:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt". There is no scientific basis for your belief that race does not exist.
Well the Human Genome Project says otherwise. Thats enough for me.
Azure9920 wrote: But that doesn't really matter; the topic is about poverty and its supposedly irrefutable causation effect on criminal behavior. What explanation do you have for the low crime rates of poor, but almost entirely White West Virginia?
For the same reason that people in Cameroon or Mali have low rates of violence and crime.
Azure9920 wrote: LOL! You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. If your only refutation of a valid point is by calling me a racist, then this conversation is a waste of both mine and your time.
I dont believe that you are a Nazi. But what you stated is one of their fundamental beliefs. Not my fault.
It was/is one fundamental believe of National Socialists that culture coems from genetic disposition. It should make you ask yourself why there is this proximity of beliefs.
Azure9920 wrote: Example: The use of milk by certain ethnic groups is caused by their ability to digest lactose, whereas some groups can't drink milk because they can't digest lactose. In this instance, the genetic makeup of the people(lactose tolerance) affects the cultural behavior of the people(drinking milk).
Yes and these groups spread through all races. There is not a single criteria by which you can clearly draw a line between people.
Azure9920 wrote: Yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist. I thought you Europeans were supposed to be enlightened, free thinkers?
Everyone who believes in the existance of races is by definition a racist. I dont even care or give it a negative connotation, cause the mind is free. Who said that europeans are free-thinkers? We invented that BS.
Azure9920 wrote: What evidence do you have that suggests that there are no differences between people from say, Nigeria, and Mongolia?
The human genome.
But just because some members of a population might carry a specific gene form, doesn't mean all members do. Only a small percentage of Ashkenazi Jews carry the Tay-Sachs allele. When a couple I know were screened upon their pregnancy, the non-Jewish partner was found to be the Tay-Sachs carrier, not the Jewish one.

That's because most human variation falls within, not between populations. About 85% of all genetic variation can, on average, be found within any local population, be they Swedes, Kikuyu, or Hmong. About 94% can be found within any continental population, consistent with what the Rosenberg Science study found. In fact, there are no characteristics, no traits, not even one gene that turns up in all members of one so-called race yet is absent from others.
http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whatdiff.htm
Templeton analyzed genetic data from mitochondrial DNA, a form inherited only from the maternal side; Y chromosome DNA, paternally inherited DNA; and nuclear DNA, inherited from both sexes. His results showed that 85 percent of genetic variation in the human DNA was due to individual variation. A mere 15 percent could be traced to what could be interpreted as "racial" differences.

"The 15 percent is well below the threshold that is used to recognize race in other species," Templeton says. "In many other large mammalian species, we see rates of differentiation two or three times that of humans before the lineages are even recognized as races.

Among Templeton's conclusions: there is more genetic similarity between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, inhabitants of islands northeast of Australia, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. Yet, sub-Saharan Africans and Melanesians share dark skin, hair texture and cranial-facial features, traits commonly used to classify people into races. According to Templeton, this example shows that "racial traits" are grossly incompatible with overall genetic differences between human populations.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 071098.php

Resurrecting Racism: The modern attack on black people using phony science.
http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrchap3.htm

"The idea of race in the human species serves no purpose. The structure of human populations is extremely complex and changes from area to area; there are always nuances deriving from continual migration across and within the borders of every nation, which make clear distinctions impossible"
http://www.assemblage.group.shef.ac.uk/2/2evison2.html
Oh, here's one for ya;

The genetic distance between the Bantu tribe and a German is approximately 0.20%, roughly a 5th of a percentage point. The genetic distance between a Chihuahua and a Grey wolf is also coincidentally roughly a 5th of a percentage point.

Think about that for a moment before you reply please.
Yes and probably the difference between me and you is also 0.20%, because most variations are owed to individual mutations.
They have found people from belgium who are more closely related to tribes from Cameroon than some of their fellow countrymen.

Azure9920 wrote: Firstly, I'd like to point out that those statistics are well over a decade old, coinciding with he period of de-Sovietization in Eastern Europe. During that transitional phase, I'm not at all surprised that they would produce high crime rates given the state of chaos that the switch to democracy temporarily caused. Note that in 2009, Estonia had a murder rate of slightly above 7, still remarkably high for a European nation, but much lower than many African nations, Latvia also currently has a lower murder rate than the United States.

In addition, I previously stated that African crime statistics are difficult to judge due to the levels of instability and corruption found in many African states. Many countries, such as the Congo and Somali do not produce crime statistics due to the turmoil in their nations, and many others have been producing numbers substantially lower than the realistic amount of crime occurring.
You could say the same about eastern european countries. I wonder why you are quick at hand with excuses for crime rates like that but yet when black people are concerned you blame it on race?

But here you go. More recent stuff:

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/c ... page_2.htm

And what if i show you some murderers, serial killers and crime bosses in South America, that by your definition would clearly belong to the white race and which are responsible for a large part of the worlds murders. Hows that explainable racially?
I want genetic explanations, not other ones, since with black people you dont let anything count either.
Azure9920 wrote: More to due with the coca plant I'd say.
That also.
Azure9920 wrote: I dare you to find a SINGLE factually incorrect statement that I have made, and then contrast my statement with empirical evidence refuting it.

GO!

Lemme know when you give up.
You go and explain where i have been politically correct and what political correctness is and i will tell you why negative racist stereotypes are factually incorrect.

Also it is entertaining how racists want to evade the label of being a racist but insist on judging everyone else of being inferior.
That is like the vegetarian wanting to not be labelled as such, while eating a salad.
Whats the need for it? Whats the drive of wishing to put other people into the dirt because of their looks? Care to explain?
I dont think it is necessary, unless you plan on bad things.
Look at the Holocaust, Slavery etc.
Those were the results of racism.
There is nothing beneficial to get from it.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Sentenza » July 15th, 2010, 12:06 pm

Azure9920 wrote:I'd also like to point out that Cameroon(one of the countries on your map) is one of the African nations in which the reported murder rate is a severe contrast to the actual situation in the nation.
Yes, like in West Virgina. They are dirt poor, but murder and crime rates are low.
Basically the situation is the same. Why do you make excuses for the people of West Virginia, but try to work around the situation in Cameroon or any of those other countries?
Its called Ockhams razor. When a ideology conflicts with reality, you gotta work around it, so it fits again.

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 15th, 2010, 6:55 pm

Sentenza wrote:For the same reason that people in Cameroon or Mali have low rates of violence and crime.
You didn't answer the question. No need for diversion tactics.
I dont believe that you are a Nazi. But what you stated is one of their fundamental beliefs. Not my fault.
It was/is one fundamental believe of National Socialists that culture coems from genetic disposition. It should make you ask yourself why there is this proximity of beliefs.
What I stated is a scientific fact, deduced from the very same work your beloved genome project is working on.
Yes and these groups spread through all races. There is not a single criteria by which you can clearly draw a line between people.
Yes, there are physical and behavioral criteria that represent differences between racial groupings and sub-groupings, ranging from cranial capacity, hormone levels, rate of physical development, occurrence of twins, gestation, and so on and so forth.
The human genome.
Again, you didn't answer my question.
In fact, there are no characteristics, no traits, not even one gene that turns up in all members of one so-called race yet is absent from others.
I'll ignore your obviously biased resource and instead focus on the factual errors in the quote.
A mere 15 percent could be traced to what could be interpreted as "racial" differences.
Yes, and that mere 15% is accountable for a wide variety of differences, physical or otherwise. You cannot sincerely sit here and argue the point that there are no identifiable variations between a Japanese person and an Italian, it's ludicrous.
"The 15 percent is well below the threshold that is used to recognize race in other species," Templeton says. "In many other large mammalian species, we see rates of differentiation two or three times that of humans before the lineages are even recognized as races.
Absolutely incorrect, as I pointed out previously, the difference between a fully domesticated Chihuahua and a Grey wolf is roughly equal to the genetic distance between any European and the Bantu.
Among Templeton's conclusions: there is more genetic similarity between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, inhabitants of islands northeast of Australia, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. Yet, sub-Saharan Africans and Melanesians share dark skin, hair texture and cranial-facial features, traits commonly used to classify people into races. According to Templeton, this example shows that "racial traits" are grossly incompatible with overall genetic differences between human populations.
Firstly, the criteria used to classify humans based on race is not solely limited to physical features like skin color, but rather a wide variety of traits and gene expressions that differ slightly from group to group. The fact that Sub-Saharan Africans and Europeans are more closely related than Melanisians does not deny the fact that there are genetic differences between those populations.
Yes and probably the difference between me and you is also 0.20%, because most variations are owed to individual mutations.
They have found people from belgium who are more closely related to tribes from Cameroon than some of their fellow countrymen.
Ethnic Belgians with no Sub-Saharan roots? I'd like to see that.
You could say the same about eastern european countries. I wonder why you are quick at hand with excuses for crime rates like that but yet when black people are concerned you blame it on race?
I don't directly blame race for the troubles found in Africa or even African Americans; I blame dysfunctional people for those crimes. Unfortunately, a host of cultural variables have caused people of African descent to be plagued with problems such as low intelligence, mental disorder, high levels of testosterone, etc.

Obviously since the Eastern European nations have rebuilt themselves, the crime rates have substantially dropped. Russia's relatively recent upsurge in criminal activity stems from this transition as well and has been fostered due to a severely corrupted state. Russia is another country that I don't trust the crime stats from, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually much higher than reported.
And what if i show you some murderers, serial killers and crime bosses in South America, that by your definition would clearly belong to the white race and which are responsible for a large part of the worlds murders. Hows that explainable racially?
I want genetic explanations, not other ones, since with black people you dont let anything count either
Well, if you take a glance at the countries with the highest murder rates(Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil), they also coincidentally happen to be the South American nations with the highest Black populations. Compare Brazil's murder rate of 25 or Jamaica's rate of 59 to predominately White nations like Uruguay, Peru or Argentina with their murder rates hovering at a modest 5 per 100,000 persons.
Whats the need for it? Whats the drive of wishing to put other people into the dirt because of their looks? Care to explain?
The fact that Black people commit crimes doesn't have anything to do with skin color.
I dont think it is necessary, unless you plan on bad things.
Look at the Holocaust, Slavery etc.
Those were the results of racism.
There is nothing beneficial to get from it.
The Holocaust wasn't motivated by racism in the sense that it targeted White people almost exclusively,

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Re: Jobs & Crime Reduction

Unread post by Azure9920 » July 15th, 2010, 6:57 pm

Sentenza wrote:Yes, like in West Virgina. They are dirt poor, but murder and crime rates are low.
Basically the situation is the same. Why do you make excuses for the people of West Virginia, but try to work around the situation in Cameroon or any of those other countries?
Its called Ockhams razor. When a ideology conflicts with reality, you gotta work around it, so it fits again.
If you honestly can't differentiate between a developed, American state and undeveloped, corruption ridden nations like many African states then we really shouldn't be having this conversation.

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