Who Do You Consider A Black Leader Today?

This is the forum for those who believe that there are other options to gangs and violence and hope to see young people make better choices about their future. Where does change begin?

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whoknows
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Unread post by whoknows » April 16th, 2006, 6:42 am

Common Sense wrote:
whoknows wrote: "not all black people live in the hood" what do u mean by that?
Black people are varied economically and socially just as much as the color of skin (dark skin to fair skin), If a leader is going to represent black people, he/she must be capable to cross many lines and boundaries, articulate and intelligently capable to represent all blacks.

A leader must be taken seriously not just by his own people, but by people he/she deals with directly. This is achieved by earned respect. A respected leader get things done for his people.
o.k. agreed...

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Unread post by whoknows » April 16th, 2006, 7:52 am

Common Sense wrote:
whoknows wrote:ain't the hood where people need the most help? it sho ain't rich black suburbia.
Yea, people in the inner cities or the lower socioeconmic class need the most help, but blacks in the surburbs are still black, and eventhough they may have more money, they still face some of the same prejudices. On some levels..all black people are in the same boat. Rich or not.
i agree black suburbia is facing racism but fighting racism seems to be the only thing that tie's the hood and black suburbia together. The hood has alot more issues to face than just racism. the hood has to fight gangs, drugs, unemployment, disease, hunger, people not knowing the law, illiteracy, high drop out rates, single parent homes and kids raising kids.

suburbia has it share but it's on a much lower scale. It seems to me that a lot of orginazations seem to look this over when they say they are standing up for blacks. that's why i made that comment about the coca cola plant. they seem quick to say something about blacks getting called a nigga rather than addressing other issues that seem to be more important. not all oganizations are like this but the majority of them are.

to me it just seems pointless to try and fight racism because if you look at it all it is begging 2 be accepted. i don't understand why you would want 2 be accepted by nazi america because they ain't gone change. no matter how much money you make or how much u change your appearance to try and fit into thier society u still a nigga in they eye's. look at how they denied oprah service, called condeleeza a coon, turned they back on bonds for steroids and made racist comments about mcnabb.

i think that we(blacks) should be addressing all issues that blacks face together as a whole instead of trying to fight it as a divided race.

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Unread post by whoknows » April 16th, 2006, 8:09 am

Common Sense wrote:
I'm not familar with these organizations, but I do know that there are many organizations that are available for poor people. These organizations will give you job training, housing if needed, substance abuse help, and etc. Some of these orginizations can't meet there quota's, because no one is signing up.


i don't know about them not making they quota cause people ain't signing up but i do know that alot of them can't get the proper funding. they be trying to get government funding but get little or know funding so alot of them get shut down just as soon as they start. so then they have to resort to collecting from the hood which is almost impossible because we po folk. how u gone collect from people that need help? which is why i don't understand how some of these rich black orginizations ain't giving the donations they collect to these organizations in the hood that can't get funding.

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Unread post by whoknows » April 16th, 2006, 9:07 am

Common Sense wrote: Opportunity is here in America for those that want it. I'm not trying to sound like a Jr. Republican, but when you travel the world, and you see how people from other countries don't have shit because their family didn't have shit for the last 100 years, don't have a chance in hell to "come up."
That's why people are trying like hell to risk their lives to come to America (despite all of our problems) to get theirs. Americans are so used to having everything laid out and shelved for us, that many of us "will not" work for anything anymore. The foreigner see's the opportunity and say's "As soon as I sneak into the country, I'm all over that."
you right their is opportunities out their for people with squeeky clean records. once you got a felony it's a rap ain't 2 many opportuinities out their for you. which is fucked up because alot of brothers get locked up and wanna change but will never get a chance to.

what do blacks have laid and shelved out for us? u act like people in the hood making less than 18,000.00 dollars a year have it made. shit if u making less than 18,000.00 a year u ain't got it made u in poverty.

i don't know why people always say that poor foreigners come here cause they see opportunity. what opportunity? they get here and make pretty much the same pay we make, less than 18 a year with no benefits. but these foreigners be happy with that because in they own country they was making less than 2 g'z a year. so of course they gone think that americans are spoiled. but these foreigners are smart because they take that 18 and funnel it back 2 they country and flip that biatch.

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Unread post by Common Sense » April 17th, 2006, 8:35 am

whoknows wrote: i agree black suburbia is facing racism but fighting racism seems to be the only thing that tie's the hood and black suburbia together. The hood has alot more issues to face than just racism. the hood has to fight gangs, drugs, unemployment, disease, hunger, people not knowing the law, illiteracy, high drop out rates, single parent homes and kids raising kids.
Agreed. It's an epidemic.
whoknows wrote:suburbia has it share but it's on a much lower scale.
That's right. People tend to own their homes, are in the commuity for longer periods of time, so they tend to take better care of their property and respect each other as neighbors vs. a community with a large percentage of renters. Renters come and go, especially in poorer neighborhoods. Tenants have no investment in the property, and may be at war with his/her neighbor.
whoknows wrote:It seems to me that a lot of orginazations seem to look this over when they say they are standing up for blacks. that's why i made that comment about the coca cola plant. they seem quick to say something about blacks getting called a nigga rather than addressing other issues that seem to be more important. not all oganizations are like this but the majority of them are.
Blacks must first stand up for blacks, if there is ever going to be any real respect. How can one take a nation of people serious, if the group is not serious among themselves. I'm not talking about a few individuals, I'm talking about the masses. Many blacks don't have respect for other blacks, so how can we expect "the establishment to follow suit."
whoknows wrote:to me it just seems pointless to try and fight racism because if you look at it all it is begging 2 be accepted.
Sure it is. One of the biggest examples is black on black racism. Everyday and all day.
whoknows wrote:i don't understand why you would want 2 be accepted by nazi america because they ain't gone change. no matter how much money you make or how much u change your appearance to try and fit into thier society
Nazi America??? If you think this is bad, travel to some parts of Africa.
whoknows wrote:u still a nigga in they eye's. look at how they denied oprah service, called condeleeza a coon, turned they back on bonds for steroids and made racist comments about mcnabb.
What's the difference: Blacks call each other "nigga's" 24-7 and have learned to accept this Jim Crow term as a term of endearment. So why should we expect others not too?
whoknows wrote:i think that we(blacks) should be addressing all issues that blacks face together as a whole instead of trying to fight it as a divided race.
Agreed. I believe the first step is common courtesy and respect toward other blacks. Never call another black man Nicca, Nigga, My Nigah, or whatever derivative that's on the market. It all comes from the same root word..."NIGGER." Which means lower than low, and you get No Respect.

whoknows wrote:you right their is opportunities out their for people with squeeky clean records. once you got a felony it's a rap ain't 2 many opportuinities out their for you. which is #%@& up because alot of brothers get locked up and wanna change but will never get a chance to.
The first step is preventative. Don't Get A Felony. Why do we take this for granted? Fools get locked up everyday, and we are still not getting the message. What does it takes to learn the message? Now, that the felony has been earned....Now what? It's time to get some serious professional help. A life coach, couselor, mentor, or some other type of resource manager. There are programs specifically geared towards helping out ex cons.
whoknows wrote:what do blacks have laid and shelved out for us? u act like people in the hood making less than 18,000.00 dollars a year have it made. shit if u making less than 18,000.00 a year u ain't got it made u in poverty.
Agreed, and it's rough.
whoknows wrote:i don't know why people always say that poor foreigners come here cause they see opportunity. what opportunity?
That's my point. You don't see it. Take a trip out of the country, live with the people (not a resort or tourist commuity), when you return, you may see it then.
whoknows wrote:they get here and make pretty much the same pay we make, less than 18 a year with no benefits. but these foreigners be happy with that because in they own country they was making less than 2 g'z a year. so of course they gone think that americans are spoiled. but these foreigners are smart because they take that 18 and funnel it back 2 they country and flip that biatch.
True. They know how to flip it...... :lol:

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Unread post by exsdustynig » April 19th, 2006, 9:37 pm

i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man

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Unread post by 'X' » April 19th, 2006, 10:24 pm

exsdustynig wrote:i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man
Them movies and all that is cool I guess, but I'd like to see of these Black millionaires build some schools in our communities..Thats what we need, not more hang out spots....

UmanH-ay

Unread post by UmanH-ay » April 20th, 2006, 2:30 am

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:
Old Shatterhand wrote:
X wrote:
BG MLOCO wrote:SOMEONE NEEDS TO STEP UP THE ONLY ONE I SEE DOING THAT IS BRO. MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN.

TEEEEEEACH!!!!


Our Brother has been teaching and trying to wake us up for over 50 years and we refuse to take heed. He has clearly outlined from the teachings of The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad everything our people need to do to overcome our problems overnight!!!! I'm sure once our Brother is not here to teach us, many will grieve or pay tribute just as we have done many other Black leaders, but we refuse to listen while they are in our midst.
You mean, like he talks about on television, when the UFO that is circling the earth beams him up. Yeah right.
The founders of the NOI are GENIUS.

They are truly masters of the mass manipulation and con game.

Who else convinced completely reasonable, educated, and knowledgable human beings that a UFO is going to take all of the black people?

That God is a man name "M. W. Fard" and he was talking with Elijah Mohammad?

On top of that convincing people that this was Islam when in the Qu'ran it clearly says that there will be no prophet(contact with God) after Prophet Mohammad (not Elijah)?

Using the mass movement of black power and anti-whites into a pyramid scheme and convincing intelligent people that a "BIG HEADED SCIENTIST NAMED YACOOB BREEDED THE LIGHTEST HUMANS TO CREATE A DEVIL RACE THAT BECAME THE WHITE MAN" :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And then years later backpedal on the devil-white theory and still keeping membership and existance by continued focus on hating whites?

And kill off one of their greatest spokesman when he realized this was not Islam and was about to start his own organization but yet keep their members from believing it?

The only other group that comes close in this day and age is the Scientologists.
Real Talk

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 12:25 pm

X wrote:
exsdustynig wrote:i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man
Them movies and all that is cool I guess, but I'd like to see of these Black millionaires build some schools in our communities..Thats what we need, not more hang out spots....
Exactly. And if they do build a recreation center, make it "involved." NOt just a park but a "center" for programs to keep kids out of trouble, like a YMCA.

But a tutoring center or school would be best.

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 20th, 2006, 12:53 pm

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:
X wrote:
exsdustynig wrote:i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man
Them movies and all that is cool I guess, but I'd like to see of these Black millionaires build some schools in our communities..Thats what we need, not more hang out spots....
Exactly. And if they do build a recreation center, make it "involved." NOt just a park but a "center" for programs to keep kids out of trouble, like a YMCA.

But a tutoring center or school would be best.
The YMCA "old school" approach made a lot of sense back in the day. Now days the old school ideals are out and they seem to be creating confused wussies.. lol. j/k. Check out this quote:

"George Williams founded the YMCA in 1844 to meet the needs of young men in the city in order to cultivate a place where they could exercise and socialize within a Christian environment. The YWCA was started in 1866 to meet the similar needs of young women. As a result of the YMCA, the Boy Scouts of America was founded in 1910 and the Girl Scouts of America followed in 1912. Whereas the original intent of these organizations was to pursue Christian ideals, they have now added an amalgamation of Buddhist and Hindu rituals, such as tai chi and yoga.

The promise of unlimited human potential is the foundation of Eastern mysticism, New Age movement, occult, paganism, Satanism, and witchcraft. The promise of empowerment is very seductive for often naïve practitioners. It is this promise that is continually repackaged into businesses, churches, education, and health care. Bookstores tout elaborate New Age sections that titillate their unsuspecting readers with Eastern philosophies. However, the lurid promises of Eastern religion fail to deliver in the end. For instance, the Eastern worldview of Hinduism has completely turned the value system of India on its head. Nevertheless, the consequences of such a worldview seem to escape Westerners who are viewing these beliefs as charming and chic."

I'll take the old school 24/7. 8)

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 2:00 pm

Man yoga by itself has no relgiion, you can filter it out, if the teacher tell's you you're breathing in some bs energy/prana, just take it out and in your mind say you're breathing in the air God has provided.

Just because people try to add religion/mysticism/spirituality to a practice doesn't make it true.

At one time alchemy/chemistry was thought of a Satanist, and some alchemists/chemists were Satanist, but would you say that this is inherently true? No, God created the elements and God created their properties, just because someone says it's witchcraft didn't make it true. And now we know that today it's purely scientific.

Same with yoga, martial arts, and other practices. The only thing is that in some places like muay thai they have you pray to some bs gods before a fight, so just skip that part or pray to the one true God.


And besides, I was talking of neutral sports, like basketball and stuff.

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 20th, 2006, 5:05 pm

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:Man yoga by itself has no relgiion, you can filter it out, if the teacher tell's you you're breathing in some bs energy/prana, just take it out and in your mind say you're breathing in the air God has provided.

--> I hear you and I agree with that. Unfortunately it tends to be progressive with the higher instructors being more indoctronated than the lower ones. Where I train the Yoga instructor is also the hynotherapist, etc... That's just how it is. The more you press in the more you see it.

Just because people try to add religion/mysticism/spirituality to a practice doesn't make it true.

--> The occult is real. I wish it weren't but it is. Fortunately, an authentic Christian is both aware of it, able to discern it for what it is, and protected from it.

At one time alchemy/chemistry was thought of a Satanist, and some alchemists/chemists were Satanist, but would you say that this is inherently true? No, God created the elements and God created their properties, just because someone says it's witchcraft didn't make it true. And now we know that today it's purely scientific.

--> Word.

Same with yoga, martial arts, and other practices. The only thing is that in some places like muay thai they have you pray to some bs gods before a fight, so just skip that part or pray to the one true God.

--> The occultic connection between the practices and the beliefs are ancient and go much deeper than you have apparently been taught.

Also there is a difference between learning a martial art from an authentic Christian who has stripped out all aspects of the occult and false religious beliefs simply teaching a fighting martial art and a non-Christian who expouses the doctrines of demons inherent within the ancient false religious systems. I'm sure that God does not want you to train with the latter all the while pretending to go along with the program.

Honestly it's no joke. Take a study at Harvard, for example, they did a project where they tested Budhist monk's psychic powers recording the results on film.

They went into the Artic in zero degree weather accompanyed by ten monks wearing only sandals and light cotton wraparound cloths. At 19,000 feet the monks took off their sandals and squatted down on their haunches, leaned forward, and put their heads on the ground. They spent the entire night, as the temperature went sub zero getting colder and colder still, practicing a special type of gTum-mo meditation called Repeu while snow drifted over them until the early morning hours. Finally at the sounding of a small horn, they stood up, shook the snow off, put their sandals and calmly left.

The medical doctor on the experiment was clear when he said that no ordinary person could have survived.

The demonic doctrine for accomplishing this was explained like this by Paramahansa Yogananada: "Lord Krishna pointed out the holy science by which the yogi may master his body and cconvert it, at will, into energy. All matter has been proved to be reducible to energy."

The real truth is that there is zero evience that any atomic conversion of any part of a yogi's body takes place and that has been tested under laboratory conditions. Seriously, if that were the case, yogis would not need to eat, drink, or sleep and would be like Superman. Yogis have definite limitations far below the level of atomic energy. The possessing demon is obviously limited in what it can manifest through a willing host human body.

The scientists at Harvard and elsewhere accumulate data which shows that something paranormal is going on but science canot explain it because the source behind psychic power is not atomic but demonic. Eastern meditation, credited with psychic power, is increasingly popular in the West and is another door into the occult.

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Unread post by 'X' » April 20th, 2006, 5:17 pm

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:
X wrote:
exsdustynig wrote:i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man
Them movies and all that is cool I guess, but I'd like to see of these Black millionaires build some schools in our communities..Thats what we need, not more hang out spots....
Exactly. And if they do build a recreation center, make it "involved." NOt just a park but a "center" for programs to keep kids out of trouble, like a YMCA.

But a tutoring center or school would be best.
Agree, but the "powers that be" would not allow such a thing..Thats why as Black men we have to man up and say f!@# what this enemy not going to allow but move out on faith and do whats right for our communities. But the majority of Black folk with money who can build schools and other positive things are too disconnected from where many of them themselves came from and their children are not going to the schools were books are short on supply and the conditions are horrible, so they aint caring...

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 20th, 2006, 5:40 pm

X wrote:
EVN - I'm just me... wrote:
X wrote:
exsdustynig wrote:i feel magic johnson is a leader bcuz he gives bac to the community he has a movie theatre, TGIF, and a park all in the hood well not the tgif but the park especially is in the ghetto so i gotta respect that man
Them movies and all that is cool I guess, but I'd like to see of these Black millionaires build some schools in our communities..Thats what we need, not more hang out spots....
Exactly. And if they do build a recreation center, make it "involved." NOt just a park but a "center" for programs to keep kids out of trouble, like a YMCA.

But a tutoring center or school would be best.
Agree, but the "powers that be" would not allow such a thing..Thats why as Black men we have to man up and say f!@# what this enemy not going to allow but move out on faith and do whats right for our communities. But the majority of Black folk with money who can build schools and other positive things are too disconnected from where many of them themselves came from and their children are not going to the schools were books are short on supply and the conditions are horrible, so they aint caring...
I would say these days that the pure materialism that so many people in the USA, regardless of race, literally define themselves by has terrible consequences for the poor here.

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 8:25 pm

Shatterhand about the "energy" thing, I think that it's more of "suspended animation." By copmletely relaxing and psychologically dissociating (i.e. not thinking) from the pain/cold, the body can sort of "coma-lize" itself, and we all know that a body in a vegetable state can survive for a while, look at what happened with that girl in a vegetative state last year when they pulled the plug.

They did a more controlled test with a Buddhist monk and they asked him to focus on keeping his hand from pain while they montored him. His nerve stimulus from his hand was drastically reduced, as in the brain was sending/receiving less signals to the area, thus feeling basically no pain. Then they did a control with salty ice water in which his wrist was strapped to cut off most blood circulation then dipped to basically freeze his hand, which according to the "pain expert" on board was the highest level of pain possible, and he felt nothing, and the montors on him and his brain showed that it was a nerve thing, and thsu mental.



X - that is the sad human psychology - out of sight out of mind. One must consciously maintain awareness, but in physical comfort and materialism ruin much of that.

You're right in saying people must move in faith and do the right thing, but wealth takes away motivaiton. This leads people to believing communism is a solution, but unfortunately it makes things a lot worse. You will never see as drastic seperation of 2 classes as you would in a communist nation.

One of the best books on this I have read (apart from the Bible) is "Grapes of Wrath." It's about Depression-Era migrant workers who lost their farms and homes in terrible harvests. It says necessity, anger and hunger both lead to power to work or fight, while lack of hunger leads to becoming "soft." Not always true, but generally true.

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Unread post by 'X' » April 20th, 2006, 10:32 pm

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:
X - wealth takes away motivaiton.

^^Interesting....

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 10:52 pm

Truth is sad like that.

Did you read Grapes of Wrath? It's a good read, I think it would be your type of book if you haven't checked it out yet, that was the best description of human struggle and failing economy I've read in a story format.

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 11:03 pm

Oh, p.s. just to be accurate, security of a desired living standard takes away motivation

So in America this translates to wealth, but in some places it translates to failing communism, since the same amount is given regardless ouf output.

I can honestly say I've experienced both sides, and I have to say it's true.

Who has the stereotype of doing drugs? The poor and the extremely rich (like celebrities). Why?

The poor lack necessities so they have the most energy/motivation to work, yet they feel mentally hopeless and sadly many give up and go to substance abuse.

The rich have the ability/hope to do work, but lack the motivation since they have what they feel they need.

This is the sad human nature of selfish desire and apathy.

So in this respect, everyone in the middle has the advantage in a broader, generic sense, and small businesses with success come to mind.

That's also why we love movies and even music videos and tv shows about "making it to the top" where the character is in a position of lacking and struggles up, we love to see David beat Goliath and really show spirit.

I think it's important to note that the majority of the great figures of the Bible (and even a few of the Qu'ran) experienced great poverty and social rejection, and yet they did not fall prey to the hopelessness-mentality because of God.

To be un-neutral, I would say the most imporant thing to build in a community is a good, solid chruch, but humans being humans, even that can become tainted.

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 20th, 2006, 11:05 pm

where's an edit button when you need it

lol one more thing

I think the likes of TI and Cassidy and people like them are idiotic morons, but either they or their managers understand the human psyche. All of their videos are on this, TI even has a song called "Motivation" so whoever is writing their songs and stuff really knows the entertainment game.

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 21st, 2006, 12:45 am

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:Shatterhand about the "energy" thing, I think that it's more of "suspended animation." By copmletely relaxing and psychologically dissociating (i.e. not thinking) from the pain/cold, the body can sort of "coma-lize" itself, and we all know that a body in a vegetable state can survive for a while, look at what happened with that girl in a vegetative state last year when they pulled the plug.

They did a more controlled test with a Buddhist monk and they asked him to focus on keeping his hand from pain while they montored him. His nerve stimulus from his hand was drastically reduced, as in the brain was sending/receiving less signals to the area, thus feeling basically no pain. Then they did a control with salty ice water in which his wrist was strapped to cut off most blood circulation then dipped to basically freeze his hand, which according to the "pain expert" on board was the highest level of pain possible, and he felt nothing, and the montors on him and his brain showed that it was a nerve thing, and thsu mental.
With respect, I have to disagree. Kneeling naked in sub zero degree weather at 19,000 feet for 12 hours while it snows on you without any discernable negative physical result or injury is beyond just controlling pain. Ten average people would have frozen to death which the doctor confirmed without doubt.

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Unread post by L Grindin » April 21st, 2006, 9:37 am

EVN - I'm just me... wrote:To be un-neutral, I would say the most imporant thing to build in a community is a good, solid chruch
Does this mean that you believe that only christian churches can improve the Black community?

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Unread post by Common Sense » April 21st, 2006, 11:01 am

^^^Hmmm. Blacks are traditionally god fearing people. One tends to find an abundance of Christian churches in the black community. Some parts of South L.A., you'll find them practically on every corner, and still look at the state of affairs in the black community. One could also argue that many parisherners, eventhough they may regularly attend services, really don't live up to a "christian lifestye." It some cases, it almost seems trendy to go to church, but not really for the right reasons.

On the other hand, maybe the Church does more good than we believe. It thousands of black youths and adults with christian based upbrining is still out there "acting like fools" with Christian Church influence, one could only imagine what it would be like without the church.

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Unread post by L Grindin » April 21st, 2006, 12:49 pm

I don’t think that things would be worse without the church; the only thing that prevents total anarchy is the fear of the legal ramifications, yet many people still violate the law and commit some of the worst “sins” that anyone can do to another human.

I believe that commonly held christian beliefs are detrimental to the Black community, and that the true essence of who Jesus was has been lost. Rather than living one’s life in fear of eternal damnation for not living a “christian” life, Black people, and especially Black leaders, need to focus on what will improve our communities now. More action needs to take place instead of hoping that prayer will alleviate all problems, and that any negative things that occur is god’s will.

The message needs to change from “god/Jesus is in control of my destiny” to “I am in control of my own destiny.” And when Black people realize that, they will know that they have more control over their lives than they realize, which will result in the improvement of our well-being.

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Unread post by Common Sense » April 21st, 2006, 1:40 pm

^^Agreed and well said.

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 21st, 2006, 1:45 pm

Common Sense wrote:One could also argue that many parisherners, eventhough they may regularly attend services, really don't live up to a "christian lifestye." It some cases, it almost seems trendy to go to church, but not really for the right reasons.
That's exactly what I'm talking about when I emphasize it has to be a "good, solid" church.

Okay the rest is gonna sound racist, but I'm talking on experience and I don't intend to "mark" everyone this way, just an observation.

In general, Korean chruches have doen more to either remove or dilute the gang lifestyle in kids.

If any of you remember "KK - Korean Killers" then you know how serious they were.

But you also know that now they're really not much of an issue and the only few remaining are now "LGKK - Last Generation KK"

Why?

Most of their heads became Christian and left. One of their founding members (he was there when they got the whole KK concept) is now a pastor at my friends church.


On the other hand, I see my black brothers in Christ trying to "do both at once." Most Korean gangs I see either denounce Christianity or denounce the gang lifestyle - but nowadays people want to do both at once. Being a Christian is more than just being saved, part of that is that you are a "new creation" but the fact taht many chruches don't want to scare off kids ends up having them not set any rules. Of course you don't judge, and for new members you just try to make them feel comfortable, but it becomes an issue when after years they're doing the same thing. That's the time a pastor or an older guy in the church should talk to them and instruct them, make sure they understand the concept of choice. But it seems a lot of people don't care much anymore.


On the other hand, maybe the Church does more good than we believe. It thousands of black youths and adults with christian based upbrining is still out there "acting like fools" with Christian Church influence, one could only imagine what it would be like without the church.
True

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 21st, 2006, 3:12 pm

L Grindin wrote:I don’t think that things would be worse without the church; the only thing that prevents total anarchy is the fear of the legal ramifications, yet many people still violate the law and commit some of the worst “sins” that anyone can do to another human.

--> This is a fallacy. The reason why is because the assertion that "the only thing that prevents total anarchy is the fear of the legal ramifications" is not true. The behavior of persons is guided by much more than just the fear of legal ramifications. It is guided by personal beliefs too of which the church is representative of for many.

I believe that commonly held christian beliefs are detrimental to the Black community, and that the true essence of who Jesus was has been lost. Rather than living one’s life in fear of eternal damnation for not living a “christian” life, Black people, and especially Black leaders, need to focus on what will improve our communities now. More action needs to take place instead of hoping that prayer will alleviate all problems, and that any negative things that occur is god’s will.

--> I believe that authentic Christian beliefs are quite helpful to society in general. For example: though shall not murder, thall shall not steal, though shall not commit adultry, though shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, etc... but really the focus of authentic Christians as taught in scripture is on how to live and enjoy a rightous life and not simply a list of what not to dos which you seem to be indicating. The true essence of who Jesus is lives in every true believer in the form of the spirit of God and those endowed with such certainly do not "fear damnation". They have God's promise of salvation written on their heart and it isn't "removed" just because they might backslide or make mistakes. You don't seem to know what the Bible actually teaches. And the early apostolic church was very much involved in social change, "Christian leaders" in the Black community need to repent and return to their example instead of playing at church. Then you will see real change.

The message needs to change from “god/Jesus is in control of my destiny” to “I am in control of my own destiny.” And when Black people realize that, they will know that they have more control over their lives than they realize, which will result in the improvement of our well-being.

--> The message needs to change from "I can do/choose not to do whatever I want" to "I have a responsibility to do what is right" then people everywhere will be actively involved doing what is right which will result in major improvements across the board.

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Unread post by L Grindin » April 21st, 2006, 4:36 pm

Old Shatterhand wrote: This is a fallacy. The reason why is because the assertion that "the only thing that prevents total anarchy is the fear of the legal ramifications" is not true. The behavior of persons is guided by much more than just the fear of legal ramifications. It is guided by personal beliefs too of which the church is representative of for many.
It is not a fallacy, and is no less a fallacy than what you said. What I said was in direct response to something that was said by Common Sense, which involves our community of people, and not all of society. Your arguments speak generally, rather than focusing on issues that pertain to the Black community, which relates to the topic of this thread.

Old Shatterhand wrote: I believe that authentic Christian beliefs are quite helpful to society in general. For example: though shall not murder, thall shall not steal, though shall not commit adultry, though shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, etc... but really the focus of authentic Christians as taught in scripture is on how to live and enjoy a rightous life and not simply a list of what not to dos which you seem to be indicating. The true essence of who Jesus is lives in every true believer in the form of the spirit of God and those endowed with such certainly do not "fear damnation". They have God's promise of salvation written on their heart and it isn't "removed" just because they might backslide or make mistakes. You don't seem to know what the Bible actually teaches. And the early apostolic church was very much involved in social change, "Christian leaders" in the Black community need to repent and return to their example instead of playing at church. Then you will see real change.
I understand what I need to know. There are differences amongst many christians, which is why there are various denominations of christianity; your understanding of christianity is not shared by all christians, nor does it make your beliefs correct, and those of others wrong. You also seem to have misunderstood what I said, because you have equated the bible to what I believe is the true essence of who Jesus was, and I don’t believe they are equal, and I don’t believe that the bible is the sole arbiter of the essence of Jesus.
Old Shatterhand wrote:The message needs to change from "I can do/choose not to do whatever I want" to "I have a responsibility to do what is right" then people everywhere will be actively involved doing what is right which will result in major improvements across the board.
The title of this thread involves Black leaders, and that’s why I mentioned Black people specifically. My comments were meant to offer my opinion of what benefits the Black community, and were not intended to create a separate discussion about other people, or religion. You appear to be more interested in discussing religion than sticking to issues that relate to the topic of this thread.

Was your former name “Kemosave?” If you are, you should know who I am, and that it is unlikely that we will agree on issues concerning race and religion, therefore there is no reason for us to debate that. Kemosave had a penchant for trying to turn many conversations into religious discussions, and this thread isn’t the place for that. And where religion involves issues of race, it is highly improbable that we will agree on anything, because if you are Kemosave, or otherwise non-Black, you lack the standing to debate a Black man on the affairs of the Black community.

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Unread post by 'X' » April 21st, 2006, 6:18 pm

L Grindin wrote:
Was your former name “Kemosave?” If you are, you should know who I am, and that it is unlikely that we will agree on issues concerning race and religion, therefore there is no reason for us to debate that. Kemosave had a penchant for trying to turn many conversations into religious discussions, and this thread isn’t the place for that. And where religion involves issues of race, it is highly improbable that we will agree on anything, because if you are Kemosave, or otherwise non-Black, you lack the standing to debate a Black man on the affairs of the Black community.

So thats who dude is?? :roll: I knew his post looked familiar. Anyway, I agree with you brutha, "old shatterhand(kemosave?)" tends to join in on threads dealing with our peoples struggle and strays into left field on a whole different subject and the next thing you know he has other posters getting off topic.


And "L Grindin", you speaking alot of truth, I appreciate you you adding your thoughts and opinions to these topics. I think much can be learned from you and a few other bruthas here if others kept to the topic and left out all the bs....

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Unread post by Old Shatterhand » April 21st, 2006, 6:28 pm

L Grindin wrote:
Old Shatterhand wrote: This is a fallacy. The reason why is because the assertion that "the only thing that prevents total anarchy is the fear of the legal ramifications" is not true. The behavior of persons is guided by much more than just the fear of legal ramifications. It is guided by personal beliefs too of which the church is representative of for many.
It is not a fallacy, and is no less a fallacy than what you said. What I said was in direct response to something that was said by Common Sense, which involves our community of people, and not all of society. Your arguments speak generally, rather than focusing on issues that pertain to the Black community, which relates to the topic of this thread.

--> Yes it is a fallacy and that is provable using the principles of logic regarding formal and informal fallacies. I'm looking at "Elementary Logic" by Mates and it is clear that your assertion is a fallacy. I'm not trying to be rude but it is true and my comment was quite accurate. Again, I don't mind apologizing for jumping into the discussion but it is a forum and that's what we do here and my comment regarding one's personal beliefs being partly responsible for guiding behavior was right on.
Old Shatterhand wrote: I believe that authentic Christian beliefs are quite helpful to society in general. For example: though shall not murder, thall shall not steal, though shall not commit adultry, though shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, etc... but really the focus of authentic Christians as taught in scripture is on how to live and enjoy a rightous life and not simply a list of what not to dos which you seem to be indicating. The true essence of who Jesus is lives in every true believer in the form of the spirit of God and those endowed with such certainly do not "fear damnation". They have God's promise of salvation written on their heart and it isn't "removed" just because they might backslide or make mistakes. You don't seem to know what the Bible actually teaches. And the early apostolic church was very much involved in social change, "Christian leaders" in the Black community need to repent and return to their example instead of playing at church. Then you will see real change.
I understand what I need to know. There are differences amongst many christians, which is why there are various denominations of christianity; your understanding of christianity is not shared by all christians, nor does it make your beliefs correct, and those of others wrong. You also seem to have misunderstood what I said, because you have equated the bible to what I believe is the true essence of who Jesus was, and I don’t believe they are equal, and I don’t believe that the bible is the sole arbiter of the essence of Jesus.

--> You can believe that you know everything you need to know but I'm thinking that you don't and that's ego right there imo. I think you need to know a lot more based on what you are communicating here imo [NO disrespect] and you know what: I think we all need to know a lot more. Learning never stops for the wise.

Now authentic Christians understand the truth of the Christian faith, have accepted it, conformed to it, and their lives bear fruit of it. The rest don't for various reasons including but in no way limited to ignorance, misinformation, rebellion, etc... Simply the fact that different denominations exist in no way negates truth. We can discuss whether or not real truth exists. I assert that it does and can prove it using textbook logic properly. Now if you have an untrue understanding of who Jesus is then you don't have the truth regarding Him. The fact that one believes something is not relevant to whether the belief is true or not. You assert that you don't believe the Bible is the sole arbiter of the essence of Jesus. Expand on that. I'm ready to discuss it.
Old Shatterhand wrote:The message needs to change from "I can do/choose not to do whatever I want" to "I have a responsibility to do what is right" then people everywhere will be actively involved doing what is right which will result in major improvements across the board.
The title of this thread involves Black leaders, and that’s why I mentioned Black people specifically. My comments were meant to offer my opinion of what benefits the Black community, and were not intended to create a separate discussion about other people, or religion. You appear to be more interested in discussing religion than sticking to issues that relate to the topic of this thread.

Was your former name “Kemosave?” If you are, you should know who I am, and that it is unlikely that we will agree on issues concerning race and religion, therefore there is no reason for us to debate that. Kemosave had a penchant for trying to turn many conversations into religious discussions, and this thread isn’t the place for that. And where religion involves issues of race, it is highly improbable that we will agree on anything, because if you are Kemosave, or otherwise non-Black, you lack the standing to debate a Black man on the affairs of the Black community.

--> An ad hominem attack won't make you right. Stick to the facts. Your attempt to demarcate is not realistic for many reasons not the least of which is that one's personal metaphysical beliefs are echoed in these discussions on many levels including but not limited to origin of life, origin of humanity, racial relations, and the social sciences of which this thread is definitely about.

And being Black doesn't endow one automatically with truth anymore than being White, Yellow, or Red does. That should be obvious. One either has the truth or they do not. And truth is the basis from which all good decision-making must be based on. I don't have to be Black to apply truth and good decision-making to problems that affect society and the Black community though I concede that being Black affords valuable insights.

MiChuhSuh

Unread post by MiChuhSuh » April 21st, 2006, 6:51 pm

Okay so to tie this back in with the topic, I think MLK Jr. was the greatest black leader of the 20th Century, being that he worked out of Christianity and got the most results (results being changes in policy and not just getting people riled up)

Today... I would say that right now there is no good black leader today.

This was a recent poll of Blacks from February 2006 asking who they consider the most important black leader (dead or alive):

Top leaders:

Jesse Jackson, 15%
Condoleezza Rice, 11%
Colin Powell, 8%
Barack Obama, 6%
Louis Farrakhan, 4%
Oprah Winfrey, 3%
Martin Luther King Jr., 3%
Al Sharpton, 2%
Others, 14%
Not sure, 21%
No one, 13%



http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... e=printart

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Unread post by L Grindin » April 21st, 2006, 6:56 pm

Old Shatterhand wrote:I concede that being Black affords valuable insights
END OF STORY! Until you are born Black, raised around Black people, experience racism because of your Blackness, and know how most Black people think about social issues, including the influence of christianity in the Black community, then you have no right to criticize a Black man who does. Your response shows that you have NO CLUE as to what I’m talking about, and I won’t allow you to drag me into a religious discussion!

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Unread post by L Grindin » April 21st, 2006, 7:07 pm

X wrote:
L Grindin wrote:
Was your former name “Kemosave?” If you are, you should know who I am, and that it is unlikely that we will agree on issues concerning race and religion, therefore there is no reason for us to debate that. Kemosave had a penchant for trying to turn many conversations into religious discussions, and this thread isn’t the place for that. And where religion involves issues of race, it is highly improbable that we will agree on anything, because if you are Kemosave, or otherwise non-Black, you lack the standing to debate a Black man on the affairs of the Black community.
So thats who dude is?? :roll: I knew his post looked familiar. Anyway, I agree with you brutha, "old shatterhand(kemosave?)" tends to join in on threads dealing with our peoples struggle and strays into left field on a whole different subject and the next thing you know he has other posters getting off topic.

And "L Grindin", you speaking alot of truth, I appreciate you you adding your thoughts and opinions to these topics. I think much can be learned from you and a few other bruthas here if others kept to the topic and left out all the bs....
I sincerely appreciate your compliments! As you see, regardless of what I say, he continues to try and change the subject but he won’t succeed. These other folks don’t understand our struggle, they are constantly trying to keep the truth hidden from us, and if we fall into their trap, our problems will remain.

Brothers such as you and I must stay strong, focused, and continue to speak the truth in order to enlighten our people, because if we don't do it, then nobody else will!

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