Muhammed of Islam

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
Anonymous20

Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by Anonymous20 » May 23rd, 2004, 11:39 pm

Muhammed had 11 or 13 wives when he died in his 60s, the author of the Koran, but one of his wives, Aisha, was 6 years old when she was given to him, as they say.

Even during the 7th Century, was 6 years old a bit too young?

She ended up being his favorite wife and with all the kids he made, he never had a son that survived. It is beleived that becasue he was trying to have a son before he died, he went past the 4 wives allowed in the Koran in an attempt to have that boy, his would be successor that he never had.

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by kyh » June 17th, 2004, 10:18 pm

I read in one of my books that he only had one wife when he died.

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by Shortty » July 5th, 2004, 2:22 pm

His first marriage was to a 40 year old woman when he was 25... he married that girl when she was 11. And that was common back in the day...

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by el tio » July 9th, 2004, 2:02 pm

alonso wrote:...Even during the 7th Century, was 6 years old a bit too young?...
HELL YEAH IT WAS!

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by D33Q » December 10th, 2004, 7:14 am

bein a muslim myself, i was told all his sons died becuase he was meant to be the last prophet (pbuh) and if he had another son, then the prophecy will contunie to one of his sons or his single son

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by D33Q » December 16th, 2004, 1:24 pm

on the 9 year old thing, im not saying nothin cuase i got a lotta respect fo him and not gon start sayin bad stuff bout him

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 11th, 2005, 6:11 pm

Muhammad

He is important both for the inception of Islam as a major world religion, and the shaping of Islamic theology and civilization for the past fourteen centuries. Here is a historical view:

BIRTH AND YOUTH
We have very little reliable historical information about Muhammad's birth and formative years as a Meccan youth. However, this much we know: He was born into the Hashim family of the powerful tribe of Quraysh around A.D. 570 in Mecca, a great city of commerce in the Arabian peninsula. Muhammad's father, Abdullah, passed away before his son's birth, and his mother, Amina, died when he was only six years old.

At the age of eight Muhammad lost his influential grandfather, Abd al-Muttalib, who had been taking care of him since his birth. He was then put under the care of his loving uncle, Abu Talib. According to legend, a host of angels joyously attended his birth. As soon as the infant was born, he fell to the ground, took a handful of dust and gazed toward heaven, proclaiming, "God is Great." The legend says that he was born clean, circumcised, with his navel cord already cut. Many other global
signs are said to have followed this event, such as the appearance of a
light that illuminated the palaces of Bostra and the flooding of a lake that "caused the palace of Khosroes (the King of Persia) to crack, and the fire of Zoroastrians to die.

Even though Muhammad was part of a noble and prosperous family, it
appears that at the time the household of Abu Talib was somewhat poverty-stricken; the young Muhammad had to earn his own livelihood by serving as a shepherd boy and trader. One important incident recounted in all his biographies relates to a business trip that the young child (around the age of twelve) took with his uncle's caravan to Syria. It is said that a Syrian monk by the name of Buhaira recognized the young Muhammad as the coming final prophet who had been prophesied about in all the previous Scriptures. He then advised Muhammad's uncle to "guard him carefully against the Jews, for by Allah! if they see him, and know about him what I know, they will do him evil.

Overall, what we can gather from Islamic sources is that Muhammad, though orphaned, lived a relatively normal childhood. As Haykal comments, "Muhammad grew like any other child would in the city of Makkakw." Of course, according to Islamic tradition one major exception in the case of Muhammad is the fact that he was spared from participating in the pagan activities of Meccan life? He was also known to be sincere and honest and his title even before his call to prophethood was Al-Arnin, the faithful one.

MARRIAGE AND ADULT LIFE
At the age of twenty-five, after conducting a successful caravan trade to Syria for a wealthy widow by the name of Khadija, Muhamrpad accepted Khadija's offer to marry her. Despite the fact that she was fifteen years his senior, the marriage proved to be a happy one for both. The couple had two sons who died in infancy, and four daughters. Almost nothing is known about this stage of Muhammad's adult life except that it seems his good reputation and respect constantly grew among his people.

THE BASIC DOCTRINES OF ORTHODOX ISLAM
It is during this time period that many have speculated Muhammad grew more and more discontent with the paganism and idolatry of his society. This was not unique since several other prominent citizens of Mecca at that time had already denounced the paganism of their homeland and declared their faith in the one true God, including Jews and Christians.

In accordance with the custom of the pious souls, Muhammad began the practice of devoting "a period of each year to a retreat of worship, asceticism, and prayer. Some say he would spend the whole month of Ramadan in a cave on Mount Hira two miles north of the city of Mecca, living on meager rations and meditating in peace and solitude.

PROPHETICC ALL
After years of meditation in solitude, finally in the yearA.D. 610, when Muhammad was forty years of age, he believed that he received his prophetic call from God through the angel Gabriel. Ibn Ishaq, the earliest biographer of Muhammad, relates the story in the following way: "When it was the night on which God honoured him with his mission and showed mercy on His servants thereby, Gabriel brought him the command of God. 'He came to me,' said the apostle of God, 'while I was asleep, with a coverlet of brocade whereon was some writing, and said, "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with it so tightly that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said, "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with it again so that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with it the third time so that I thought it was death and said "Read!" I said, "What then shall I read?"-and this I said only to deliver myself from him, lest he should do the same to me again. He said: "Read in the name of thy Lord who created, Who created man of blood coagulated. Read! Thy Lord is the most beneficent, Who taught by the pen, Taught that which they knew not unto men." So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart.'''

Now there are conflicting opinions among Muslim historians about several
of the details of the above account. However, this appears to be the most accepted version of the beginning of Muhammad's prophetic career.

At first Muhammad was deathly afraid of the source of his newly found revelation, believing that he was possessed by a jinn or evil spirit. But he found in Khadija a great source of comfort and encouragement. Khadija is also said to have relayed this incident to her Christian cousin Waraqah, who upon hearing her descriptions reassured her that Muhammad's source of revelation was the same as that of Moses, and that he too would be a prophet of his nation.

After the advent of the first revelation came a long interval of silence that, according to some accounts, lasted about three years. Once again Muhammad sank into the depths of despair, feeling forsaken by God and even entertaining thoughts of suicide. But this interlude also passed and the prophet resumed receiving the messages from the angel. Muhammad began his ministry by preaching his mission-first among his friends and relatives secretly, and thereafter publicly in the city. He called this new faith Islam (submission) and claimed that he was merely a Warner to his people. His basic message consisted of belief in the one sovereign God, resurrection and the last judgment, and the practicing of charity to the poor and the orphans. Among his first converts were his loyal wife Khadija, his cousin Ali, his adopted son Zaid, and his lifelong faithful companion Abu Bakr.

Even though Muhammad was gradually attracting a small group of followers, most of whom were young and of no great social standing, the great majority of the powerful and influential Meccans opposed this new
revelation. The opposition grew from indifference to hostility against the new faith. Several factors were involved in the dynamics of this antagonistic relationship.

On a religious level the powerful Meccans resisted Muhammad's doctrine of God's oneness, since it went against their belief in the power of idols, gods, and goddesses. Some modern historians believe that the Meccans of Muhammad's time no longer had an active faith in their own religious institutions but were interested in preserving the central sanctuary of Mecca as a lucrative destination for pilgrimages. They also showed a great dislike for Muhammad's constant warning of the hereafter, the last judgment. On the social or cultural level, the Meccans rejected Muhammad because of their fear that their inherited way of life was being attacked and destroyed. The old was threatened by the new, a scenario not uncommon in the history of humankind.

Another interesting insight gathered from evidence in the Qur'an is that an important cause for "the indignation of the leading circles, then, was that a common man. . . who possessed no natural claim to authority and prestige, should set himself up as a prophet and claim to have authority over others."

These elements gave rise to a new wave of persecution against Muhammad and his followers. We are not certain about the extent of the persecution of Muslims in Mecca. There was some direct physical violence, especially toward the less affluent individuals in the society. However, Muhammad's life was well protected by virtue of his close ties to Abu Talib, but he was not immune from verbal abuse by his mocking opponents (such as accusations that he was a soothsayer, a madman, or even demon-possessed), or occasional annoyances such as having filth thrown at his house. The continual harassment of his followers is said to have led to the flight of a considerable number of Muslims, who sought refuge under the Christian king of Abyssinia.

The earliest biographers of the prophet mention an interesting incident that occurred during this mid-Meccan period. It is related that in one of his sermons in front of the leaders of Meccan antagonists, Muhammad, in order to win the support of his opponents, proclaimed that the favorite deities al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat could be considered divine beings whose intercession was effectual with God. But soon the prophet believed these words to be interpolations of Satan and substituted the words that we now have in 53: 19-23 (see also 22:51). These have become known as the "Satanic verses." Some modern biographers of Muhammad, like Haykal, try to discredit this story. But to many, it seems inconceivable that later generations of Muslims should have invented this about their own prophet.

Other contemporary Muslims, like Rahman, view this incident as perfectly intelligible. As Watt points out, The first thing to be said about the story is that it cannot be a sheer invention. Muhammad must at some point have recited as part of the Qur'an the verses which were later rejected as satanic in origin. No Muslim could possibly have invented such a story about Muhammad, and no reputable Muslim scholar would have accepted it from a non-Muslim unless fully convinced of its truth. The Muslims of today tend to reject the story since it contradicts their idealized picture of Muhammad; but, on the other hand it could be taken as evidence that Muhammad was 'a human being like themselves' (415; etc.).

As the tension between the believers and the Meccan aristocrats increased, it became obvious to Muhammad that his mission was not succeeding in Mecca; he needed to seek a new base of operation.

Furthermore, in the year 619, he also lost his faithful wife, Khadija, and his staunch, but unbelieving protector, Abu Talib. After the passing of Abu Talib, Muhammad's safety was no longer guaranteed.

Another often repeated story about this latter part of the Meccan period is Muhammad's journey into heaven. According to Islamic tradition, one night the prophet was taken by the angel Gabriel from Mecca to Jerusalem (hence the importance of Jerusalem in Islam), and then through the seven heavens where he visited with all the previous prophets (Jesus was found in the second heaven, Moses in the sixth, and Abraham in the seventh.

The Koran teaches that there are seven heavens, one above the other, and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens. But modern astronomy teaches that, in reality, the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon. (Koran 67:3-5) "He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other... And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps..." (Koran 71:15-16) "Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens one above the other, and made the moon a light in their midst,and made the sun as a lamp?" (Koran 71:41:12) "And He completed the seven heavens in two days and inspired in each heaven its command; and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it guarded..." Muslim compliers say this should be considered poetic rather than scientific even though the Koran also claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven).


And finally it is asserted that he was taken into the presence of God where he received the specific procedures for the Islamic worship of daily prayers. Many contemporary Muslim authors consider this story a purely spiritual event.

The news of this fantastic mystical experience led to an increase in the hostility of the Meccan opposition, and even many of the faithful began to doubt their prophet's truthfulness. Muhammad's situation was getting more bleak, especially after several attempts to find a basis for support among some of the neighboring Arab towns and tribes failed. However, Muhammad soon found a refreshing relief from the representatives of the city of Yathrib, later called Medina. In the summer of A.D. 621, a dozen men from Medina who were participating in the annual pilgrimage to Ka'bah in Mecca, at the time a pagan shrine.

At the pilgrimage in the following year, a representative party of seventy-five people from Medina not only accepted the faith of Islam, but also invited Muhammad to their city and pledged an allegiance to defend their prophet as they would their own kin.

Shortly after this welcoming invitation Muhammad ordered his followers to make their way to Medina, a city about two hundred miles north of Mecca. The Muslims slipped away in small groups and about 150 of them emigrated. When the Meccan leaders were informed about the Muslim migration they plotted to kill Muhammad before he could leave the city to join his followers in Medina. But on the night of the planned assassination, the prophet and his close companion, Abu Bakr, successfully escaped from the city by taking the unfrequented routes to Medina and reached that city safely on September 24, A.D. 622.

This journey was a monumental turning point in the development of Islam. As the Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam points out, "The migration of
the Prophet. . . has been with justice taken by the Muslims as the starting point of their chronology, for it forms the first stage in a movement which in a short time became of significance in the history of the world." Quite unlike the Meccans, Muhammad was well received in Medina. Medina was different from Mecca on several accounts. From a religious perspective the residents of Medina were more inclined toward monotheism, due to the strong cultural influence of several well-established Jewish tribes in the area. It is also reported in Islamic tradition that the natives of Medina had heard from the Jews that a prophet was soon to appear in the region. The Medinans, therefore, were eager to accept Muhammad as the prophet who was to come and claim him for their own.

Social factors also played an important role in Muhammad's acceptance in Medina. It was a prosperous agricultural city; however, it was being dragged into a series of bloody feuds among its leading tribes. Therefore, "in inviting Muhammad to Medina, many of the Arabs there probably hoped that he would act as an arbiter among the opposing parties," and so bring back a period of peace and stability to the city.

Muhammad's ingenuity is clearly evident in this rapid progression of circumstances. Whereas in Mecca he was for the most part a purely eligious figure, in Medina he immediately became an able diplomat and

Muhammad's primary task consisted of consolidating the various Arab clans, the two Muslim parties of Muhajirun (the Meccan Muslims who emigrated with Muhammad), Ansar (the native Medinans who had embraced Islam), and even the influential Jewish tribes into one unified front. He was remarkably successful in unifylng the various factions by drawing a new constitution for the city of Medina, by which every group was obligated to coexist peacefully and support each other against foreign attacks. Also in this legal document Muhammad was acknowledged as the prophet, with the final authority to settle civil disputes.

Muhammad's success was somewhat offset by his failure to win the support of the three Jewish clans. At first it seems that the prophet made some important concessions in order to find favor with the Jews. For example, in conformity with Jewish custom, he prescribed that his disciples
turn in the direction of Jerusalem when praying, and adopted Ashura, the Jewish day of atonement, as a festival. Also, the introduction of the midday prayer at this time probably had its basis in Judaism. However, the Jews rejected Muhammad's message and his claim to prophethood, mainly due to the discrepancies between the Qur'anic revelations and their own sacred Scriptures.

Eventually Muhammad changed his policy toward the Jews. He altered the prayer direction from Jerusalem to the shrine of Mecca with the support of a Qur'anic revelation (2:142) and changed the time of fasting from the feast of Ashura to the whole month of Ramadan (the ninth lunar month in the Arabic calendar). The Qur'anic pronouncements also became more severe in their criticisms of the Jews (cf. 9:29; 98:6). It was at this time that the Qur'anic emphasis on Abraham as a central figure in the history of Islam became noticeable (cf. 4:125; 3:89; 6:89). This stands in contradistinction to Judaism's focus on Moses and Christianity's emphasis on Jesus. It also manifests a shift in Islamic theology toward a more Arabian character.

In addition to the important task of tribal unification, another serious challenge that Muhammad faced was finding some means of livelihood for the Meccan believers who had sacrificially left their city and belongings to follow their prophet to Medina. A few of the emigrants were able to carry on trade in the markets and some performed common labor. But the majority of them soon became involved, with Muhammad's sanction, in raiding the commercial Meccan caravans. The prophet himself led three such raids in the first year. Doubtless the purpose of these attacks was not only to obtain financial reward, but also to impress the Meccans with the growing power of the Muslim force.

The Qur'an also endorsed Muhammad's new policy by granting permission "[to fight], because They are wronged. . . . [They are] those who have been expelled from their homes In defiance of right, (for no cause) except that they say, 'Our Lord Is God"' (22:3940)." A later revelation commands, "Then fight in the cause Of God, and know that God
Heareth and knoweth all things" (2:244). And it seems that because of the
unwillingness of some believers to fight, the Qur'an introduced some new incentives to those who do (as opposed to "those who sit at home and receive no hurt") such as "special rewards" and entrance to Paradise (cf. 4:95-96; 3:194-95).

For various reasons all the Muslim raids that happened within the first eighteen months failed to procure any booty, and there was hardly any contact between the two parties. The first actual fighting between the Muslims and the pagan Quraysh occurred in January 624 when a small band of Muslims ambushed a Meccan caravan, killed one of its attendants, captured two, and safely brought back the plunder to Medina. This action caused a great uproar since it was believed that the Muslims, by Muhammad's instructions, had shed blood during the sacred month of Rajab. The pagan Arabs believed that four of the months of the year were sacred-an idea that is also sanctioned by the Qur'an (9:36).

Muhammad was at first hesitant to divide up the booty among his followers, but eventually a Qur'anic revelation ended the prophet's doubt: Fighting is prescribed For you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible That ye dislike a thing Which is good for you . . . But God knoweth, And ye know not. They ask thee Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); But graver is it In the sight of God To prevent access To the path of God, To deny Him, To prevent access To the Sacred Mosque, And drive out its members." Tumult and oppression Are worse than slaughter (2:21&17).

THE BATTLE OF BADR
The prospect of gaining more booty from the enemy boosted the Muslim
morale so that "for his next expedition Muhammad was able to collect
300 men, at least a hundred more than on any previous occasion." Muhammad himself led this campaign after receiving a report that a large caravan, which had all the Meccan merchants concerned for its safe return and was later said to be worth fifty thousand dinars, was heading back to Mecca.

The man in charge of the caravan was the great Meccan leader, Abu Sufyan. Having realized the danger that lay ahead for his merchandise, he sent a timely request to Mecca for backup troops. The Meccans responded immediately and sent an army of about 950 fighting men to confront the Muslim attack. From the size of the force we can assume that the Meccans were thinking of so intimidating Muhammad that he would put an end to his raiding of caravans in the future. In March 624, in a place called Badr, the two forces met. The Muslims were outnumbered three to one. Because of Muhammad's superior military strategy and his followers' zeal in fighting for the cause of Islam, however, he overpowered the overconfident Meccan leadership; the Muslim army dealt a serious blow to their enemies. Over the course of the battle about forty-five men were killed, including some of the leading men of Mecca and seventy were taken prisoner; the Muslims lost only fourteen people.

Muhammad interpreted the victory at Badr as a definite sign of God's vindication of his prophethood (just as God had marvelously delivered prophets before him in vindication of their message). The prophet was informed that his triumph was "a day of decision" and that it was God himself and his angels who had fought on the Muslims' side. "It is not ye who Slew them; it was God" (8: 17). And the believers were inspired by the verse, "0 Apostle! rouse the Believers To the fight. If there are Twenty
amongst you . . . They will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, They will
vanquish a thousand Of the unbelievers'' (8:65).

Immediately following Badr, Muhammad's prestige greatly increased. Relying on his newly elevated status, Muhammad launched the systematic elimination of his opponents in Medina, which in Muhammad's mind had always posed a real threat to the stability of the Islamic community. This extermination involved the assassination of some poets who had satirized the prophet in verse, and also the expulsion of one of the three Jewish tribes from Medina. During this period Muhammad began the long series of multiple marriages that further strengthened his position as the head of the community.

THE BATTLE OF UHUD
The Meccans were well aware of their humiliating defeat, and once again under the leadership of Abu Sufyan, prepared themselves for I another confrontation with the Muslim forces. Exactly one year after Badr, the two armies met again in the vicinity of Medina, near the mountain of Uhud. Muhammad's supporters were outnumbered three to one, with the Meccans having three thousand men against one thousand Muslims.

Despite the numerical superiority of the Meccans, at first the battle went in favor of the Muslims and the Quraysh began to flee. However, the tides were quickly turned when the Muslim archers abandoned their positions, against Muhammad's expressed orders, and rushed forward to share in the plunder. The Meccan cavalry took advantage of this opportunity to attack the Muslims from the rear. Muslims started to run in all directions.

Further confusion was created when'the false rumor spread in the camp that the enemy had killed the prophet. But Muhammad and the bulk of his force eventually withdrew to a secure position, and the Meccans, rejoicing in their victory, set out for home.

Muhammad's defeat struck a psychological blow to his prestige in the region. The "hypocrites" (munafeqoon), Muhammad's opponents in Medina, along with the Jewish antagonists made no secret of their delight at Muhammad's misfortunes. Several Muslim parties were ambushed and killed by Muhammad's enemies, and in one case a bedouin tribe even dared to defy the prophet's authority by massacring forty Muslim missionaries.

Despite these setbacks Muhammad continued his efforts to strengthen his position. He led or authorized more attacks on the neighboring tribes "which seems to have aimed at extending his own alliances and at preventing others from joining his enemies." Also, barely one year after defeat at Uhud, Muhammad expelled the second Jewish tribe from
Medina and confiscated all their properties. The plunder left for the Muslims was so much that Haykal, in his biography of Muhammad, writes,
"this prize was greater than anything the Muslims had so far seized."

After their victory in Uhud, the Meccans realized that they needed to crush Muhammad's growing power once and for all. In the spring 627, Abu Sufyan led a great Arab confederacy of ten thousand men against the Muslims of Medina. This time Muhammad decided to harvest the crop and remain within the city, and-as a tradition states-based upon the advice of a Persian disciple, the Muslims dug a ditch in front of the unprotected parts of their city. The Meccans surrounded Medina for about two weeks. But after several failures to cross the trench, the break up of their coalition by Muhammad's secret negotiations with various tribes, and unfavorable weather conditions, the besiegers lost their determination and began to withdraw.

Muhammad's position was greatly strengthened after this silent victory. Shortly after the siege, Muhammad attacked the last Jewish tribe of Medina based on the suspicion that they had plotted with the Meccan enemies against Muslims. Unlike the previous two Jewish tribes that had been simply expelled from the city, this time all the men of the tribe were put to death and the women and children were sold into slavery.

Regarding this merciless verdict, Tor Andrae writes: One must see Mohammad's cruelty toward the Jews against the background of the fact that their scorn and rejection was the greatest disappointment of his life, and for a time they threatened completely to destroy his prophetic authority. For him, therefore, it was a fixed axiom that the Jews were the sworn enemies of Allah and His revelation. Any mercy toward them was out of the question.

THE CONQUEST OF MECCA
Muhammad's power for the next two years was quickly on the rise. The prophet led many more successful campaigns that brought about greater financial benefits to his community. Consequently, more people were steadily joining the fold of Islam. Meanwhile the military and economic strength of Mecca was in rapid decline. Furthermore, several of their leading men had defected and joined Muhammad's ranks. In March 628 the Meccans made a peace treaty (the treaty of Hudaybiah) with Muhammad that clearly indicated they could no longer think of Muhammad as a rebellious fugitive but as an opponent of equal rank.

Over a year after the peace treaty, an attack of Meccan allies on Muhammad's allies caused the treaty to be nullified. Taking full advantage of this breach of the covenant, in January 630 Muhammad with an army of ten thousand men invaded his beloved city of Mecca with virtually no resistance. He immediately cleansed the Kaabah of its idols and, with only a few exceptions, promised a general pardon to all the leaders of Mecca and even gave each one of the prominent Meccans, including Abu Sufyan, generous gifts and rewards for their surrender.

Thus he not only conquered his long-time enemies but also won their respect and admiration. As Andrae claims, "it is rarely that a victor has exploited his victory with greater self-restraint and forbearance than did Mohammed."

MUHAMMAD'S FINAL YEARS
After Mecca surrendered to Muhammad, a large number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula followed suit and professed their allegiance to the prophet; others submitted after being defeated by the Muslim armies. As a general rule, the heathen tribes were obligated to denounce paganism and profess Islam, whereas Christians and Jews could practice their own faith but had to pay tributes and taxes. It is certainly one of Muhammad's greatest accomplishments that he was able to incorporate all the many Arab tribes into one unified and powerful nation under the banner of Islam. In March 632 Muhammad personally led the Islamic pilgrimage to
Mecca and delivered his farewell address to tens of thousands of his followers. Three months later in June 632, at the age of sixty-three, the
prophet of Islam died a sudden but natural death.

MUHAMMAD'S PLACE IN ISLAM
"Muslims will allow attacks on Allah: there are atheists and atheistic publications, and rationalistic societies; but to disparage Muhammad will provoke from even the most 'liberal' sections of the community a fanaticism of blazing vehemence. Wilfred Cantwell Smith's insightful analysis of the deep and widespread veneration that exists in Muslim society for their prophet is as true today as when he wrote it in 1946.

From the judgment of Ibn Tayrniyya (the fourteenth-century Muslim theologian claiming that anyone defaming the prophet must be executed without any possibility for repentance). A yatollah Khomeini's fatwa
(a religious legal judgment) for the extermination of the British author Salmon Rushdie, we see a vivid illustration of the Muslim world's fanatical love for Muhammad.

In two powerful images, Iqbal, the greatest twentieth-century Muslim thinker of India (d. 1938), summed up the feeling of millions of Muslims in this way: "Love of the Prophet runs like blood in the veins of his community." And "You can deny God, but you cannot deny the Prophet!"

The adoration for the prophet became a fundamental factor not only in Islamic art and literature, but also in shaping the many details of Muslim life and civilization soon after Muhammad's death. Encouraged by the Qur'anic injunction found in 33:21, "Ye have indeed In the Apostle of God A beautiful pattern (of conduct) For any one whose hope is In God and the Final Day" (also 4:80; 7: 157; 14:44). The reports of Muhammad's sayings (hadith) and actions (sunnah) were tirelessly collected by subsequent generations. Even though these hadiths were never regarded as equal to the Qur'an, they were viewed as an uninspired record of inspired words and actions. Eventually Muslim theologians of the second and third centuries of the Islamic era, after much examination of the texts
(matn) of these hadiths and their chains of narrators (isnads), put it in the
book forms that we have today.

While among all Muslims the Qur'an is the only sacred and inspired book, nevertheless, the hadiths of the prophet are also foundational because of all the minute details that they. provide regarding almost every aspect of Muslim life and practice. Ajijola writes, "(Muhammad's) life became a source of inspiration to his followers. Even minute acts and deeds of him have been recorded by his companions and contemporaries for the benefit of mankind." The Muslim author, Kateregga, writes:
The Hadith is not a Holy Book (revelation) as the Qur'an and the previous Scriptures. However, to the Muslims the importance of Hadith ranks only second to the Holy Qur'an. The Hudith is complementary to the Qur'an. It helps to explain and clanfy the Holy Qur'an and to present the Qur'an in a more practical form. . . . As Muslims, our knowledge of Islam would be incomplete and shaky if we did not study and follow the Hadith. Similarly an outsider cannot understand Islam if he ignores the Hudith.'

The greatest Muslim theologian of all time, Al-Ghazali (d. A.D. 11 111, in his classical Zhya ulum ad-din (Revival of Religious Sciences), explained the importance of observing the prophet's tradition in this way:

"Know that the key to happiness is to follow the sunna [Muhammad's actions] and to imitate the Messenger of God in all his coming and going, his movement and rest, in his way of eating, his attitude, his sleep and his talk. . . . God has said: "What the messenger has brought-accept it, and what he has prohibited-refrain from it!" (59:7). That means, you have to sit while putting on trousers, and to stand when winding a turban, and to
begin with the right foot when putting on shoes."

An interesting example of Muslim piety in following the prophetic tradition is found in Sayyid Ahmad Khan, the nineteenth-century Indian reformer, who emphatically believed that it was better not to eat mangoes since the prophet had never touched this favorite fruit of India. Also it is said that the great mystic Bayezid Bistami did not eat watermelons for sixty years because he could not establish how Muhammad would have cut melons!

Of course these are radical examples of emulating the prophet's lifestyle. Even though the majority of pious Muslims do not go to such extremes, they do try their best to follow Muhammad's example in many details of their daily living. Schimmel, a prominent scholar on Islam at Harvard University, observes the influence of prophetic tradition on unifying the Islamic culture:

"It is this ideal of the imitatio Muhamrnadi [imitation of Muhammad] that
has provided Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia with such a uniformity
of action: wherever one may be, one knows how to behave when entering
a house, which formulas of greeting to employ, what to avoid in good company, how to eat, and how to travel. For centuries Muslim children have been brought up in these ways."

The prophetic tradition has not only greatly influenced every detail of the life of the individual believer, but it has also been the foundation of Islamic law and social government. Islamic law, or shari'a, is based on the Qur'an, the hadith, ijma' (the consensus of the community), and qiyas, the application of analogical reasoning to the other three sources for the deduction of new rules. There are four established systematized schools of law in Sunni Islam, "so that today most Sunni Muslims will be found following the madhab (system) of one of these four, ordering their religious and community life according to the prescriptions worked out by
the jurists of one of these schools."

In order to avoid stereotyping the Muslim world, it is necessary to note here that even though Islamic sunna and shari'a (Islamic civil law) play a fundamental role in the cultures of Muslim countries, much of the traditional and religious mores have been broken down in the past century
due to the massive influence of Western culture on these lands. For example, in many instances reformist groups within Islam are rejecting a strict reliance on prophetic hadith. Also, one can find a great deal of nominal Muslims in Islamic countries whose lifestyles are not in accordance with guidelines set by the Qur'an and the prophet. The same can be said of governmental laws that in many ways follow the more democratic and Western patterns of government as opposed to the strict obedience of Islamic Shari'a.

Muslims' great respect for Muhammad notwithstanding, it is very important to point out that standard Islamic theology in no way considers him divine. As Schimmel accurately warns, "Neither in theological nor in phenomenological terms can Muhammad be likened to the Christ of Christianity-hence the Muslims' aversion to the term 'Muhammadans,' which seems to them to imply a false parallel to the concept of Christians." As the second part of Islamic confession makes clear, Islam teaches that Muhammad is only the prophet of God.

However, having said this we need to point out that there are diverse, and sometimes contradictory, attitudes held by various Muslim groups regarding the importance of the person of Muhammad. These attitudes range from considering him as merely an upright human being who became the recipient of divine revelation, to a semidivine and almost eternal being.

According to the Qur'anic evidence and orthodox Islam, Muhammad was only a human being whom God chose to be the final messenger to humankind, and who was used as a means to introduce the purest and the most perfect religion of Islam to the world. "Every previous prophet of God was sent to a particular people, but Muhammad was sent to all human beings of the world until Doomsday." We read, "Say: 'I tell you not That with me Are the Treasures of God, Nor do I know What is hidden, Nor do I tell you I am An angel. I but follow What is revealed to. Schimmel's analysis of the current situation in the Middle East is at "awareness of the danger that now confronts Islamic tradition has certainly contributed to the sudden growth of Muslim fundamentalism that came as such a surprise to the unprepared Western world."

The Muslims worship God alone. Muhammad was only a mortal being
commissioned by God to teach the word of God and lead an exemplary life. He stands in history as the best model for man in piety and perfection. He is a living proof of what man can be and of what he can accomplish in the realm of excellence and virtue. Moreover, the Muslims do not believe that Islam was founded by Muhammad, although it was restored by him in the last stage of religious evolution.

Admitting Muhammad is only human is no embarrassment for orthodox
Islam because of its strict monotheism. But as mentioned earlier, according to orthodox Islam, prophethood is the height of God's activity in the world, and since with Muhammad God closed the office of prophethood this was the greatest honor that God could bestow on a human being. For Muslims, therefore, Muhammad is the last and the greatest of all prophets (khatam al-anbiya).

Besides the orthodox understanding of Muhammad's role as merely a messenger, though the greatest of all prophets, popular Islam soon developed other beliefs about its prophet that went beyond the Qur'anic boundaries. One important deviation was the belief in Muhammad as an intercessor for his community before God.

The Qur'an rejects the possibility of intercession on the Day of Judgment (2:48,254). But in 2:255, it is stated that no one can intercede with God "except As He (God) permitteth." Therefore, many Muslims understood that this special permission for intercession (shafa'ah) was certainly granted to Muhammad whom the Qur'an had called a mercy to
humankind. In addition to this possible interpretation of the Qur'an, many hadiths were also produced in early Islam in support of this doctrine. One popular badition describes the last day in which all humankind goes from one prophet to the next to ask for intercession. All prophets from Adam to
Jesus refuse to accept this role because of their unworthiness. But eventually Muhammad accepts the role as intercessor, for he can successfully lead his community into Paradise.

Thousands of beautiful Islamic poems and moving prayers speak of the Muslims' hope for Muhammad's intercession for their salvation. For example, Ibn Khaldun, the great North African philosopher, asked the prophet Muhammad, "Grant me by your intercession, for which I hope, a beautiful page instead of my ugly sins!" Another Muslim thinker exhorted his hearers by these words: "If a man brings on the Day of Resurrection as many good works as those of all the people in the world and does not bring with them the calling down of blessing on the Prephet, his good works are returned to him, unacceptable." The Muslim poet Tilimsani invoked Muhammad thus: "I have sins, abundant-but perhaps your intercession may save me from Hellfire." And the greatest lyrical poet of Urdu, Mir Taqi Mir, writes, "Why do you worry, O Mir, thinking of your black book? The person of the Seal of the Prophets is a guarantee for your salvation.

Closely related to the Muslims' hope for Muhammad's intercession and blessing is the universal Islamic formula of blessing the prophet, "God bless him and give him peace." (The Shi'ite version also asks for blessing on Muhammad's family.) This practice finds its basis in the Qur'an itself, which claims, "God and His Angels Send blessings on the Prophet: 0 ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, And salute him With all respect" (33:56). Also, several hadiths explain the advantages of often repeating this blessing on Muhammad. One hadith promises that for every blessing called on the prophet, God will return that blessing ten times. Another hadith encourages believers to bless the prophet often on Fridays since the greetings are put before him on that day.

Another popular tendency among some Muslims, which is of course condemned by orthodox Islam, is the veneration of Muhammad to the extent of almost deifying him. Once again there is an abundance of alleged hadiths that support this position. One hadith speaks of Muhammad's preexistence, and another states that he was the purpose of God's creation of the universe. "I was prophet when Adam was still between clay and water." "Had it not been for thee I (God) had not created the One popular hadith among the Iranian Muslims has God saying, "I am an Ahmad without 'm'." Ahmad is another name for Muhammad.

This process of Muhammad's dehumanization took an additional turn in the popular doctrine of Nur-i-Muhammadi, or the Light of Muhammad. According to many Islamic books of tradition God first created the light of Muhammad and from that light he later proceeded to make the rest of creation.52 So Muhammad was not only the goal and reason for all creation but also the material cause of creation. It is also this light of Muhammad that each prophet was able to manifest to a certain degree.

One further step in exalting the Prophet was to also find him ninetynine most noble names. Nazir-Ali, a perceptive scholar on Islam, writes that a certain popular devotional book "contains a list of 201 names of Muhammad (as against ninety-nine for God!). Many of the names are identical to certain divine names. . . . Moreover names of God are given just before the names of the Prophet, almost to encourage comparison!" Schimmel writes that quite early in Islam even the ninety-nine names for the prophet seemed insufficient; "soon two hundred names were enumerated, later even a thousand. Popular belief even holds that the Prophet is called a special name by each type of creature."

Concerning Muhammad's position in popular Islam, Nazir-Ali observes:
The extent of this veneration in modern Pakistani society is astonishing.
The society nominally adheres to Sunni orthodoxy. But Muhammad-veneration is projected through the mass media, school books and cultural
events all of which contribute to the deification of the Arabian Prophet. The
following examples illustrate this point: "Though my link with the Divinity
of God be severed, May my hand never let go of the hem of the Chosen One (i.e. Muhammad)." Muhammad is often given titles like "Savior of the World" and "Lord of the Universe."

In conclusion it is important to point out that despite the un-Qur'anic exalted position of Muhammad in popular Islamic piety, his position in Islamic theology is not comparable to the person of Christ in Christian theology. The ultimate foundation of Islam is not the person of Muhammad, but rather the Qur'an, the uncreated and eternal Word of God. As Schimmel reminds us: "Even though Muhammad was elevated to luminous heights and reached a position comparable, in certain ways, to that of Logos in Christian theology, yet even as the Perfect Man he remained abduhu, God's servant and His creature the most beloved of His creatures, to be sure. . . the idea of an incarnation in the Christian sense was and is absolutely impossible in the Islamic tradition. . . . The axis of Islam is not the person of the Prophet but rather the Word of God, as revealed through him and laid down in the Koran. So in order to properly understand Islam, it is necessary to understand the Qur'an.

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by se11 » July 11th, 2005, 8:11 pm

D33Q wrote:on the 9 year old thing, im not saying nothin cuase i got a lotta respect fo him and not gon start sayin bad stuff bout him
so you got respect for a guy who mighta been tappin a 9 year old, no biggie

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 12th, 2005, 11:25 am

My post was scholarly and I did not seek to paint him in a negative light but just point out some historical facts and interpretation regarding his life. I'll probably revisit this at a later date and bring some real cited biographical info on what you guys are talking about. Peace.

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Unread post by Mraka » July 14th, 2005, 2:28 pm

post the link; not always copy whole sites.tired of scrolling.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 14th, 2005, 9:37 pm

There is no link. That particular post appears on no internet site. And God loves Muslims and want them to know him. Peace.

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Unread post by PlayaLarga » July 17th, 2005, 1:23 pm

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 17th, 2005, 1:50 pm

It's very difficult for those who have wholeheartedly been raised or adopted Islam to come to terms with the facts. But coming to terms with the facts is necessary if they are to see the truth. The site you posted makes light of the matter but nevertheless it is true.

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Unread post by Sentenza » July 18th, 2005, 5:18 am

it is difficult to discuss this issue, cause no Muslim would even consider talkin about Muhammed and having a look at his life in detail, cause they consider everything he did divine i guess.
But in both religions, christianity and Islam, its the same.
People have twisted the original story of their "founders" in order to make it fit into their own philosophy.
Maybe Muhammed had a 6 year old wife, maybe not.
Maybe Jesus lived in celibacy, maybe not.
The most important thing to me is that whichever religion you follow do it without forcing others to follow you. If you are convinvincing they will follow you automatically.
No matter how much you have read or experienced, we are all the same human beings and at last NO one of us KNOWS which perception of god is the true.
we can only believe but not know. only god knows. and from this perspective i think it is most important, to live for peace and the best for upcoming generations to develope and elevate humanity.

I am sure Muhammed was no perfect individual and if he was pedophil, which i do not know, thats bad. But that says nothing about the religion or the holy book of Islam.
If Jesus lived in celibacy (which i strongly doubt) that might indicate that he was gay because it was very uncommon for Jewish priests(Rabbins) to live in celibacy at that time. No offense intended. I doubt both theories.
Just some thoughts.

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Re: Muhammed of Islam

Unread post by Anonymous20 » July 18th, 2005, 10:02 pm

se11 wrote:
D33Q wrote:on the 9 year old thing, im not saying nothin cuase i got a lotta respect fo him and not gon start sayin bad stuff bout him
so you got respect for a guy who mighta been tappin a 9 year old, no biggie
this aint funny, but I it is not any doubt that he took Aiisha at 6 years old. He even has the approval of her father, because Muhammed was so respected by many Arabs after they won many battles. I just wonder if this was normal back then or if it was ever normal in any society to take a 6 year old as a wife.

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Unread post by Dr. Gonzo » July 18th, 2005, 10:26 pm

He has a pedophile plain and simple.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

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Unread post by willihen » July 19th, 2005, 7:07 am

and a warlord. No Peaceful man Here. Hey ya think maybe.. just maybe this is why they are are so many muslims killing...
Maybe just maybe it roots go back to Mohammed and all their damn killing back in the 600s.

Yeah pray to that guy.

OH no... I guess all the muslims are going to track me down and put
a *&%$#@$ fatwa on my ass.


I don't mean to change the topic....You guys get back on track. I'll help you...here
PEDOPHILE

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Unread post by Sentenza » July 19th, 2005, 8:28 am

muslims dont pray to that guy, they pray to allah....big difference.
Islam and christianity are equally violent and have a brutal history.
There have been many pedophile cardinals, monks and preachers in christianity for all the time. People in top positions.
That doesnt make the whole religion bad.
Muslims and Christians both are in no position to point the finger on each other cause both have many many mislead followers unfortunately.

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Unread post by willihen » July 19th, 2005, 9:26 am

Sentenza wrote:muslims dont pray to that guy, they pray to allah....big difference.
Islam and christianity are equally violent and have a brutal history.
There have been many pedophile cardinals, monks and preachers in christianity for all the time. People in top positions.
That doesnt make the whole religion bad.
Muslims and Christians both are in no position to point the finger on each other cause both have many many mislead followers unfortunately.
Yes HISTORY is the word there. Christians have had a brutal past. But at least we are trying to move forward.
Muslims are not. Yeah you may say its only the extremists its not the religion. Then why the hell are there muslims all over the world killing in the name of their F&*^%*# religion.
And where are the "peaceful" muslims why aren't they protesting worldwide, where are their leaders condemning acts. It does happen.
But if I were muslim I would be out spreading the word of Peace and at the same time Cleaning house on the so called violent muslims.

You can Say I'm ignorant and Stupid, close minded.

I say ISLAM is a VIOLENT RELIGION and is doing nothing to clean its image other than saying. Oh its just some muslims.
Yeah just some f*&%*^# muslims in AFRICA KILLING CHRISTIANS,
muslims in Philopenes, Indonesia, Asia and of course the middle east.
That about covers the whole goddamn world.

Sorry, Sentenza I respect you, I just get alittle steamed and maybe out of control on this subject.

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Unread post by Sentenza » July 19th, 2005, 10:57 am

No problem man, you have the right on any opinion you want. It spices up the discussion :D

Here are some of them speaking up(i already posted this somewhere else):

CAIRO, July 7, 2005 – The deadly attacks that rocked London earlier Thursday, July 7, drew condemnation from scholars, officials and even individuals from across the Muslim world.

"We were dumbfounded by the grave news of the London bombings which killed tens and wounded hundreds of innocent people who committed no crime," prominent scholar Yusuf Al-Qaradawi told IslamOnline.net.

At least 37 people were killed and hundreds others wounded when four blasts ripped through London during rush hour on Thursday.

Qaradawi stressed that these "black actions" run counter to the teachings of Islam which forbids the killing of civilians.

"Even at the time of war when state armies battle face to face, it is not permissible to kill women, children, elders, priests, farmers and merchants; people we nowadays call civilians."

The renowned scholar offered his heartfelt condolences to the families of the victims and London Mayor Ken Livingstone, whom Qaradawi praised as "a man of justice who always defends Arab and Muslim causes.

Criminals

"Those responsible for London attacks are criminals who do not represent Islam or even truly understand (its message)," Tantawi told IOL.

Al-Azhar Grand Imam Sheikh Mohammad Sayyed Tantawi also denounced the bombings.

"Those responsible for London attacks are criminals who do not represent Islam or even truly understand (its message)," he told IOL.

Tantawi, who heads the highest seat of learning in the Sunni world, denounced the killing of civilians, including women and children, "without differentiating between combatants and non-combatants."

On the possibility that the attacks were an attempt to press British Prime Minister Tony Blair to withdraw his troops from occupied Iraq, Tantawi said: "This is illogical and cannot be the motive for killing innocent civilians."

Leading Lebanese Shiite scholar Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah voiced outrage, reported Reuters.

"These crimes are not accepted by any religion. It is a barbarism wholly rejected by Islam," he said.

Barbarism

"Targeting civilians in their transport means and lives is denounced and rejected," said Abu Marzouk, a leading Hamas figure.

The attacks drew rebuke from senior officials in several Muslim countries as well as two leading resistance groups.

In a message to Blair, Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad condemned "these detested acts".

President Emile Lahoud said his country "shares with the British their pain".

Saudi Social Affairs Minister Abdulmohsen Al-Akkas said his country, battling a two-year wave of attacks by Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network, knew what London was suffering.

"We understand. Since May 2003 we have been experiencing the horrors of terrorist acts," said Akkas, who was visiting London.

"The use of violence to achieve aims is condemned," Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said.

Egypt's Foreign Trade and Industry Minister Rachid Mohamed Rachid said: "It is important to be brave in facing up to the scourge of terrorism."

Morocco said the "heinous attacks" underlined the need for united international action against those who perpetrated them.

The Palestinian and Lebanese resistance groups Hamas and Hezbollah joined the condemnation chorus.

"Targeting civilians in their transport means and lives is denounced and rejected," Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy chief of Hamas's political bureau, told Reuters in Damascus.

A Hezbollah statement on the blasts denounced attacks on civilians, citing humanitarian, moral and religious grounds.

Popular Condemnation

Muslims interviewed by Reuters in several countries also condemned the London explosions.

"I really hope this is not the doing of an Arab or a Muslim because our values are 100 percent against this devilish crime," said Syrian businessman Majed Ali.

"If my own brother had done this, I would disown him," he said.

"Those responsible for this have no feelings or humanity," said Hassan Bannona, a 47-year-old Saudi aviation worker.

"We feel for the victims as we have also been attacked in this way."

Yemeni doorman Aref al-Haymi, 28, said the bombings showed criminals were everywhere.

"Everyone must cooperate to end this terrorism instead of accusing only Muslims and Arabs."

Blair said earlier that the perpetrators of the London attacks acted "in the name of Islam".

He stressed, however, that "the vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims here and abroad are decent and law abiding people who abhor terrorism every bit as much as we do."

The Muslim minority in Britain vehemently denounced the blasts and offered all possible assistance in helping the emergency services.

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Unread post by Sentenza » July 19th, 2005, 11:04 am

willihen wrote:
Sentenza wrote:muslims dont pray to that guy, they pray to allah....big difference.
Islam and christianity are equally violent and have a brutal history.
There have been many pedophile cardinals, monks and preachers in christianity for all the time. People in top positions.
That doesnt make the whole religion bad.
Muslims and Christians both are in no position to point the finger on each other cause both have many many mislead followers unfortunately.
Yes HISTORY is the word there. Christians have had a brutal past. But at least we are trying to move forward.
Muslims are not. Yeah you may say its only the extremists its not the religion. Then why the hell are there muslims all over the world killing in the name of their F&*^%*# religion.
And where are the "peaceful" muslims why aren't they protesting worldwide, where are their leaders condemning acts. It does happen.
But if I were muslim I would be out spreading the word of Peace and at the same time Cleaning house on the so called violent muslims.

You can Say I'm ignorant and Stupid, close minded.

I say ISLAM is a VIOLENT RELIGION and is doing nothing to clean its image other than saying. Oh its just some muslims.
Yeah just some f*&%*^# muslims in AFRICA KILLING CHRISTIANS,
muslims in Philopenes, Indonesia, Asia and of course the middle east.
That about covers the whole goddamn world.

Sorry, Sentenza I respect you, I just get alittle steamed and maybe out of control on this subject.
if the majority of the muslims around the world would be violent that would mean that the better part of ca. 1.2 billion muslims in the world would be violent.
This would be a 3rd world war scenario and not the scenario it is today.

But i am not downatlking it. Globalization has created a dangerous breed of mislead extremist muslims which are acting crazy these days.
And they have the ctechnology to connect worldwide, which is another threat.
Another problem is that the public is more likely to hear about the bad people rather than the righteous ones, cause the bad ones make much more noise.
Its always like that dont you think?

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Unread post by willihen » July 19th, 2005, 11:11 am

Good stuff, Sentenza.

I still believe there is something in basic Islamic beliefs that allows or influences these people to do what they do.

No other religion has extremists of this magnitude.

That is a fact.

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Unread post by Cold Bear » July 19th, 2005, 12:47 pm

The religious fervor shown by most Shiites during the days of Ashura is unmatched, no doubt. This celebration is to remember the death of Hossein, a respected Imam. He rode out into the desert to fight a cornerstone battle with the Caliph with nothing but 50 women and children. He knew he would be massacred, but his faith in Allah and his own resolve was strong and he wanted to make an impression, so he brought women and children to make the massacre more powerful. During Ashura, Shiites remember Hossein's death when they walk through the streets with chains, whipping themselves until they bleed all over, to remember the immense pain of dying a certain death, and the glory of martyrdom.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 19th, 2005, 8:30 pm

willihen wrote:Good stuff, Sentenza.

I still believe there is something in basic Islamic beliefs that allows or influences these people to do what they do.

No other religion has extremists of this magnitude.

That is a fact.
Actually it is not a fact. Many people of various religions have shown the same fervor, if not far more, in different times and different places. Geesh where should I start educating you about this. So many choices for me to choose from.

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Unread post by willihen » July 19th, 2005, 8:56 pm

Kemosave wrote:
willihen wrote:Good stuff, Sentenza.

I still believe there is something in basic Islamic beliefs that allows or influences these people to do what they do.

No other religion has extremists of this magnitude.

That is a fact.
Actually it is not a fact. Many people of various religions have shown the same fervor, if not far more, in different times and different places. Geesh where should I start educating you about this. So many choices for me to choose from.
Alright Kemosave, lets hear it my friend.

"dirka dirka jihad jihad mohammed"

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 19th, 2005, 9:41 pm

The fervent religion of ancient Greece led to the conquering of almost the entire known world in its day. The fervor was so great they would level cities and towns that were misaligned with the gods of their religion.

These are people who believed very much in the gods of their religion and it’s no accident that one of Alexander’s most important influences in his life, and there’s no argument about this, was his reading of the Iliad, and so to him, the gods of the Iliad are Alexander’s gods.

Alexander eventually demanded to be worshiped as a God (same as Muhammad demanded all the conquered people to worship Allah or die after the conquest of Mecca [628-630]) but that's a bit different for sure I'm just bringing it into the discussion in case you didn't know that.

The religious fervor of the ancient Greeks was very intense and on the same level as the modern Muslims.

But that is just one of many many historical examples.

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Unread post by willihen » July 20th, 2005, 5:46 am

Kemosave wrote:The fervent religion of ancient Greece led to the conquering of almost the entire known world in its day. The fervor was so great they would level cities and towns that were misaligned with the gods of their religion.

These are people who believed very much in the gods of their religion and it’s no accident that one of Alexander’s most important influences in his life, and there’s no argument about this, was his reading of the Iliad, and so to him, the gods of the Iliad are Alexander’s gods.

Alexander eventually demanded to be worshiped as a God (same as Muhammad demanded all the conquered people to worship Allah or die after the conquest of Mecca [628-630]) but that's a bit different for sure I'm just bringing it into the discussion in case you didn't know that.

The religious fervor of the ancient Greeks was very intense and on the same level as the modern Muslims.

But that is just one of many many historical examples.
I'm not that worried about the history of religions. Sure we could bring up the crusades and the inquisition but what about today. I don't see that as relevant
That was then...
No. The fact is, and no one can debate this issue. Islam today has more extremist groups and violence in the name of religion than any other.

Islam was based on Violence and war and continues to thrive on it. By a man Who through all my knowledge was a warlord.

The most important thing to remember is
"dirka dirka jihad jihad mohammed."

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Unread post by Cold Bear » July 20th, 2005, 7:19 am

I was reading a book on the world's religions... In the Islam chapter they depict the environment Islam sprouted out of. If you think Islam is violent, the polytheistic tribal religions before Islam created an environment 10 X worse.

The author attributes a lot of the violence, deadliness, etc. that is a stereotype of Islam to the actual physical landcape of the desert. There were ways that it tied into everyday life that made violence and killing a necessity.

Your characterization of Islam thriving on some kind of blood lust is a little paranoid though. Sounds like your scared or never met any Muslims in your life.

I can't believe you would try to characterize Islam as more violent that Christianity. Christianity hands are COVERED with blood. Christians began two world wars, dropped an atomic bomb on non-Christians (no matter how much you try to take religion out of this exchange it was still there), mass murder of Native Americans, slavery.

Let me ask you this, have you ever seen TORTURE DEVICES used in the Dark Ages or Middle Ages. Talk about barbaric and sick shit. And all in the name of upholding 'God's law's'.

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Unread post by willihen » July 20th, 2005, 7:32 am

Cold Bear wrote:I was reading a book on the world's religions... In the Islam chapter they depict the environment Islam sprouted out of. If you think Islam is violent, the polytheistic tribal religions before Islam created an environment 10 X worse.

The author attributes a lot of the violence, deadliness, etc. that is a stereotype of Islam to the actual physical landcape of the desert. There were ways that it tied into everyday life that made violence and killing a necessity.

Your characterization of Islam thriving on some kind of blood lust is a little paranoid though. Sounds like your scared or never met any Muslims in your life.

I can't believe you would try to characterize Islam as more violent that Christianity. Christianity hands are COVERED with blood. Christians began two world wars, dropped an atomic bomb on non-Christians (no matter how much you try to take religion out of this exchange it was still there), mass murder of Native Americans, slavery.

Let me ask you this, have you ever seen TORTURE DEVICES used in the Dark Ages or Middle Ages. Talk about barbaric and sick shit. And all in the name of upholding 'God's law's'.
Is everyone on this forum stupid.
What is going on right now? muslims every fucking day killing in the name of their religion.
What the hell are you talking about. Your scewing the goddamn topic.
you idiot.

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Unread post by Cold Bear » July 20th, 2005, 7:40 am

Oh, My bad! I forgot it's ONLY muslims killing in the world today! My bad!

How many civilians died in Iraq? Who killed them?

Look at you calling names like a little bitch. Why don't you have a civil debate. I was introducing points which I guess were good since you tripped out.

And by the way, the first part of the post was discussing a POSSIBLE REASON for the stressing of violence in Islam. You're the complete idiot of the two of us, and it's showing like a motherfucker.

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Unread post by willihen » July 20th, 2005, 7:42 am

Cold Bear wrote:Oh, My bad! I forgot it's ONLY muslims killing in the world today! My bad!

How many civilians died in Iraq? Who killed them?

Look at you calling names like a little bitch. Why don't you have a civil debate. I was introducing points which I guess were good since you tripped out.
Yeah...Your bad, Bitch

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Unread post by Cold Bear » July 20th, 2005, 7:48 am

I was partially backing up what you were saying but your inbred ass couldnt' figure it out. Only looking at the parts that disagree with you. What a idiot.

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