John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

American organized crime groups included traditional groups such as La Cosa Nostra & the Italian Mafia to modern groups such as Black Mafia Family. Discuss the most organized criminal groups in the United States including gangs in Canada.
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This section discusses organized crime groups in the US and Canadian street gangs.
mayugastank
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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by mayugastank » January 29th, 2010, 2:05 pm

Genovese only has had 3 known rats in its 100 year history-with one rat going back to the 60s(Valachi) so how did, Vincent the chin get convicted? I dont even understand how they could operate an organization dealing with other families when the other families are rat infested. They must have secluded themselves from the 4 other families. In the 4 other families you have bosses who have flipped. What a joke! imagine the soldiers in that family having to take orders from some guy who would eventually flip -they must of felt real disgraced. I bet as soon as a boss or capo flipped -soldiers just lined up to testify themselves.

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by thewestside » January 30th, 2010, 1:51 am

mayugastank wrote:Genovese only has had 3 known rats in its 100 year history-with one rat going back to the 60s(Valachi) so how did, Vincent the chin get convicted? I dont even understand how they could operate an organization dealing with other families when the other families are rat infested. They must have secluded themselves from the 4 other families. In the 4 other families you have bosses who have flipped. What a joke! imagine the soldiers in that family having to take orders from some guy who would eventually flip -they must of felt real disgraced. I bet as soon as a boss or capo flipped -soldiers just lined up to testify themselves.
The Genovese have had 3 made guys flip. The Chin was initially indicted in the Windows Case on the testimony of Genovese turncoat Peter Savino who was an associate. That was probably Chin's one mistake. Letting Savino get to close to him. Savino was one of the key guys in the mob's bid-rigging scheme involving $142 million worth of window replacement contracts. Later on, Gravano testified against the Chin as well and talked about how he had been at two Commission meetings with Chin and how he was not really crazy.

There is sometimes a domino effect. One guy flips and it leads to others flipping. This happened to the Lucchese back in the 1990's and to the Bonannos this last decade. The only official boss in New York who has flipped was Bonanno boss Joe Massino. Though the Luccheses did have two acting bosses flip. And there have been other members of a family's administration to flip.

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by mayugastank » January 30th, 2010, 2:42 am

Still though having a boss flip is totally demoralizing-a guy gets to the top and turns out soft. It would definetly affect the lower tier soldier . Imagine a boss saying I ordered such and such to kill such and such. How wouldnt a guy in that position flip? The bonnannos had a shitload of snitches , the Gamibinos arent that far behind. The genovese probably doest have as many snitches because of a lack of making new members. I read that during the 90s , they had a slot of some 60+ guys that needed to be replaced. Yet the chin refused to make new members. Probably why -they didnt have as much snitches. I just dont know I aint from the east coast so I couldnt tell you how the Italian people are in those areas. But from what I have read -their isnt alot of immigration from italy into the states. Also whats been talked about in books I have read is the lack of italian people willing to live that life. Most italians seemed to have assimiliated. They are part of white americana, the ones I have met out here on the West Coast, are just claimers-they dont know or have any italian frieds because their arent any! Maybe in New York you got your guido kids but not out here in LA or anywhere in the Southwest. I remeber traveling to Canada once and meeting my first real italians. Dark-hairy, big nosed and no english speaking italians of the sicialian variety. I was shocked. They looked exactly like the mexicans who hang out at the home depot!lol, I bet you thats what Facuilina looks like...=>

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by thewestside » January 31st, 2010, 2:14 am

mayugastank wrote:Still though having a boss flip is totally demoralizing-a guy gets to the top and turns out soft. It would definetly affect the lower tier soldier. Imagine a boss saying I ordered such and such to kill such and such. How wouldnt a guy in that position flip? The bonnannos had a shitload of snitches , the Gamibinos arent that far behind.


The point of a crime family is that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts, so to speak. The organization isn't dependent on one person, even the boss. Yes, having the boss or any high level member flip is damaging, especially if they take down others with them, but ultimately the family regroups, somebody else fills the spot, and business goes on. That is why these Mafia families have lasted here in the U.S. for the better part of a century.
The genovese probably doest have as many snitches because of a lack of making new members. I read that during the 90s , they had a slot of some 60+ guys that needed to be replaced. Yet the chin refused to make new members. Probably why -they didnt have as much snitches.


Actually the Genovese family's membership has remained stable at about 200 for the last two decades. They are the largest family over all, with the Gambinos close behind. There are a few reasons why they haven't had many rats. First, they screen their recruits much more strictly than other families. Guys have been made into other families that couldn't get made into the Genovese family. Prospective members have to wait much longer to get made into the family and two members have to vouch for them with their lives. And even after they go through the ceremony, they still have a year's probation before they are formally recognized as members. Second, the Genovese family continues to enforce discipline and secrecy through force. Gigante was known to have said "We don't break (demote) our captains, we kill them." One law enforcement official recently said how if someone in the Genovese family screws up, they are dead before you know it. This was true back when Chin was running things and it continues to be true today.

1998 - Acting Genovese Captain Ralph Coppola disappears after rumors that he was skimming from the mob's shakedown operations at the Javits Center.

2003 - Adolpho "Big Al" Bruno, Captain of the Genovese family's Massachusetts faction, killed for not bringing in enough money and being too high profile.

2005 - Genovese Acting Captain Lawrence "Larry" Ricci killed and found in the trunk of a car in New Jersey. He had disobeyed orders by the family's leaders to take a plead deal in a case involving the family's control of ILA unions on the docks.

2007 - Genovese Soldiers Rudolph "Rudy Cueball" Izzi is killed, reportedly for skimming profits.
I just dont know I aint from the east coast so I couldnt tell you how the Italian people are in those areas. But from what I have read -their isnt alot of immigration from italy into the states. Also whats been talked about in books I have read is the lack of italian people willing to live that life. Most italians seemed to have assimiliated. They are part of white americana, the ones I have met out here on the West Coast, are just claimers-they dont know or have any italian frieds because their arent any! Maybe in New York you got your guido kids but not out here in LA or anywhere in the Southwest. I remeber traveling to Canada once and meeting my first real italians. Dark-hairy, big nosed and no english speaking italians of the sicialian variety. I was shocked. They looked exactly like the mexicans who hang out at the home depot!lol, I bet you thats what Facuilina looks like...=>
Much of that is true. The #1 cause of the mob's decline isn't law enforcement or rats or the Witness Protection Program or rival crime groups. It's general attrition - the assimiliation of the Italians into the American mainstream. This has caused the demise of more mob families than anything else. That's why 85% of the remaining mob membership is in the Northeast, 70% in New York alone, and why you don't have mob families anymore in places like San Francisco, Dallas, or Denver.

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by mayugastank » January 31st, 2010, 3:15 am

So they are still committing murders to benefit their group. I had read that mob murders were the rarity in New York, whereas in the 80s-early 90s....10-15 mob related murders a year was average. It was said the cosa nostras ability to hit snitches, or even enforce discipline was non existant. If they make a dozen or so- members arent they expected to have at least committed a murder in their career? or is that prerequisite gone? The upwards of 60+ slots the genovese needed filled during Gottis heyday was well known. Sammy Gravano gave evidence to Gottis trying to manipulate Vincent Gigante to fill those slots so that the new members would know that it was Gotti who had a hand in having them made. That way -they would feel indebted to Gotti. The genovese supposedly were the most ancient family with most members being senior citizens and hundreds of associates waiting upwards of decades to being made. Guys were getting put onto the Gambinos and Lucchese -because the Genovese werent making members. Most of this I got from reports on the trial and the testimony of Gravano from news reports -books etc. You said the membership of the Genovese stayed consistent-did you not hear the above stated rumors-hearsay I read? Do you have anything to show the contrary? Recently has their been any witness murders committed by the Mafia? What have the genovese been up to? Do we know who their captains are ? Where did you get membership totals? HAve they made any new members in the last decade?

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by Faciulina » January 31st, 2010, 1:28 pm

According to the Justice Department, here's how the families stack up:

Genovese Family - 300 members

Bonanno Family - 200 members

Gambino Family - 200 members

Lucchese Family - 150 members

Colombo Family - 150 members


http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/6487

look at this, i think nobody included the feds can know exactly the number of made members they are just speculations, anyway honestly the genovese's have 50 made members in new jersey only, they have crews in florida, massachusetts and other states, it's logic the family's membership as a whole is over 300 even today

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by thewestside » January 31st, 2010, 9:50 pm

Faciulina wrote:According to the Justice Department, here's how the families stack up:

Genovese Family - 300 members

Bonanno Family - 200 members

Gambino Family - 200 members

Lucchese Family - 150 members

Colombo Family - 150 members


http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/6487

look at this, i think nobody included the feds can know exactly the number of made members they are just speculations, anyway honestly the genovese's have 50 made members in new jersey only, they have crews in florida, massachusetts and other states, it's logic the family's membership as a whole is over 300 even today
I remember that article. And I couldn't help but notice that, even though you are citing this article, you are doing it dishonestly. The figures in the article say "members and associates." But I guess you forgot to include associates, huh? In any event, those are also wrong. If one looks long enough, they can find numbers that say anything. As I've said many times before, the key is to go with the average figure from various official estimates over and extended time period. That gives you the best read. What you are doing is simply cherrypicking whatever biggest number you can find and calling that the definitive figure.

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by thewestside » January 31st, 2010, 10:21 pm

mayugastank wrote:So they are still committing murders to benefit their group. I had read that mob murders were the rarity in New York, whereas in the 80s-early 90s....10-15 mob related murders a year was average. It was said the cosa nostras ability to hit snitches, or even enforce discipline was non existant.
To get a good read into how the mob works today it takes more than reading a book or two, which are often about events years ago, or the latest fluff piece article in the newspaper. The mob uses violence, including murder, but usually as a last resort because violence brings down heat from law enforcement. If somebody needs to be killed, it's usually over a relatively serious matter and they are usually killed quickly and quietly - unless the mob wants the body to be found to send a message. Some guys, like Ralph Coppola in New York or Tony Zizzo in Chicago, simply disappear and are never seen again. Though everyone knows what happened to them. Others, like Larry Ricci, are left to be found later. As for rats, the danger is if the mob believes they are a snitch before they actually flip and come under government protection. That's when the mob will move to take them out before the damage is done. Afterwards though, it's simply not practical to try and track somebody down who is living across the country in the Witness Protection Program. The risks outweigh the rewards.
If they make a dozen or so- members arent they expected to have at least committed a murder in their career? or is that prerequisite gone?


That may have been a prerequisite back in the day. At least to some degree. But you only had to participate in a murder. That could be anything from setting the guy up to disposing of the body. You didn't necessarily have to be the trigger man. Considering how many mob members there were back then, or even today, there just weren't that many murders needing to be committed. Nowadays that's not longer a factor anyway. While the mob certainly still values guys who are "capable," meaning they can handle killing people, if somebody is a good earner, they don't care if they've never seen a gun.
The upwards of 60+ slots the genovese needed filled during Gottis heyday was well known. Sammy Gravano gave evidence to Gottis trying to manipulate Vincent Gigante to fill those slots so that the new members would know that it was Gotti who had a hand in having them made. That way -they would feel indebted to Gotti.


I'm aware of this. But it was supposedly 30 new guys Gotti was trying to get Chin to make, not 60.
The genovese supposedly were the most ancient family with most members being senior citizens and hundreds of associates waiting upwards of decades to being made. Guys were getting put onto the Gambinos and Lucchese -because the Genovese werent making members. Most of this I got from reports on the trial and the testimony of Gravano from news reports -books etc. You said the membership of the Genovese stayed consistent-did you not hear the above stated rumors-hearsay I read? Do you have anything to show the contrary?


If you look at the average age of their members, the Genovese family is certainly the oldest family. Some would think that is a weakness but it's actually a strength. The oldtimers are the most disciplined and still adhere to Omerta more than the younger ones do. And this is also because guys have to wait a lot longer to get made into the Genovese family. There have been times where different families have put a freeze on making new members. Sometimes all of them together, which included a span of decades years ago. But if you look at the average official estimates of the Genovese family's membership, it has remained stable over the past two decades and they are now considered the largest family while the Gambinos were the largest up until the mid-late 1990's.
What have the genovese been up to?


The Genovese family controls the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the New York/New Jersey area. As it always has been since the end of Prohibition, gambling continues to be the #1 money maker for the mob. The biggest is bookmaking or sports betting, for which they use offshore wirerooms in places like Costa Rica. But there are also numbers, video poker machines, and high stakes card games. The Genovese also continue to be involved in labor racketeering in the waterfront, construction, demolition, trucking, waste hauling, and recycling industries. The usual things like extortion, bid-rigging, sweetheart contracts, no show jobs, and union fund embezzlement. They are also involved in drug trafficking but they haven't had to become as deeply involved as the other New York families since they have more diversified operations. And they have been at the forefront in new crimes like stock fraud and health care fraud.
Do we know who their captains are ?


The first guy listed by each number is the official captain of the crew. Any guys listed after him are or were acting captains while he was imprisoned, etc..

Capos:
1. Anthony "Tico" Antico/73 (UI/IP) – Brooklyn
2. John "Johnny Sausages" Barbato/74 – Staten Island and Manhattan
3. Liborio "Barney" Bellomo/52/Ernest Muscarella/64/Arthur "Artie" Nigro/64 (IP/2/28/2011) – Bronx, East Harlem and Manhattan
4. Ludwig "Ninny" Bruschi/73/Anthony “Tony D” Palumbo/59 (UI/IP) - New Jersey
5. Dominick "Quiet Dom" Cirillo/79 – Manhattan
6. Joseph "Joe D" Dente Jr/45 (UI) – Bronx
7. Lawrence "Larry Fab/Little Larry" Dentico/85 - New Jersey and Philly
8. Silvio DeVita/77 - New Jersey
9. Anthony "Tough Tony/Tony Parkside" Federici/67 – Queens
10. Tino "The Greek" Fiumara/67/Michael “Little Mike” Coppola/62 (IP)/Michael “Tona” Borelli/71 – New Jersey
11. Rosario “Ross” Gangi/68/Salvatore "Sammy Meatballs" Aparo/78 – Manhattan, Brooklyn and New Jersey
12. Joseph "The Eagle" Gatto/64 (UI) - New Jersey
13. Matthew "Matty the Horse" Ianniello/88/Ciro Perrone/87 (IP10/14/2011) – Brooklyn, Staten Island, Connecticut and Long Island
14. Frank "Punchy" Illiano/80/Albert "Kid Blast" Gallo/78 – Brooklyn
15. Mario Gigante/84 – Manhattan, Bronx and Westchester
16. Daniel “Danny/The Lion” Leo/67 (UI/IP/10/07/2011) – Bronx and East Harlem
17. Alphonse "Allie Shades" Malangone/71 (IP/4/5/2010)/Alan "Baldie" Longo/58 (IP/11/24/2010) - Manhattan and Brooklyn
18. James "Jimmy from 8th Street" Messera/71 – Manhattan and Brooklyn
19. Pasquale "Patsy" Parello/64/Anthony "Rom" Romanello/72 (UI) - Bronx
20. Angelo "The Horn" Prisco/69 (IP/L)/Joseph "PePe" LaScala/76 - New Jersey
21. Renaldi “Ray” Ruggiero/74 (IP/9/10/2018) – Florida
22. Charles "Chuckie" Tuzzo/74 – Brooklyn
Where did you get membership totals?


Articles, reports, etc.
HAve they made any new members in the last decade?
Yes, they have. But as in the past, we won't know specifics until more information comes out. But, for example, when Danny Leo was identified as the Acting Boss of the Genovese family back in 2006, one captain was overhead on an FBI bug talking about how Leo and some other top guys in the family had presided at a number of recent making ceremonies. The gun and knife on the table, the pricked trigger finger, the burning saint card, etc. are all still used.

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by mayugastank » August 18th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Joey Testa and Anthony Senter got made into the lucchese?where did you get that ? If so you can add Anthony Senter to the updated RAT list...since he will be getting out of prison shortly due to his cooperation in solving several murders during his time on the streets. Cant find teh article now ..but I am sure if you look hard enough " it says Anthony Senter will be released from prison in 2013 do to his cooperation with authorities. After almost 25 years he probably decided the oath wasnt worth the time in the clink

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Re: John Gotti Junior-IMPRESSIVE.

Unread post by thewestside » August 19th, 2010, 12:12 pm

mayugastank wrote:Joey Testa and Anthony Senter got made into the lucchese?where did you get that ? If so you can add Anthony Senter to the updated RAT list...since he will be getting out of prison shortly due to his cooperation in solving several murders during his time on the streets. Cant find teh article now ..but I am sure if you look hard enough " it says Anthony Senter will be released from prison in 2013 do to his cooperation with authorities. After almost 25 years he probably decided the oath wasnt worth the time in the clink
Once again, I really don't know where you get a lot of your information. Both Testa and Senter were made into the Lucchese family after drifting over from the Gambinos. And Senter isn't cooperating.

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