restitution,reporations,and apologies
restitution,reporations,and apologies
slavery is over, but alot of people are still hurt, and angry about it.should blacks get reporations,restitution,and apologies from whites? should blacks still be angry? who should restitution go to? where is our 40 acres and a mule?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I'm studying Civil Rights-History A level, at college. I've studied a year, so far, and i'm glad I did. It opened up a lot of things which I wasn't aware of before.
Growing up, everyone is surrounded by racism, to an extent. I understand problems faced by black people,studying Civil rights helped me to understand more.
We all have to move on....apoligies aren't enough, saying sorry won't change anything. It's just the uneducated, uncultured whites that are racist, the way they've been brought up. I'd be looking more to change this....
I'd find it hard to understand if there was one black person out there that wasn't bitter, my whole family is mixed race, brothers, sisters, so I feel, even I am, they're a part of me too........
Growing up, everyone is surrounded by racism, to an extent. I understand problems faced by black people,studying Civil rights helped me to understand more.
We all have to move on....apoligies aren't enough, saying sorry won't change anything. It's just the uneducated, uncultured whites that are racist, the way they've been brought up. I'd be looking more to change this....
I'd find it hard to understand if there was one black person out there that wasn't bitter, my whole family is mixed race, brothers, sisters, so I feel, even I am, they're a part of me too........
Last edited by Michelle on August 27th, 2004, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I am always amazed at the ability humans have to hold on to a wrong. It's part of the "natural man's" pscyhological makeup. I've found in my own life that when I see no positive value to a wrong done me anymore I've had to purposely make a choice to let go and continue to push it away from me until it finally has no power over me anymore. Anyways, I wanted to repost this here since I think it addresses an aspect of the current situation:
There's a double standard allright. But it's cultural (in the minds of people that live in society) rather than based in the law anymore. You can't legislate what someone can think and believe (although many Governments have tried to this throughout history unsuccessfully).
Now there ARE exceptions, but as a rule (ie rule=majority of cases) if a young black man and a young white man with the same education go to a typical (check racial breakdown statistics in private sector organizations) company and apply for the same technical position that carries with it a large measure of responsibility (and therefore risk to the company and the manager doing the hiring if something goes wrong) most of the time the young white man will be given the opportunity.
This is because the existing white management feels comfortable with the young white man and believes he does not pose as great a risk to the white manager's own position but instead stands a better chance of "getting onboard" and helping to build up the white management's own career. Next, they have a lot in common. They speak the same language (proper English), follow the same moors regarding dress code, hairstyle, belief system and understand each other better. Additionally, there may be some carried over generational and racial biases that were handed down to the white manager which influence his decision. The manager may, or may not, even be aware of it.
Now add to that a popular culture and seriously dysfunctional family situation in the ghetto all influencing young Black youth to do exactly the opposite of what they should be doing to prepare themselves for those positions of responsibility and technical expertise and on top of that add the fact there is not much, except the police, to stop them from following what all young man struggle with (ie the "flesh" which are the natural desires of young men to rebel and satisfy their lusts) and you'd have to have a freaking Angel of a young man that could walk out of that unscathed with the communication skills, look, and education to override the natural selection hiring process. Now I think the young Black men know this and are angry about it and end up further isolating themselves through their own anger/actions.
I have met some really good parents that were committed to keeping their children on course that did not see their children go through this but they are not the rule in the urban areas I am talking about based on what I personally understand through my life observations.
Like the homie in one of Mr. Alonso's original series tapes being interviewed said "What if I'm not strong enough out here to do the right thing all by myself."
The sad thing is that those who finally do come around (successfully completing the programs or just making the change along the way) are able to partner with organizations which also include white people (getting and receiving knowledge same as the rest), afterwards, and get to a whole other level. The reason why it is sad is because this is USUALLY AFTER THE FACT. It's like spending a fortune to repair a man who has jumped from a cliff rather than gating the cliff off and educating them not to jump off it! Now if they run around and jump the fence and jump off anyhow then you still need a first aid station at the bottom but you get my drift.
Now understand ALL of this is just my opinion based on experience so you draw your own conclusions from yours. I'm not telling anyone what to believe or do for sure. I'm just sharing my observations and opinions.
So in that spirit let me go further and say that the many cloisters of wealthy (though they are the first to assure you they aren't.. usually, in my opinion, because they have all their money tied up in real estate so don't necessarily have a hoard of money left over to spend) suburban white people never see this double standard. Now this will probably pis_s off the racist hate whitey types but, honestly, many many of them are good people who consider themselves moral people and give to charity regularly, etc.. Many of them hold important positions that keep this country strong financially and in other ways around the world. But what they see on the nightly news or read in their daily newspaper when they get home from work is basically a "war" tally of crime for the day in their city. So they then hire a lot of police officers and law enforcement (who pretty much carry on their own double standard on the street) to protect themselves. Again there are many exceptions and all of this is strictly my own opinion based on my life experiences and observations from living in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas for many years.
There's a double standard allright. But it's cultural (in the minds of people that live in society) rather than based in the law anymore. You can't legislate what someone can think and believe (although many Governments have tried to this throughout history unsuccessfully).
Now there ARE exceptions, but as a rule (ie rule=majority of cases) if a young black man and a young white man with the same education go to a typical (check racial breakdown statistics in private sector organizations) company and apply for the same technical position that carries with it a large measure of responsibility (and therefore risk to the company and the manager doing the hiring if something goes wrong) most of the time the young white man will be given the opportunity.
This is because the existing white management feels comfortable with the young white man and believes he does not pose as great a risk to the white manager's own position but instead stands a better chance of "getting onboard" and helping to build up the white management's own career. Next, they have a lot in common. They speak the same language (proper English), follow the same moors regarding dress code, hairstyle, belief system and understand each other better. Additionally, there may be some carried over generational and racial biases that were handed down to the white manager which influence his decision. The manager may, or may not, even be aware of it.
Now add to that a popular culture and seriously dysfunctional family situation in the ghetto all influencing young Black youth to do exactly the opposite of what they should be doing to prepare themselves for those positions of responsibility and technical expertise and on top of that add the fact there is not much, except the police, to stop them from following what all young man struggle with (ie the "flesh" which are the natural desires of young men to rebel and satisfy their lusts) and you'd have to have a freaking Angel of a young man that could walk out of that unscathed with the communication skills, look, and education to override the natural selection hiring process. Now I think the young Black men know this and are angry about it and end up further isolating themselves through their own anger/actions.
I have met some really good parents that were committed to keeping their children on course that did not see their children go through this but they are not the rule in the urban areas I am talking about based on what I personally understand through my life observations.
Like the homie in one of Mr. Alonso's original series tapes being interviewed said "What if I'm not strong enough out here to do the right thing all by myself."
The sad thing is that those who finally do come around (successfully completing the programs or just making the change along the way) are able to partner with organizations which also include white people (getting and receiving knowledge same as the rest), afterwards, and get to a whole other level. The reason why it is sad is because this is USUALLY AFTER THE FACT. It's like spending a fortune to repair a man who has jumped from a cliff rather than gating the cliff off and educating them not to jump off it! Now if they run around and jump the fence and jump off anyhow then you still need a first aid station at the bottom but you get my drift.
Now understand ALL of this is just my opinion based on experience so you draw your own conclusions from yours. I'm not telling anyone what to believe or do for sure. I'm just sharing my observations and opinions.
So in that spirit let me go further and say that the many cloisters of wealthy (though they are the first to assure you they aren't.. usually, in my opinion, because they have all their money tied up in real estate so don't necessarily have a hoard of money left over to spend) suburban white people never see this double standard. Now this will probably pis_s off the racist hate whitey types but, honestly, many many of them are good people who consider themselves moral people and give to charity regularly, etc.. Many of them hold important positions that keep this country strong financially and in other ways around the world. But what they see on the nightly news or read in their daily newspaper when they get home from work is basically a "war" tally of crime for the day in their city. So they then hire a lot of police officers and law enforcement (who pretty much carry on their own double standard on the street) to protect themselves. Again there are many exceptions and all of this is strictly my own opinion based on my life experiences and observations from living in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas for many years.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I LOVE THAT YOU TWO GAVE YOUR OPINIONS, AND COMMENTS.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I am for reparations delivered through community building, free education, and counseling in Black areas. An apology is long overdue as well.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I think it's one thing to offer reporations to someone who was actually directly involved in the attrocities that are being made up for. Like the Japanese americans that were held in camps by the US, and the Jews that were held by the Nazi's. But I think that once all of the people that were direct victims are no longer around, you have to just let it go. If we are to start making reporations to seople who are 2, 3, 4, 5 or more generations removed, where will it end? In history, there aren't many races, or cultures that have not been enslaved, or "ethnically clensed" by another. The majority of white people, no matter what country they are from will have ancestors that were slaves. The romans, greeks, huns, goths, gauls, normans, etc. all enslaved thousands and million s of people. If you were to pay someone money because one of their relatives was a slave 150 years ago, why not give some european money because they were slaves of the Roman Empire? Or maybe any white people that have ancestors that were killed or had their familes killed by the english in the Revolutionary war should get some money? It will never end. Every type of people has been a victim of another at some time in history, and it would not be fair to set a # on it like if it was within 150 years you can sue, but 165 years is not OK. Or 200 years, and so on. If YOU weren't the person that actually had this done to you, I don't think you should get anything, it's just not possible to make reporations to everyone on the planet.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Panik,
Note that I said "community building, free education, and counseling in Black areas." You can extend that to all poverty stricken areas, in my opinion. We should have been doing that all along.
Does anyone remember if Lyndon Johnson's administration offered an apology. I seem to remember that he did?
Note that I said "community building, free education, and counseling in Black areas." You can extend that to all poverty stricken areas, in my opinion. We should have been doing that all along.
Does anyone remember if Lyndon Johnson's administration offered an apology. I seem to remember that he did?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
No use to holding on to the hurt it wont get you any where might as well move on. Apologies wont do it either its just like I go up and kill your moma for no reason and then say I'm sorry.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I WILL NEVER FORGET WHAT WENT ON AND IS STILL GOING ON. BUT I ALSO HAVE LEARNED TO FORGIVE.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Oh, I was reading something on this recently, and found out something that I never heard mentioned. Everyone alsways seems to single out the americans as the big bad slave traders/owners. But did you know that the U.S. never even was responsible for even 10% of the slaves that were sent to the "americas"? there were only ever about 500,000 slaves delivered to the U.S., but there were 6 million delivered to Brazil alone! Not to mention that very few of the actuall slave traders were americans, and the majority of the slaves were sold to the spanish and portugese by other africans. So my question is, why not go after potugal, spain and brazil who were by far much worse offenders than the U.S.? I think it's becasue everyone knows that the U.S. has the deep pockets. If reparations were really meant to right wrongs of the past, it should have nothing to do with who has the most money now. The brazillians, the other south american countries, and the europeans should be "punished" before the U.S. should because they were guilty of much more serious violations. And you should also add in the decendants of the africans kings chiefs that sold the slaves in the first place. And on top of that, what about the freed slaves of Liberia? These were slaves that were freed by the U.S., and then we basically went over to africa and conquered them some territory and gave it to them so they could be free again in their native land. And what did they do, they turned around and enslaved the local africans and ended up treating their slaves worse than the americans. Like I said originally, this stuff is best left alone because nobody is innocent, and you cannot punish the whole world.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Hope I'm not offending anyone but Panik has brought a truth. Arab proselytizers of Islam were unconcerned about the welfare of Black Africans when they ventured to hunt them and sell them into slavery centuries ago. History shows us that Islamic countries were involved with slavery far more fervently than their western counterparts (you could make the argument that modern Christian western civilization's expanding influence may have ended the problem for the most part).
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I don't know about the christianity thing though Wcrockets. Christianity helped futher the belief that africans were less than human, the same way that it did for the native americans. By looking at them as "savages" becasue they believed in multiple gods, it made it easier to mistreat them. And many more africans suffered in the process of "converting" them to christianity. Which basically consisted of torture and abuse until they gave in and stopped worshiping the gods that had served them for thousands of years.
-
Common Sense
- Heavy Weight
- Posts: 2631
- Joined: January 13th, 2004, 3:54 pm
- Location: In your MIND and in your HEART.
controversial topic
One could argue:
Slavery could have been the best thing to happen to the African Americans?
Now, before you Lose it think about it.
Slavery could have been the best thing to happen to the African Americans?
Now, before you Lose it think about it.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Then maybe the africans that are still in africa could sue the europeans for leaving them behind.
-
Common Sense
- Heavy Weight
- Posts: 2631
- Joined: January 13th, 2004, 3:54 pm
- Location: In your MIND and in your HEART.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
LOL.......I have never heard a statement like that before. That was truly original.....LOL.
Africans are trying like hell.....to get over here.
Africans are trying like hell.....to get over here.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
As in the Catholic Church for example. Of course. However true Christians, carrying the fruits of the spirit with them which are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, charity, faith, meekness, temperance were persecuted right along with those same people and shared their sufferings. Do you know that there is a distinction between the two? Also, anomolies exist such as Mother Teresa for example. Just as an introduction (not a perfect one but a good one), check out Fox's Book of Martyrs.Panik wrote:I don't know about the christianity thing though Wcrockets. Christianity helped futher the belief that africans were less than human, the same way that it did for the native americans. By looking at them as "savages" becasue they believed in multiple gods, it made it easier to mistreat them. And many more africans suffered in the process of "converting" them to christianity. Which basically consisted of torture and abuse until they gave in and stopped worshiping the gods that had served them for thousands of years.
And instead of Greek Mythology check out Augustine Through The Ages: An Encyclopedia. Much more relevant. Peace.
-
Anonymous20
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
One could argue:
Slavery could have been the best thing to happen to the African Americans?
Now, before you Lose it think about it.
Naw bruh, I don't agree with you at all. If the french and portugeuse didn't invade Africa and use up all of its natural resources, and then just up and abandon Africa then it wouldn't be in the shambles it is today. Why do you think the US is still in Iraq a country can't come invade and take over another another country in then just leave. It causes a large vaccuum with no centralized leadership and leads to civil war for power between the remaining civilians. How quickly we forget the first industrialized culture was the egyptians then came the romans and greeks.
ps: What about the somalian civil war in 1993 who do you think supplied all them automatic weapons. Russia supplied the rebels and the US supplied the somalian gvt. at the time do you remember? Do you also remember the US abandoned Somalia when the somalians dragged like five army soldiers through the city?
Slavery could have been the best thing to happen to the African Americans?
Now, before you Lose it think about it.
Naw bruh, I don't agree with you at all. If the french and portugeuse didn't invade Africa and use up all of its natural resources, and then just up and abandon Africa then it wouldn't be in the shambles it is today. Why do you think the US is still in Iraq a country can't come invade and take over another another country in then just leave. It causes a large vaccuum with no centralized leadership and leads to civil war for power between the remaining civilians. How quickly we forget the first industrialized culture was the egyptians then came the romans and greeks.
ps: What about the somalian civil war in 1993 who do you think supplied all them automatic weapons. Russia supplied the rebels and the US supplied the somalian gvt. at the time do you remember? Do you also remember the US abandoned Somalia when the somalians dragged like five army soldiers through the city?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
1st wcrockets. christians and catholics are somewhat different, but in this case the only difference is that the catholics were the one's that had the power when the indians and africans were exploited. The christians (non-catholics) didn't do much better themselves in india, or south africa for that matter. As far as I'm concerned, religion (not just christian, or catholic) has done more harm to the world than good over the course of history. You do not get points for good intentions if the results don't match. You can look at how the christians today are causing deaths of africans in the form of the religious right getting G.W. Bush to pull all funding from any health programs that we have in the 3rd world if they either perform abortions, or provide condoms and sex education. Because of this, thousands and millions of unwanted children are brought into the 3rd world by parents who will never care for them either becasue they can't or becasue they don't want to. And AIDS ravages these areas for lack of knowledge of where it comes from, and if they do happen to know, they can't get condoms. Believe me, I have nothing personal against any mans religion, if you need it and it helps you, then more power to you, but the constant need for people to push their religious beliefs and "moral" judgements onto others has never done anything but hurt people.
As for ghost, almost every country or people in the worldd has been conquered and invaded. Except for the relatively "new" countries of North and South America. Every country in europe was a victim of slavery and genocide at one time or another. England is one of the most powerful empires ever, and they were enslaved and slaughtered by the romans, and the vikings. Spain and part of italy were not only invaded, enslaved, slaughtered, but it was done by blacks from africa, the Moors. And Egypt had already fallen from it heights of power long before the greeks or romans ever existed, they were just the nail in the coffin. The pyramids were already old and weathered long before they got into any conflict with europeans.
Read up friends, I always love a good argument.
As for ghost, almost every country or people in the worldd has been conquered and invaded. Except for the relatively "new" countries of North and South America. Every country in europe was a victim of slavery and genocide at one time or another. England is one of the most powerful empires ever, and they were enslaved and slaughtered by the romans, and the vikings. Spain and part of italy were not only invaded, enslaved, slaughtered, but it was done by blacks from africa, the Moors. And Egypt had already fallen from it heights of power long before the greeks or romans ever existed, they were just the nail in the coffin. The pyramids were already old and weathered long before they got into any conflict with europeans.
Read up friends, I always love a good argument.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
oh, and as for somalia, yeah, that was our bad. I think we should have stayed there and kicked the shi- out of them, but at the time, the right wing was trying to impeach Bill Clinton who thought that it was justified for us to send troops in. And the republicans basically let it be known that if he lost any more american soldiers in Somalia then he had no chance of staying in office. And FYI ghost, that was not a fight between govt and rebels. The govt of somalia no longer existed for any real purpose. The capital was controlled by common street gangs. The biggest of these was using food as their weapon. Every time we send food to the people there, the biggest gang would either steal the food or even destroy the food to make sure that their enemies had nothing to eat. There was technically a govt in place, but they had no army, and they had controll of nothing. somalia was just one huge gang war and they had guns from everyone, including us and the russians. But what does this matter? In zaire and sudan, etc, they don't hardly use guns for their worst massacres. They go into villages with machetes and chop women and children to peices without firing a shot. Guns, spears, machetes, whats the difference?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Hey Panik. I'm researching your posts. Lot of info there and I will need some time to give a concise reply. Until then.. Have a great day. Peace.
-
Common Sense
- Heavy Weight
- Posts: 2631
- Joined: January 13th, 2004, 3:54 pm
- Location: In your MIND and in your HEART.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Ghost:
If there never was slavery in the U.S., the majority of african americans would not exist.
If there never was slavery in the U.S., the majority of african americans would not exist.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Hi Panik,
Hope you don't mind me taking awhile to get back to you but I wanted to think about your post before I replied.
My Christian brothers at Victory are 95% non-whites who are grateful for the knowledge of Creator God as described in the Bible. Their previous belief systems did not serve them but rather kept them in bondage and ignorance. For example no matter how hard they practiced their religions, or how much "holy" water they sprinkled on themselves, they were unable to free themselves from the madness. Every one of them has experienced supernatural deliverance and redemption from God directly which is something you cannot experience as an aethist.
They are almost all ex gangbangers and if they vote at all, they vote Democrat. They do not force their beliefs on anyone and respect everyone's right to choose. We do not fit the profile you describe.
Now I have read secular comparative religion books written by unbelievers that make many sweeping generalizations against Christians. These books and the people who take them at face value without digging deeper into what a Christian really is really about make the mistake of equating historical/political state controlled organized religion (or organized religion) with authentic Christianity. Truth is that throughout history the real Christian Church has been persecuted by the organizations those comparitive religion books call the Church.
So first, you need to learn what a Chrisitan really is and that means you will need to cross over and study some real material about Christianity written by authentic Christians and not just safely rehash what comparitive religious secular books written by those who are not Christian have to say about Christianity. You could start with those books I recommended. Peace.
Hope you don't mind me taking awhile to get back to you but I wanted to think about your post before I replied.
My Christian brothers at Victory are 95% non-whites who are grateful for the knowledge of Creator God as described in the Bible. Their previous belief systems did not serve them but rather kept them in bondage and ignorance. For example no matter how hard they practiced their religions, or how much "holy" water they sprinkled on themselves, they were unable to free themselves from the madness. Every one of them has experienced supernatural deliverance and redemption from God directly which is something you cannot experience as an aethist.
They are almost all ex gangbangers and if they vote at all, they vote Democrat. They do not force their beliefs on anyone and respect everyone's right to choose. We do not fit the profile you describe.
Now I have read secular comparative religion books written by unbelievers that make many sweeping generalizations against Christians. These books and the people who take them at face value without digging deeper into what a Christian really is really about make the mistake of equating historical/political state controlled organized religion (or organized religion) with authentic Christianity. Truth is that throughout history the real Christian Church has been persecuted by the organizations those comparitive religion books call the Church.
So first, you need to learn what a Chrisitan really is and that means you will need to cross over and study some real material about Christianity written by authentic Christians and not just safely rehash what comparitive religious secular books written by those who are not Christian have to say about Christianity. You could start with those books I recommended. Peace.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Rockets, No disrespect, but I don't think that your victory outreach homies are in any position to speak on being grateful for their "imposed" religion. Their ancestors were served well with their beliefs before christianity ever came to the americas. And I don't think that the "native americans" of that time were "grateful" for being tortured and forced to belive in a god that they did not want to or need to believe in. If it weren't for gunpowder and smallpox, they would still be worshiping nature, and whatever various beliefs their particular peoples believed in. I think it's arrogant to think that christianity was some kind of gift. If they chose to worship their own gods they were killed, tortured, and punished.
Also, see how the "christians" are doing the same thing in Africa today. Those missionaries and programs to "save the children" and feed people are based on the people learning and folowing christianity. These missionaries will move in and will ONLY feed people and their families if they accept Christ. If they do not, they are not fed or taught anything or givin medical attention. All of these things are only given to the people who will convert. This could not possibly be what Jesus had in mind. Believe in me or starve to death? I woulnd want nothing to do with that type of religion.
Also, you didn't address the harm that followers of chritianity have caused. In my book, there are good christiians and bad just like any other category of people. There are just as many bad christians as bad muslims and the same for good. I think that before these "good" christians go out and try to convert others, maybe they should clean house and concentrate their effort on stopping the "bad" christinas from hurting people. They may not blow themselves up like some muslim suicide bombers, but they instead have enough power to change governemnt policy which ends up killing many more people in the long run and causes much more suffering. So who is really the bad guy?
Also, see how the "christians" are doing the same thing in Africa today. Those missionaries and programs to "save the children" and feed people are based on the people learning and folowing christianity. These missionaries will move in and will ONLY feed people and their families if they accept Christ. If they do not, they are not fed or taught anything or givin medical attention. All of these things are only given to the people who will convert. This could not possibly be what Jesus had in mind. Believe in me or starve to death? I woulnd want nothing to do with that type of religion.
Also, you didn't address the harm that followers of chritianity have caused. In my book, there are good christiians and bad just like any other category of people. There are just as many bad christians as bad muslims and the same for good. I think that before these "good" christians go out and try to convert others, maybe they should clean house and concentrate their effort on stopping the "bad" christinas from hurting people. They may not blow themselves up like some muslim suicide bombers, but they instead have enough power to change governemnt policy which ends up killing many more people in the long run and causes much more suffering. So who is really the bad guy?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
also, I have read the bible a few times, and I've read numerous cbhristian books as well. I have quite a few members of my family that are born agains fro the calvary chapel and they constantly try to change my mind. I happily read them and disect them and truthfully, I don't see anything that would cause me to think that Christianity is any more believable or respectable than any other religion. Except for maybe scientology. other than that I think all religions are pretty much equal. They all basically have some good advice on how to be a good person. They all have essentially the same meaning. THey try to make people live a moral life. I myself don't need a book to tell me what is right and wrong, and I have my own morals without being told. I don't think basing my life on any of these books would make me any better or worse of a person. It should all be common sense. I do understand that some people are incapable of doing this on their own, and I think that is what religion is for, it is just a crutch for those people.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Panik, no disrespect but there was no imposition of any kind. The belief system was freely chosen and they benefited greatly. If you would like to talk to some of them about this I can arrange it. Just PM me your phone number and I will set it up. You will find that what this is simply not true. Regarding the gods carved of stone and wood, they are not real. Change really is inevitable and those cultures would have changed if the evil Conquistadors acting in God's name only but really filled with greed and lust in the name of their state had not arrived in any event. It's a tragedy though the evil Conquistadors were the ones that changed it. I agree with you there. Check the relationship between Christ and the Jewish religious leaders to get a basic idea of the difference between a state run organized religion acting only in God's name and the real authentic thing.
I disagree with your perspective of all religions being equal and hope you are kidding about that. Unless you really don't understand Mormonism, for example in comparison to real science's relationship to Christianity. Please do read Moreland's book. I met him and he is a brilliant authentic scholar not a guy that found a couple of "peep stones" in a cave.. lol. How you could even think those two are equal is beyond me.
As for the morals of an aethiest, what objective good are they ultimately in an eternal sense? No ultimate right and wrong exist in that belief system and therefore Hitler can be considered "good" can he not?
And Christianity is a relationship between God and man, a way of living, not a crutch although some people you know may use it as such.
The World Vision child and compound in Africa I support explain that they have limited resources and since they are Christians they built a Christian center and admitted those who wished to participate in the program which is a whole person Christian centered approach. It's not a secular education system and feeding center and not intended to be. It sounds to me like you are admitting that the "gods that serve them so well" can't really take care of them and are mad because the loving Christian people saving their money and opening centers overseas are. Now if the aethists are so concerned about feeding the poor and rendering medical aid then they can raise their own private funds and start aeithist secular education and feeding programs using something other than taxpayer money. There is certainly enough need to go around. But most aethists I've met, however, don't spend their private money to relieve other people's suffering in distant countries on a mass scale as Christians do but they do critisize extensively others who do so in the name of God which I personally view as a cheap out.
I'm sorry I think I missed something. Did you say you wrote a book? I would love to read it. Where can I get it from?
Ok lastly, Jesus said many false prophets and evil workers would come but that you would know them by their fruit. A good tree does not produce bad fruit and visa versa. Also a "good" person can believe a piece of wood will save them but it won't. Christianity, on the other hand, is a fact based belief system even though it requires faith in God to enter into it. Peace.
I disagree with your perspective of all religions being equal and hope you are kidding about that. Unless you really don't understand Mormonism, for example in comparison to real science's relationship to Christianity. Please do read Moreland's book. I met him and he is a brilliant authentic scholar not a guy that found a couple of "peep stones" in a cave.. lol. How you could even think those two are equal is beyond me.
As for the morals of an aethiest, what objective good are they ultimately in an eternal sense? No ultimate right and wrong exist in that belief system and therefore Hitler can be considered "good" can he not?
And Christianity is a relationship between God and man, a way of living, not a crutch although some people you know may use it as such.
The World Vision child and compound in Africa I support explain that they have limited resources and since they are Christians they built a Christian center and admitted those who wished to participate in the program which is a whole person Christian centered approach. It's not a secular education system and feeding center and not intended to be. It sounds to me like you are admitting that the "gods that serve them so well" can't really take care of them and are mad because the loving Christian people saving their money and opening centers overseas are. Now if the aethists are so concerned about feeding the poor and rendering medical aid then they can raise their own private funds and start aeithist secular education and feeding programs using something other than taxpayer money. There is certainly enough need to go around. But most aethists I've met, however, don't spend their private money to relieve other people's suffering in distant countries on a mass scale as Christians do but they do critisize extensively others who do so in the name of God which I personally view as a cheap out.
I'm sorry I think I missed something. Did you say you wrote a book? I would love to read it. Where can I get it from?
Ok lastly, Jesus said many false prophets and evil workers would come but that you would know them by their fruit. A good tree does not produce bad fruit and visa versa. Also a "good" person can believe a piece of wood will save them but it won't. Christianity, on the other hand, is a fact based belief system even though it requires faith in God to enter into it. Peace.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
well, I do really believe that all are basically equal. And to me, believing in a "pice of wood or carved stone" is no more ridiculous than believing in a jewish guy that died 2000 years ago, but not being Jewish. Jesus was a jew, and his followers were jews. A "good" follower of jesus should also be a jew, not make up a religion after he dies that he did not support or endorse. And you just proved one of my points about christians. You act like it's a joke about the people dying becasue they don't believe in your god and have nothing to eat. Jesus never would have turned anyone down from what I understand. You were to love everyone, even your enemy. You don't feed some people an not others just becasue they don't believe as you do. That is un-christian of you. And if I were one of those people in africa seeing the christians only feeding people that agreed to join their church, I would want nothing to do with that religion either. That is using food as a weapon just like the somolian warlords, and if anyone that supports such a group goes to heaven, then that isn't a place I would want to go. Treat other how you would want to be treated! How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and you were starving and only the muslims had food. How would you feel if they let you and your family starve to death just becasue you were a christian. This is why I hate religion. You are all f'ing human, what book you believe in shouldn't matter to anyone but God (if there is one). Let him deal with what people believe when it's all over. It's not your place to do his work. Or did God tell you to only help starving chritian kids and the others don't deserve food?
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
But they aren't. The truth is that they are all different belief systems with theology that directly contradicts each other. There really is no getting around this fact.
If you had knowledge of what Jesus and his disciples said, you would know that you don't have to be Jewish to be a follower of Jesus. That is ridiculous from a theological perspective. Romans 11 is one of many places to start learning about this.
Your accusation is totally baseless. The reason I participate in helping others is exactly because I do love them. I don't care about trinkets and brownie points. I do it out of love not because I believe it will get me somewhere although I do acknowledge that good done from love is eventually rewarded in the afterlife. I have reached a point in my life where I enjoy helping other people that are on a positive track and planting good seeds with those who aren't on one. Just on a personal note, the other day I was compelled to go to a recovery program, I didn't know why. But I showed up and sat opposite a guy that had been sober since 1987 and was on the board of that particular program. He shared that though his life had turned completely around many years ago he was in danger of losing a high paying job because a background check revealed he did not have a high school diploma. I was able to show him how to quickly get one through Victory High School and his job and position are going to be saved. That's just one example of how I move through my week freely donating time, money, and following the God in whom you don't believe's leading.
As for World Vision, they are doing a great job with limited resources around the world. Sorry you don't agree. As I stated earlier, you can start an aethist relief program and show us how it is done your way. In the process you can deliver yourself from the condemnations you place on others. That finger you got pointed at me unfairly has four more pointing back right at you. What are you doing about it right now and if anything why?
Peace.
If you had knowledge of what Jesus and his disciples said, you would know that you don't have to be Jewish to be a follower of Jesus. That is ridiculous from a theological perspective. Romans 11 is one of many places to start learning about this.
Your accusation is totally baseless. The reason I participate in helping others is exactly because I do love them. I don't care about trinkets and brownie points. I do it out of love not because I believe it will get me somewhere although I do acknowledge that good done from love is eventually rewarded in the afterlife. I have reached a point in my life where I enjoy helping other people that are on a positive track and planting good seeds with those who aren't on one. Just on a personal note, the other day I was compelled to go to a recovery program, I didn't know why. But I showed up and sat opposite a guy that had been sober since 1987 and was on the board of that particular program. He shared that though his life had turned completely around many years ago he was in danger of losing a high paying job because a background check revealed he did not have a high school diploma. I was able to show him how to quickly get one through Victory High School and his job and position are going to be saved. That's just one example of how I move through my week freely donating time, money, and following the God in whom you don't believe's leading.
As for World Vision, they are doing a great job with limited resources around the world. Sorry you don't agree. As I stated earlier, you can start an aethist relief program and show us how it is done your way. In the process you can deliver yourself from the condemnations you place on others. That finger you got pointed at me unfairly has four more pointing back right at you. What are you doing about it right now and if anything why?
Peace.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Well, with my limited income, I don't have too many options as far as donating $. But, I still think that in your own words you were trying to be sarcastic about the people that weren't getting help from your programs becasue they didn't accept your faith. That shouldn't be what it is about. And as for jesus, you are wrong to an extent. His followers didn't have to be Jews to begin with, but he was trying to convert them to Judaism. This is what got him in trouble with the jews in the first place. Up until then, the jews did not allow outsiders to join or convert, you basically had to be born a jew and jews looked down upon non jews (much like christians look down on non-christians). Jesus understood that to spread the belief of One God, you had to allow outsiders into the fold, so he started to "convert" others into the jewish religion. This upset the establishment and became one of the reasons that he was hated by them.
And as for starting an aethiest relief program, that is not only ridiculous, but also helping to prove my point once again. If the goal is to help people, then the program should not be nased on religion, or lack of religion, it should be based only on helping people. It should not be christian, muslim, or aethiest related. And think about this. How many more people could your program feed with the portion of donated money that they spend to build churches and provide bibles and religious teachings? I think dying people need assistance more than they need to be preached at. Why don't you help them to eat and become self sufficient, and then once they are not threatened with the prospect of starvation you can let them make up their own mind about being a christian. Don't hold food in front of them as an incentive. If the call of Jesus is so strong you shouldn't need to use food as an incentive to pick up a bible. This sounds to me like you are bribing these people into accepting Jesus.
And as for starting an aethiest relief program, that is not only ridiculous, but also helping to prove my point once again. If the goal is to help people, then the program should not be nased on religion, or lack of religion, it should be based only on helping people. It should not be christian, muslim, or aethiest related. And think about this. How many more people could your program feed with the portion of donated money that they spend to build churches and provide bibles and religious teachings? I think dying people need assistance more than they need to be preached at. Why don't you help them to eat and become self sufficient, and then once they are not threatened with the prospect of starvation you can let them make up their own mind about being a christian. Don't hold food in front of them as an incentive. If the call of Jesus is so strong you shouldn't need to use food as an incentive to pick up a bible. This sounds to me like you are bribing these people into accepting Jesus.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Doesn't matter. I'm not rich either. The point is that if you really care about something, you get involved to change it and don't just point the finger at people that are doing something about. And no I wasn't being sarcastic I was just making a point. I assure you I get nothing out of watching anyone suffer.
Jesus got in trouble with the legal authorities of Judism because he claimed to be the son of God and put God's law above their traditions such as healing on the Sabbath. Outsiders could convert to Judism see Matthew 23:15 which states "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Whole Chapter: Matthew 23 In context: Matthew 23:14-16).
God himself began the modern integration of non-jews into Christianity on the day of Pentacost though incidents such as the healing of the woman who grabbed the hem of his garment and prior prophesies http://www.messiahrevealed.org/ pointed to it.
But you excuse yourself from having to take part and keep critisizing. I mean this seriously, who better to concentrate strictly on the material needs of people only than Aethists? Why are they not themselves doing the things they judge others for? I see a real hypocrisy here. But I see no hypocrisy in Christian people sacrificing and risking to create Christian centers that help a great many people all over the world in a way that promotes their belief system.
You are asking Christian people not to be real to themselves to take proven programs which work very well and try to turn them into something which we don't believe in. Namely, caring for only the physical needs of a person and not also the spiritual ones which we think are more important. Caring for a dying person, in my/our view, requires both.
As for your point in turning away people that don't accept Christ from an Africa center, I haven't heard of that in World Vision. They create a center and when it is full still do feeding programs in the community to everyone as resources allow.
I do believe the situation you are saying has happened with some organizations but I haven't personally heard of a specific example of it. Maybe one of those fake televangelist programs or something? Could you give me a specific example so I can check it out? Thank you.
Also note that people aren't perfect. Genuine Christians are not perfect just saved. Trying to hold them to a standard of perfection is ridiculous and not scriptural. And as you judge may you be judged. Peace.
Jesus got in trouble with the legal authorities of Judism because he claimed to be the son of God and put God's law above their traditions such as healing on the Sabbath. Outsiders could convert to Judism see Matthew 23:15 which states "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Whole Chapter: Matthew 23 In context: Matthew 23:14-16).
God himself began the modern integration of non-jews into Christianity on the day of Pentacost though incidents such as the healing of the woman who grabbed the hem of his garment and prior prophesies http://www.messiahrevealed.org/ pointed to it.
But you excuse yourself from having to take part and keep critisizing. I mean this seriously, who better to concentrate strictly on the material needs of people only than Aethists? Why are they not themselves doing the things they judge others for? I see a real hypocrisy here. But I see no hypocrisy in Christian people sacrificing and risking to create Christian centers that help a great many people all over the world in a way that promotes their belief system.
You are asking Christian people not to be real to themselves to take proven programs which work very well and try to turn them into something which we don't believe in. Namely, caring for only the physical needs of a person and not also the spiritual ones which we think are more important. Caring for a dying person, in my/our view, requires both.
As for your point in turning away people that don't accept Christ from an Africa center, I haven't heard of that in World Vision. They create a center and when it is full still do feeding programs in the community to everyone as resources allow.
I do believe the situation you are saying has happened with some organizations but I haven't personally heard of a specific example of it. Maybe one of those fake televangelist programs or something? Could you give me a specific example so I can check it out? Thank you.
Also note that people aren't perfect. Genuine Christians are not perfect just saved. Trying to hold them to a standard of perfection is ridiculous and not scriptural. And as you judge may you be judged. Peace.
Last edited by wcrockets on April 6th, 2004, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
I'll get you the names of some of the programs. I know the ones I have specific knowlegde of are all born again related. My family showed me some info on the, Not only that, but one of them actually saidthat they would only accept $ from a christian, which doesn't make much sense to me. As for helping people, I do plenty, I help my family, friends, and families of friends constantly, but me myself, I'm broke with crippliing probation and restitution to pay, and a mother dying of cancer that I take care of, and a grandmother I also take care of that is dying of kidney failure. So I think I'm pretty much covered on the good deeds. I will also get some other information to quote. I know the wuote, but I need the source that basicaly stated that as far as christian based relief programs go, the absolute best one only actually used 30% of the money collected to help people, the rest went to their own expenses. WIll also get back to you on the bible there, but I'm at work and will get fired if I spend the amount of time reponding that I'd like to . Need to wait until I get home.
Re: restitution,reporations,and apologies
Understood. Take all the time you need. Didn't know you were dealing with all of that either and you have my prayers. Peace.