WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

These concepts are socially constructed and have been given much weight. What are your thoughts?
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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 11th, 2004, 1:49 pm

meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meeeooooowwwww!

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by CHRIS » October 11th, 2004, 5:32 pm

Kemosave wrote:meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meeeooooowwwww!


IT WOULD BE SAFE TO SAY THIS CAT IS STRANGE. WHAT MADE YOU TYPE ALL THAT?

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 12th, 2004, 1:58 pm

CHRIS wrote:
Kemosave wrote:meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meeeooooowwwww!


IT WOULD BE SAFE TO SAY THIS CAT IS STRANGE. WHAT MADE YOU TYPE ALL THAT?


You're too young to know anything so ask your OG what meow means. lolol..

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by caineIsignz » October 12th, 2004, 2:03 pm

I came here from Poland

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by project blowed » October 14th, 2004, 9:56 pm

Panik wrote:Again, we get no facts, but a tearfull victim speach again from lonewolf. If you can't post a damn fact, then stop posting. As for corruption, there exists corruption in every society in the world. There always will be. It is human nature. The main factor is though is there more corruption than there are people doing the right thing? In America, we have more people doing right than are corrupt. That it what keeps us at the top of our game. In Mexico, corrution is a way of life for the majority of it's people. There are no moral problems involved with bribes, or lawbreaking. Most mexicans view this as a way of life, and nothing wrong with it. Here in america, only the criminal classes think this way, there is a large majority of non criminal types who have principals and morals when dealing with life decisions. Yes, our government and big companies have done bad things. But in the end, MOST are held accountable for their actions. In Mexico, it is a free for all. Everyone from the parking police to the generals of it's army take bribes as a part of doing business. People in general look the other way when wroings are being commited, and like I said before, all they have to do is vote their conscince, and not vote for whatever political party gave them a bottle of tequila, and maybe their country will improve. But the truth is, they don't really care whether it gets better or not. They always have the USA to take care of them. What they need is some tough love. Seal the borders and make sure they cannot get in illegally. Refuse schooling, hospital care, and jobs to all illegals so they go back home volentarily. Then once they are all stuck in Mexico, hopefully they look at each other and figure out it's time to do something positive with themselves and make their country a better place, instead of being happy to just stay alive and have beer to drink, they should worry about having a nice place for their kids to grow up in, and not teach their children that it's OK to break the law when it bbenefits you. That is a horrible lesson to teach children, but that is exactly what every illegal is doing. They should have thier kids taken away. Just like any other criminal. And first thing on their list should be this. QUIT HAVING #%@& KIDS WHEN YOU CANT AFFORD TO FEED THE ONESZ YOU GOT. WTF? Just becasue the Catholic Church tells you not to use condoms doesn't mean you can't. Is the Church going to feed you 11 chiuldren? No. Having families that you cannot possibly support will continue to keep the whole country (culture) of mexico down. It forces the children to stop their educations young and work to help feed a ridiculously large family, so then you just have more uneducated unskilled people having more and more kids that will end up the same. If you live in a shack in mexico, you have no business having 3,4,5,7,9 kids. That is child abuse and you should have your nuts cut off, or your ovaries popped out. As a people, you will always be at the bottom of the barrel if you continue on this path.


i agree with you on one thing involved with these boards when debates come up - FACTS.

although i'm a newb here it would be nice if people would use some sort referencing to back up their evidence. such as: (author last name or source of evidence, followed by year it was made)

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 15th, 2004, 7:13 pm

Question from jsantana to lonewolf:

What are your feelings on illegal immigration?

Answer: Having family with long established roots in Tejas, Califas, Arizona, Nuevo Mejico as well as Old Mejico, Baja Califas, Chihuahua and Jalisco, I'm on both sides of the fence, still clinging to both worlds by living among the two at the border of San Diego and Tijuana.
I try to keep them in perspective; I know very well the hardship my people face in our beloved Mejico, especially with a government that continuously fails to meet the needs of the people. But also I see the impact that illegal immigration creates on the local level in regards to jobs, schools, crime, medical services, and so forth. For the most part, there is so much bogus statistics on the illegal immigrants' impact on the communities and businesses. My people would not continue to risk their lives in coming across the border, if there were not anyone wishing to hire them and offer them work. Some states like Califas have considerably closed their doors, but others like Oklahoma, Idaho, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee need them, and look the other way when it comes to enforcing the established laws.
On the political and patriotic arena, we Mexico-Americanos are just as much loyal and willing to put our lives and money for the defense and well-being of the nation as a whole. Even those of us that refuse to assimilate, by doing away with our heritage.
Legal immigration is always preferred, but as NAFTA has created a massive dislocation of people from the rural areas, as well as in the small business sector in the cities, you can bet your whatever, that they will continue to come any which way they can find.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 16th, 2004, 1:59 pm

Panik brings a lot of truth to the board on this issue. Doesn't mean I agree with his conclusion (I'm for a compromised solution) but I appreciate the way he communicates truth as he understands it.

Now I think lonewolf is pointing out very big problem without realizing it. He is illustrating the divided loyalties that he has and that most Mexicans have in my opinion. I believe at this time all Mexican Americans have dual citizenship as a result of the Mexican President's power move granting them it recently. Divided loyalties.

The Orange County Register reported 69 schools in Santa Ana are on the road to being federally taken over because they can't find 9% of the students who can pass a "no student left behind" test appropriate for their age group in English.

Many now are saying that Mexican Americans do not view themselves as Americans and resist integration into our society preferring to view themselves as Mexican citizens living in America.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 16th, 2004, 4:35 pm

Kemosave wrote:Panik brings a lot of truth to the board on this issue. Doesn't mean I agree with his conclusion (I'm for a compromised solution) but I appreciate the way he communicates truth as he understands it.

Lonewolf's reply: Sure Panico brings "thruth" from the perspective of those that would like to simplify things in relation as to the illegal immigration problem, without looking at how the other side looks at it. Illegals are demonized because of the problems that grow worse in our society, but the fact remains that illegals from Mexico have been coming in to California for over 100 years now, they have always with time becomed American citizens and millions of them over the times have done great service to this nation, but when they are made a scapegoat for many of the ills of this nation - a lot of us forget their contributions and the reasons why they come here - the fact is they continue to come because it is a better living from where they left - no doubt about it, but they would not come unless there was opportunity waiting for them here - which there is, and many would not come unless they felt some attachment to their land here - which there is. Many would like to be rid of them and beleive that all would be sweet after, and that is an oversimplification of issues afecting our state and our nation - because many of the issues can be served better through planning and better laws and goverment. People ignore real issues about white & blue collar jobs being lost in the thousands each month to overseas, leaving us to compete for fewer and fewer decent paying jobs with benefits, and many of us find ourselves competing for the same jobs and service for which in the past we didn't care if some illegal was doing it - cause we surely wouldn't do them then. That is what I take issue with, this oversimplification of issues and demonizing of people, wether they be from my ancestral land Mexico or from China. We use illegals when it suits our porposes and then want to discard them when they are no longer of use to us - that is wrong man - where is our sense of fair play in this society wich we try to promote to the world as the light of the world ?

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 16th, 2004, 4:47 pm

Kemosave wrote:Now I think lonewolf is pointing out very big problem without realizing it. He is illustrating the divided loyalties that he has and that most Mexicans have in my opinion. I believe at this time all Mexican Americans have dual citizenship as a result of the Mexican President's power move granting them it recently. Divided loyalties.

Lonewolf's reply: I don't have a divide loyalty period, It is dificult to communicate how a lot of us feel and it can be mis-understood. I would give my life for the United States just as readily as for Mexico, there is many commonalities between the two countries, and while we fight a war in Iraq and Afghanistan, we forget that Mexican-Americans and Mejicanos stand together with all Americans if not in arms - surely in mind and spirit - for we have the same western society beleifs like Christianity, commerce, openess, cultural diversification, shared history, just to name a few, so why make more enemies within our borders ? don't we have enough enemies world wide ? The problem is that many look at our dual loyalty as questionable and dismiss it as a divided loyalty or such - but this is far from the thruth, we know how corrupted Mexico's goverment is, and how little they do for the people - don't nobody wants a conflict between these two nations ever again (only the haters), so while our goverments understand this to a point, the rest in the streets fuel themselves with hate and fuel the fire creating more of an atmosphere of conflict - and this is not good - period.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 16th, 2004, 5:05 pm

Kemosave wrote:The Orange County Register reported 69 schools in Santa Ana are on the road to being federally taken over because they can't find 9% of the students who can pass a "no student left behind" test appropriate for their age group in English.

Lonewolf's reply: I said it before about me having to sign a waiver in the L.A. Unified School District in order to get my young ones out of spanish speaking classes only - they didn't need to be there - they speak fluent English, better than my low I.Q. ass. I found out several things about how the schools fock around with funding, the fact is that is you have a child in classes where they need to be teached english - then more money is alocated for that child's education, therefore the more kids the schools report to the goverment as needing this education - the more money they receive and can be used for salaries, days off paid, materials, and all that goes with it, now when they send those cards home that ask what is your primary language that is used at home - if you write down "spanish" then automatically your kid(s) are put in those lists of children needing that education - regardless wether they need it or not - mine did not need it, but ignorant me being honest about speaking spanish (really spanglish) at home fell in to the trap until I discovered how it works, and mind you they (schools) don't volunteer this info.
The other issue with this education is the fact that the schools will prolong the teaching of spanish as opposed to quickly teaching the english language, what they do now is that they will teach you correct spanish, writting, reading and all, and make you proficient in it before they begin to teach you english, this is done so they say because you can't learn proper english unless you can relate it to proper spanish - what kind of b.s. is that ? This only prolongs the problem and keeps the money coming in from those ESL programs.
Now until the goverment stepped in with this law of no child left behind, schools were content with the status quo with no real effort to integrate the young ones - whom are very quick to adapt and learn - kids will surprise you how quick they pick up on things - no lie.
Now you have cities that have extremely high percentages of illegal immigrants, why is that ? Maybe because they can't afford to live in other communities or cities ? If that is the case, don't you think the County and the State should step in and see what is going on altogether ?
I don't have all the answers, I'm far from thinking that at all, but I do beleive that better thinking in our goverment would bring better solutions that would make a greater impact as to the whole illegal immigrant problem, and not just simplifying matters by "more border patrol & more deportations", I said it before I work in conjuction with Border Patrol and other Enforcement Agencies, and guess what - that don't stop them - so the answer must lye somewhere else.
Last edited by Lonewolf on October 16th, 2004, 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 16th, 2004, 5:28 pm

Kemosave wrote:Many now are saying that Mexican Americans do not view themselves as Americans and resist integration into our society preferring to view themselves as Mexican citizens living in America.
That is an in-correct beleif assumed true by many whom mis-interpret Mexican-Americans in general and wish to bunch all in the same. Just like there is those of us in either the Democratic or Republican camps, so also our views differ from generational Mex-Americans and more recent Mejicanos. For a fact we cling to many of our cultural ways, from language, food, music, religion, and all that goes with it, and for many of us - the beleif is that we don't need to become whites in order to be American, we beleive that we can retain a part of our culture while still integrating into the American way of life and how things are done here. A hell of a lot of us can easily be mistake for Anglos if not for our language - right ? We value many things about our culture and are very zealous about it, but we are not blind to the many good things about this society and we blend it in with ours - we don't take it all in - and I don't think others do either - Blacks retain their own flavor, Asians retain theirs too, Arabs keep their religion and language as well, but we stand out because we are in the tens millions and growing with a motherland right next door to us. Needless to say we have shed our blood for this nation, and we have never committed a terrorist act, at least not in the magnitude and hatred of timothy mcveigh or the KKK, and we have never stringged up a Black man for political reasons. We love hamburgers and fries just like everybody else does, and we fight for the same rights and liberties that all of our ancestors from all races have fought for in this land. So when you hear people saying that they're Mexican and not American, don't be so judgemental and lump us all in the same, surely we have experienced many wrongs done to us and continue to experience them, just like others have too, and you can't expect bad feelings to disappear to easily, only time and equality will be able to erode this ill feeling - and that is precicely why it is so important that we learn right about each other so that we can climb out of the hole together - for we don't ever want to become like the Balkan's do we ?
Last edited by Lonewolf on October 16th, 2004, 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by xxx » October 16th, 2004, 5:56 pm

Panik wrote:.
Sur's are racist. No different than nazi's, except forthe fact that they are self haters becasue they run with nazi's who would throw a party if every mexican died. They are wannabe nazi's. I hate nobody because of color. Black, brown, white, yellow,red, it don't matter. Sur's HATE blacks, they HATE asians, they LOVE Nazi's. THey are justa f'ed up group of people. Norteno's, I got no problems with.

LONEWOLF AND PANIK, YOU GUYS SRE GREAT DEBATERS BUT
YOU DODGED THIS STATEMENT LONEWOLF, IS THIS TRUE WHAT PANIK IS SAYING?

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 16th, 2004, 6:00 pm

Neutral you have not read my posts about my stand on that Sur versus Norte sh*t, to me it is a divisive ploy used against our own people.
As to haters, well they're in every race - period.
As to sur standing together with nazy's, other people can fill you in on that, the fact is that all this b.s. is after my times in the streets, it never came into play in my adventures - ever.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 18th, 2004, 11:07 am

lonewolf wrote:
Kemosave wrote:Many now are saying that Mexican Americans do not view themselves as Americans and resist integration into our society preferring to view themselves as Mexican citizens living in America.
That is an in-correct beleif assumed true by many whom mis-interpret Mexican-Americans in general and wish to bunch all in the same. Just like there is those of us in either the Democratic or Republican camps, so also our views differ from generational Mex-Americans and more recent Mejicanos. For a fact we cling to many of our cultural ways, from language, food, music, religion, and all that goes with it, and for many of us - the beleif is that we don't need to become whites in order to be American, we beleive that we can retain a part of our culture while still integrating into the American way of life and how things are done here. A hell of a lot of us can easily be mistake for Anglos if not for our language - right ? We value many things about our culture and are very zealous about it, but we are not blind to the many good things about this society and we blend it in with ours - we don't take it all in - and I don't think others do either - Blacks retain their own flavor, Asians retain theirs too, Arabs keep their religion and language as well, but we stand out because we are in the tens millions and growing with a motherland right next door to us. Needless to say we have shed our blood for this nation, and we have never committed a terrorist act, at least not in the magnitude and hatred of timothy mcveigh or the KKK, and we have never stringged up a Black man for political reasons. We love hamburgers and fries just like everybody else does, and we fight for the same rights and liberties that all of our ancestors from all races have fought for in this land. So when you hear people saying that they're Mexican and not American, don't be so judgemental and lump us all in the same, surely we have experienced many wrongs done to us and continue to experience them, just like others have too, and you can't expect bad feelings to disappear to easily, only time and equality will be able to erode this ill feeling - and that is precicely why it is so important that we learn right about each other so that we can climb out of the hole together - for we don't ever want to become like the Balkan's do we ?


Don't assume. Don't be so paranoid when people question your position and begin making false assumptions about them. It's a discussion/debate.

Now I believe that if France, England, Germany, Russia, etc.. suddenly granted dual citizenship to every ancestor that came to America, as Mexico has done, then the government would rewrite the rules.

As for divided loyalties, I believe having dual citizenship qualifies. If the USA and Mexico went to war I wonder who would be fighting for Mexico and who for the USA in Southern California. I don't see that happening in my lifetime and honestly hope it NEVER happens but I would be for the USA and you would be for???

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by cbi562 » October 18th, 2004, 2:18 pm

Let me speak on the war part that Kemosave spoke on. If lets just say you left Mexico to live in America and have a better life in this corrupt country, why would you fight for Mexico? I mean your country never did shit for you and you wouldnt leave your homeland in the first place if there was a better life. So why you stupid mothas would want to fight for Mexico - you better analyze your facts nigga.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 18th, 2004, 6:09 pm

Alright Kimo-Sabe, I'll try a bit to stay civilized.

On the dual citizenship that you mentioned "it is incorrect", the way it works for anyone to obtain it is not automatic just by having Mex blood.

1st - You have to apply for it.

2nd - Then you have to have one of the following ancestors "born" in Mexico -
- a mother or father, a grandmother or grandfather, son or daughter.
If you don't have one of these, then under the Mexican law - one can not obtain Mexican citizenship.

3rd - Or thru marriage with a Mexican "born" person.

That law is being used to a large degree by American citizens of both Mexican and non-mexican origins in order to circumvent the Constitutional Law that prohibits foreign nationals to own "land" in Mexico.
As it has been said before "money talks - BS walks", the U.S. citizenry has been taking advantage of this in order to keep a lot of the lands of which in the past they could only lease or rent, and since they could not own it - many opted not to invest their money in an unsecured venture - but with the loop hole now they can bring that capitol from the U.S. and stretch it down here - and a hell of lot of greenbacks are heading south. If you're not familiar with Baja's coastline communities, Cabo's communities, Guadalajara's & Mexico City's outskirts and well to do communities all over Mexico - let me tell you - they are owned by White Americans that will either marry, or have a son/daughter in Mexico for this porpose and escape the fast paced life in America.
Needles to say a hell of a lot more Mexico-Americanos of U.S. citizenship jumped on the bandwagon real quick - it's a bonanza - why do you think I'm down here ? You can spend a lifetime paying your mortgage or you can build your mansion within a few years - which would you prefer ?

As to what side would I fight for ?

I truly would have to see the reasons for such a war and weight my morals versus patriotism. I understand that you can not see things the way many of us Mex-Am do, I can only say that we are willing to shed our blood and have done so millions of times for this great nation in defence of it's liberty and values of which we also identify with.
Last edited by Lonewolf on October 18th, 2004, 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 18th, 2004, 6:21 pm

cbi562 wrote:Let me speak on the war part that Kemosave spoke on. If lets just say you left Mexico to live in America and have a better life in this corrupt country, why would you fight for Mexico? I mean your country never did shit for you and you wouldnt leave your homeland in the first place if there was a better life. So why you stupid mothas would want to fight for Mexico - you better analyze your facts nigga.
You're speaking as if I just came out of Mexico, I'm 4th generation sir, I do my duty for this great nation, I've already spoken on the heritage of my family and its service as citizens, my junior has been groomed for the Air Force Academy for which we only need a letter from a congressman or a senator for acceptance. So why do you question me as if I'm not loyal ?

Why would we fight for a country that ain't done sh*t for us ?

I don't agree with that 100%, the only way I can try and compare it with - is with the gang. The gang leads you through many wrong turns in life, the gang lets you down many times, the gang will not live out your life, the gang can not get you out of jail, so on and so on - but thru it all - the gang is your family, you have good times and bad times with them, you have ups and downs and eventually you have to move out, but you remain loyal to your gang and value the experience with the Homies.
So it is with our beloved Mexico, there is a bond that ties for life.

You used the phrase "stupid mothas" in reference to me or my people, and I'm going to ask you to refrain your tongue if you would please, if "you" care to have a conversation with me - otherwise later days.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by cbi562 » October 18th, 2004, 11:18 pm

My whole statement was strictly based on "lets just say". Dont tripp loco, aint nobody tryin to diss yall folks. I mean how can I talk shit on yall when I touchdown with bunch of locos who bang for SUR side and them 18s.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 19th, 2004, 1:09 pm

You all need to ask yourselves why "we" are still kicking it strong separate from the "rest". "We" have a bond that can not be broken - it is called "sangre", "we" are a proud people, unique in this "our" land.

MARIACHIS

CUMBIAS

SPANGLISH

REBELLIOUSNESS

MUSTACHES

MENUDO Y TAMALES

HORSES AND DONKEYS

TEQUILA

SEñORITAS

LOWRIDERS

DRESS CODE

"HONOR FOR FAMILY, LAND, BARRIO AND YOUR WORD"

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 19th, 2004, 1:52 pm

Lonewolf, the Mexican government has implemented a double standard by offering easy term dual citizenship to Mexican Americans and no other Americans. In practice this means that only Mexican Americans who fill out the paperwork can take advantage of the land and owning of business in Mexico as a Mexican citizen with no loss of American citizenship: nobody else can. So it ends up being discrimination by the Mexican government in practice regardless of the flowery language you couch it in. Imagine if America had special rules that Mexican Americans could not own land except within certain limited boundaries or run businesses. The reasoning aside, this is what it turns out to be in reality for the rest. It is an unfair racial policy of state sponsored discrimination. It is in your best interest so of course you support it.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 19th, 2004, 2:00 pm

Kimo what do you expect in this world, what did I say "money talks - bs walks", it's all about special interests, you can't put race in such terms because if someone is looking out for their own "goods" then they are being true to their cause whatever that may be, now the U.S. allows for just about anybody to own land or companies and do bussiness here just like if they were citizens, now you get upset because we are losing out on what was once all ours, who do you blame on that ? Mexicans or U.S. Goverment ?

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 19th, 2004, 6:06 pm

The Mexican Government is directly responsible for the policies they implement. You're right this is an economic driven not a race based driven policy, however, given the divided loyalties of many Mexicans in America there is a race component on the face of it (but not materially so to the actual policy).

I see the double standard in countries like Mexico and Japan alive and well. It's an "all for us and none for anyone else" mentality. Economic warfare with protectionism on one side and exploitation on another. It's funny these same countries often claim exploitation but they are the exact ones implementing protectionism while aggressively exploiting the US.

No? I'm throwing it out there. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 19th, 2004, 6:13 pm

The tide is turning - and at a fast pace.
Now you can understand why I try an make a point in the direction of better trade policy to aleviate the woes we have, because illegal immigration is a side issue in comparison to trade treaties and outsourcing of jobs in order to continue being competitive in the world markets - and this is the issues that are not given the attention that it deserves as a real problem. Illegal immigration frankly speaking - we have always had it, and will continue to have it - some of it to our benefit per say - but how much and how quick is the problem we're being swollen with - and that has a lot to do with the world politics being played out with globalization - and in that we need to get smart and real quick.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Kemosave » October 20th, 2004, 10:25 am

Well.. getting away from the subject for a minute, allow me to give a local example. Numerous software engineers and tech support folks in SoCal are finding their jobs have been outsourced to India. And why not when a company that typically pays a senior software engineer $15k a month finds they can get the same senior software engineer who is nicer for $800 a month.

The sad part is the Cal State system just keeps grinding out the software engineers oblivious to the reality. They haven't even changed their cirriculum except to add one new major (ie computer technology management). I mean talk about setting up the next generation for failure.

Innovation is always the key to America's economic success. We innovate and the rest imitate. But if you aren't innovating anything anymore then?

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 20th, 2004, 11:59 am

True, we are getting out of topic, hate to say it but without Panico this thread is bored as hell. I guess is all good - but I can do without the hate.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 27th, 2004, 9:49 am

YOU ARE WELCOMED ANYTIME

In any single day, more than 4,000 illegals will walk across the world's busiest gateway, the 375-mile border of Sonora, Mexico and Arizona, U.S.A.
Having eluded La Migra out in the desert crossing, the next leg of their journey takes them into big cities and metropolitan areas, as well as to small towns and rural areas stretching from California to North Carolina.
The number of illegals flooding into the U.S. this year is estimated to total 3 million, far outnumbering at least 3 to 1 those that are allowed entry lawfully. It is estimated that 15 million illegals live amongst us.
While the vast majorities are from neighboring Mexico, followed by Latin Americans from countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Brazil, there is a drastic increased number that come from countries whose populations are hostile to the United States, these come from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, China, Russia, and Eastern European countries.

Who's to blame for all the intruders?

Surely those masses of people cross the desert on their own two feet, but the problem is one of the U.S.'s own making. The government doesn't want to fix it, and politicians, as usual are dodging the issue, even though public-opinion polls show that Americans overwhelmingly favor a crackdown on illegal immigration.
But for sure, many Americans benefit from the flood of illegals because the supply of cheap labor helps keep down the cost of many goods and services, from chicken parts to lawn care. Many big companies, which have an even clearer stake in cheap labor, aggressively fend off the enforcement of immigration laws which would shut the door on them and their supply of illegal workers.
Washington has failed to control the border and has failed to enforce the law, the result of this has a painful impact for the most part on workers at the bottom of the ladder, but increasingly in larger numbers it is affecting those farther up the income scale. The system holds down the pay of American workers and rewards the businesses that hire illegals. It breeds anger and resentment among citizens who can't understand why illegals often receive government assistance of some sort and create costly burdens on their communities. Moreover the system encourages illegal immigration and makes a mockery of encouraging legal immigration.

After the 9/11 terrorist attack on our nation, illegal immigration slowed for a couple of years, but then the numbers surged back up. The chronic reason being the Mexican Government whom continues failing to provide its people the protection from national and international industrial barons whom will not provide the workers with even a decent living wage.
But there is another more immediate reason for the drastic surge in numbers crossing the border.
In many of those speeches from Pres. Bush concerning immigration policy, he has proposed "a new temporary-worker program that will match willing foreign workers with willing American employers when no Americans can be found to fill the jobs". Under this program 3-year renewable visas would be issued to millions of undocumented people already employed here, but in places like Mexico and across the globe, those speeches made by the President are widely interpreted as amnesty and permanent resident legal status, hence the wave of undocumented people crossing the desert and risking their lives.

Given that the illegal immigration issue bridges the presidential campaign-the economy and national security-one would think that a call for change would come from those running for office. Yet that is not the case, Bush has reaffirmed his stance on providing worker's permits for
undocumented people who find jobs or already have a job, and Kerry has promised legislation that would lead to permanent residence for many undocumented workers, neither candidate has made any calls for imposing the force of the law on those who encourage illegal immigration such as the big corporate employers.

Mexican President Vicente Fox after having unsuccessfully called for a fully open border within a decade, pushed his support for dual citizenship and the Matricula Consular, with back up and support from big businesses like Banks and Realtors as well as Insurance kings. This Matricula Consular issued by Mexican Consulates serves as a form of identification, with which you can open a bank account, which then helps them to buy homes as well as needed insurance, giving these undocumented residents a semi-insured stay here in the U.S.
The opening up of bank accounts also facilitates the money illegals can send back home to their families, to the tune of some $13 billion a year, which helps keep more people from coming, but at the same time keeps many here and brings more in the hope on being able to do the same to support their families.

This current quasi-non-enforcement system has fostered a culture of commuters who come and go with some hardship but that is just about all, with no fear of any other punishment.
Thousands are caught crossing the border multiple times, under the law they could be imprisoned on the 2nd offense, but most are not, and most never will, because if they did, it would overwhelm the immigration system and it would collapse by the sheer force of numbers.
But don't blame the Border Patrol, they track down and apprehend undocumented people as their duties require of them, but politicians and legistlature judges let them off easy with a free trip back to their respective countries. Border Patrol finds itself working within a hypocritical political bureaucracy.

At the highest levels of U.S. and Mexican governments, this situation has been orchestrated as beneficial to both nations: Mexico sends its poor north and the U.S. arrests only enough to create the illusion that it is enforcing the laws of the land, while allowing through the numbers necessary by the economic big interests sectors.

….to be continued.

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Re: WHAT IF YOU WERE THE ILLEGAL ?

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 28th, 2004, 7:08 pm

The popular belief is that illegals are crossing the border and then search for work, but in fact many already have their jobs lines up before they leave their home countries, because agricultural farmers, ranchers and corporate managers go so far as to place orders with smugglers for specific numbers of able bodies to be delivered. For corporate America, employing illegals at mediocre wages is great for profits and for stockholders. That is why the payrolls of so many businesses-meat packers, poultry processors, landscape firms, construction companies, office-cleaning firms and corner convenience stores, among others- are filled with undocumented workers.

Companies are rarely, if ever, punished for it. In 2002 the former INS service issued orders levying fines on only 13 employers for hiring illegals, a minuscule number of the thousands of other companies committing the same practice. This nonenforcement of the established immigration laws has the equivalent effect of hanging out a "help wanted" sign. They're sending the message to people, 'If you can make the trek and make it across the border, we have a job for you'.

For nearly 19 years since the Congress passed the Immigration Reform Act of 1986, it has been a crime to hire undocumented workers, and employers could be fined $10,000 for each violation, and jail time for repeat offender employers, but companies fear little, for neither Congress nor subsequent Presidents were eager to enforce the law.
This IRA law was to have established a telephone-verification system for employers to tap into and verify a legal status of any applicant before given employment, but to this day-18 years after, that system has not yet been implemented

Congress shows no interest in cracking down on employers as shown when INS attempted in 1998 under Operation Vanguard in the state of Nebraska. Rather than raiding individual plants as was the customary, the INS subpoenaed the employment records of some 40 packing and processing houses, finding some 4,700 discrepancies out of 24,000 hiring's. Plans were in the making for operations in other states, but then came the outcry from Nebraska's meat-packers, farmers, local politicians, community organizations and the state's congressional delegation, which forced the INS to back off.

Not surprisingly, employer sanctions has all but disappeared, and investigations that target employers of undocumented workers has dropped 70% since 1992, arrests have dropped to an all time low to only 451 in 2002, and the most dramatic decline: fines for those employer violators plunged 99% between 1992 and 2002.

…..to be continued

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