People who the worship the Devil

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
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DiaBo
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People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » September 1st, 2004, 5:38 pm

I know one homie who go to my school he got a homie who live in his Hood they both dawgs he told us his homie worship the devil i ask him if i shoot at his homie or kill him it will come back on me having anybody got friends who worship the devil or anything bad happen to the person that came back on them

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Kemosave » September 2nd, 2004, 3:13 pm

If he thinks worshipping a damned fallen angel rather than the holy Creator is a good move for him on the chess board of eternity than he deserves what comes next. Tell him if he survives and if he is left with the ability to recant the decision that royally screwed up his life, we'll take him. We have some experience with the matter. Peace.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » September 2nd, 2004, 4:13 pm

if i tell Him that he don't give a fuck he still gonna worship the devil

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by CHRIS » September 2nd, 2004, 7:20 pm

THEN LEAVE CUZZ TO FIND OUT THE HARD WAY...THAT SHITT HAS LASTING EFFECT ON NIGGAS AND I DONT REMEMBER MUCH BLACCS TO WORSHIP HIM. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER LIKE 5-10, I WENT TO A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL, AND MY TEACHER WAS ALL INTO IT

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by G bka C.rum » September 2nd, 2004, 9:28 pm

This is a kind of stupid topic. If your a gangbanger out there killin,shootin, and robbing and selling drugs who do you think your worshipping? PPl be killing me. Just because you dont openly worship him and where a pentagram around your neck your still worshipping him either way.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by G bka C.rum » September 2nd, 2004, 9:37 pm

I take that back the topic isnt exactly stupid, but anyone whose bangin or hustlin or pimpin or whateva that acts like they aint worshipping Satan needs to look in the mirror and check themselves and ask who am I really serving. If your still claiming a street gang your allegiance isnt towards the Most High its toward a self-destructive path that Satan has set-up for too many of us brothas which is gonna lead you right to his door step if you brothas dont change repent and leave the BS alone. Ya'll think them bullets is hot try the lake of fire.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » September 3rd, 2004, 10:20 am

if you shot at him it's gonna come back on you badly trust me

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Kemosave » September 4th, 2004, 1:19 pm

The last hardcore devil worshipping streetgang member like that I met was late last year. He belonged to the Dead Ends in the valley. He was very wild and liked to do evil day and night. Shooting people was a particular thrill. Well, it all came back on him and he was shot nine times at close range by some of his many victims homies. He barely survived (it's a miracle he survived at all). He will never be able to ride again. He became a Christian and regrets the situation he put himself in today and the evil he did.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by babylimpy » September 4th, 2004, 1:38 pm

WTF TOPICS ARE GETTING WACK, BUT IF THAT YOUR THANG TO WORSHIP THE DEVIL,THEN MORE POWER TO YOU,JUST GET TO A MEDICAL BUILDING TO GET CHECKED OUT MENTALLY

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Anonymous20 » September 8th, 2004, 6:02 pm

AIGHT #1 I WHERE A PENTAGRAM PROUDLY......................I "DO NOT" WORSHIP THE DEVIL..........THIS SHIT REALLY FUCKS ME UP...............WE BANG..............THEY JUDGE .................WE CRY CUZ THEY JUDGE US ,.........THEN WE TURN AROUND AND JUDGE THOSE OF OTHER RELIGIONS............\

AS FOR DEVIL WORSHIPERS ---------------THATS THEY BUSINESS............ALL I'M SAYING IS DONT BE A HYPOCRIT..........

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Anonymous20 » September 9th, 2004, 4:23 pm

U GOT IT FUCKED UP IF YOU THINK THAT THE SACRED "PENTAGRAM" HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DEVIL WORSHIP...I AM A WITCH....A WICCAN....I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL.I DONT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEVIL AS EVEN EXISTING.
THE PENTAGRAM IS A SACRED AND POSITIVE SYBOL FOR MANY OF US. I WEAR 1 AROUND MY NECK AND I HAVE IT TATTED ON ME.
NO DISRESPECT BUT THE IGNORANCE KILLS ME.....

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Kemosave » September 23rd, 2004, 3:32 pm

Exactly. If you acknowledged the devil you wouldn’t be Wiccans. You would understand good and evil and that evil seeks to deceive, and that you are being deceived. Your refusal to acknowledge Evil Spirits is also not in tune with the Ancient Paganism that you claim to espouse.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » October 18th, 2004, 2:13 pm

I know some of ya gang members gotta worship the devil how does it feel when you worship the devil from the deep abyss?

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Kemosave » October 21st, 2004, 1:47 pm

If you're so interested why don't you write the nightstalker and ask him.

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » October 22nd, 2004, 3:55 pm

Cuz i don't worship the devil

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Kemosave » October 23rd, 2004, 2:45 pm

Oh you just have a really unhealthy curiousity then?

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by DiaBo » October 24th, 2004, 3:26 pm

Naw

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Re: People who the worship the Devil

Unread post by Mraka » May 4th, 2005, 9:43 am

satans number has changed,it is 616 now.
got to reprint ,re-tag. re-tat someone?

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Unread post by ratt » July 26th, 2005, 2:54 pm

all religions worship satan, christendom included. muslims too. only persons worshipplng the true GOD are exempt.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 26th, 2005, 4:53 pm

Regarding your false assertion that "All religions worship the devil", they most certainly do NOT. I challenge you to prove that empirically bringing supporting scholarly evidence that can be qualified. You sound like you got that from some off the shelf Wiccan book to me.

Bible believing evangelical Christians detest this rebellious fallen angel whose end is the fiery pit where the "worm never dies" and worship ONLY the one true tribue God (father/son/spirit). So you are TOTALLY off the mark if you are attempting to apply this to them.

Now certainly false cults that claim Christian (but in truth are not) such as the Mormons, for example, have made gross historical and theological errors due to their church leaders repeatedly rewriting the Bible and their primary church mansucripts in failed attempts resolve them with the many false statements and theologies the Mormon church leaders have propagated from Joseph Smith onwards. Some of these errors and false assertions claim the devil to be the brother of Jesus, etc.. etc.. Careful scientific DNA studies have undone them in the past few years proving that the history in the Book of Mormon is a complete lie. A fairy tale. The Mormon science arm known as FARMS has provided no logical refutation and the church leaders refuse to acknowledge the fact. But scientifically, they are finished.

Reagarding Islam, the devil in Islam, Iblis, is described in the Qur'an as "the adversary." Originally, he refused to obey God's commandment to prostrate himself before Adam. The devil in Islam tempts humans and tries to mislead them. Before beginning to read the Qur'an, Muslims recite the Ta'awud, in which they say, "I take refuge in God from Satan the stoned one"--praying that they may take refuge in Allah from the devil.
since in Islam the relationship between God and human beings is that of Master and slave, God is the Sovereign Monarch and humans must submit. This overpowering picture of God in the Qur'an has created its own tension in Muslim theology regarding God's absolute sovereignty and human free will and I would love to discuss that in detail with you but that is another discussion.

Anyway, the primary characteristic of the Devil, besides hubris, is that he has no power other than the power to cast evil suggestions into the heart of men. According to the verses of the Qur’an, the Devil is given time until the Resurrection Day (yaum-ul-qiyama) to deceive Adam's children (mankind). After that, he will be put into the fires of Hell along with those whom he has deceived. The Devil is also referred to as one of the Jinns (genies), as they are all created from the smokeless fires.

The Qur'an does not depict Shaitan as the enemy of Allah, for Allah is supreme over all his creations and Iblis is just one of his creations. Unlike the Zoroastrian beliefs, all good and bad deeds are from Allah himself and only he can save humanity from the evils of his universe and his creations. Shaitan's single enemy is humanity. He intends to discourage humans from obeying God. Thus, humankind is warned to struggle (jihad) against the mischiefs of the Shaitan and temptations he puts them in. The ones who succeed in this are rewarded with Paradise (jannath ul firdaus), attainable only by righteous conduct.

So in light of these facts, you will have to bring real evidence to support your assertion that Muslims worship the devil. Because I have quite an extensive library my friend and everything I have in front of me says that they certainly DO NOT!

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Unread post by ratt » July 26th, 2005, 11:16 pm

kemosave, i'll be more than happy to show proof. just not in one paragraph. so be patient as i reveal the devil's most powerful weapon and god's worse enemy.

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Unread post by ratt » July 26th, 2005, 11:59 pm

here are 3 satanic doctrines that originates from idol worshipping pagan cults. 1. triune gods or trinity, 2. immortality of the soul, 3. hell fire.
the word trinity doesn't appear no where in the bible nor does the pagan doctrine. mark 10:18; deut. 6:4. the bible do not teach that the soul survives death. ezekiel 18:4; gen. 2:7 eccl.9:5. hell, sheol, hades literally means grave. jesus went to hell acts 2:31. jonah was in hell jonah 2:1. job prayed to go there. job 14:13. more proof next time...

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Unread post by ratt » July 27th, 2005, 10:59 pm

you cannot worship god the way you want to, you must worship him the way he wants to be worshipped.(john 4:23,24) it is disrespectful for anyone to claim equality with god. in fact jesus gave no consideration of making himself equal (philippians 2:6;john 5:30; isaiah 46:5) remember, jesus was created (revelations 3:14;colosians 1:15,16). he is the first born of all creations, before the angels, before the earth, before the universe. he is god's master worker (proverbs 8:22-31). so before god created jesus, he was alone in the universe. no trinity, no mystery. simple. jehovah our god is one (deuteronomy 6:4;isaiah 44:6-8).

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 28th, 2005, 2:02 pm

Your theology is incorrect ratt. You are bringing several false, out of context, assertions.

The truth is that the Trinity is a fact, Jesus is the son of God, the soul is immortal, and hell exists for unbelieving evildoers. I'm constrained for time today so let's just deal with the Trinity first.

The doctrine of the Trinity, as taught in the Bible, is a vital tenet of the Christian faith. Christians universally agree upon the biblical substantiation of the Trinity so as to make it a testing ground for genuine fellowship. Those in the early Church who rejected the doctrine of One God in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) were identified as false teachers. In today’s Christianity we need to make certain that we hold true to this biblical doctrine of God.

Outside of Christianity there are those who argue that the doctrine of the Trinity came into being through a series of Church councils, beginning at the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325). Others denounce the Trinity saying that early Christians borrowed the concept from pagan religions such as you do ratt.

In response to the first argument, the doctrine of the Trinity was not formed at a church council. It is founded upon clear passages in the Bible. Church councils only helped define, theologically, the teachings already found within the Scriptures.

In response to the second argument, the Trinity was not borrowed from paganism, since all pagan concepts are polytheistic, which is not comparable to the monotheism within the Trinity. Polytheistic religions taught many gods, whereas the Trinity is monotheistic, teaching one God. You do need some good math, physics, and logic courses that cover topics like extradimensionality ratt, They will help you understand many things that apply to the universe and you will find that many things in the Bible make perfect sense afterwards.

Now two fallacies of reasoning are committed by such an argument. It is a categorical fallacy to compare polytheism to monotheism, since the two are mutually exclusive and belong to separate categories of discussion. It is also a genetic fallacy to claim that mere similarities prove a common origin. Just as similarities of automobiles cannot prove a common maker, so also similarities between Christian theology and world religions does not prove a common origin.

It is the duty of every Christian to understand the biblical teaching of one God who exists as three Persons. The Trinity is defined as: Within the nature of the One True God there simultaneously exist three eternal Persons; namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three persons are co-equal in all the nature and attributes of God.

The absence of the word “Trinity” in the Bible does not diminish the truth that the Bible teaches the eternal existence of one God as three Persons. Christians refer to God as tri-personal, which means there are three centers of identity. All three Persons speak and act in first person singular, “I,” (Father--Jn. 12:28; Son--Jn. 8:58; Holy Spirit--Acts 13:2). The Scriptures used in this study are not exhaustive. They are intended to demonstrate the doctrine clearly without violation of the context.

I see you like to quote scripture. Great, let's quote some:

MONOTHEISM, THE BELIEF IN ONE GOD: Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10, 44:8, 45:21-22; Mk. 12:32.

GOD’S NATURE OR ESSENCE IS SPIRIT: Jn. 4:24; 2 Cor. 3:17.

WE MUST SHOW THE DISTINCTION OF PERSON: Father is a Person - Matt. 6:9­; Luke 11:2.

Son is a Person - Matt. 3:17­; Acts 13:33; Prov. 30:4; Isa. 9:6.

Holy Spirit is a Person - John, chapters 14, 15, 16 (personal pronoun HE), Matt. 12:31; Rom. 8:26-27; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 10:29 (only a person can be blasphemed, grieved, insulted, intercede, etc.).

Their personal distinction is shown:

In the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

In Christ’s baptism (Matt. 3:16).

In the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19).

In Paul’s Epistles (2 Cor. 13:14).

ALL THREE PERSONS ARE GOD:

Father is God - Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3.

Son is God - Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Zech. 12:10; Matt. 1:23, 22:41-45, Mk. 2:7-10, 12:35-37; Luke 5:20-21, 20:41-44; Jn. 1:1 and 14, 1:18 (only begotten God, in Greek, See New American Standard Bible), Jn. 5:18, 8:58, 10:30-33, 20:28, Acts 20:28; Phil. 2:6-8; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:10-13; Heb. 1:6-8, 1 Jn. 5:20; 2 Pet. 1:1; Rev. 1:8. .

Holy Spirit is God - 2 Sam. 23:2-3; Ps. 95:7-11 with Heb. 3:7-19; Isa. 6:8-10 with Acts 28:25-27; Jer. 31:33-34 with Heb. 10:15-16; Acts 5:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20.

ALL THREE PERSONS ARE ONE LORD: (One Lord) Eph. 4:5; 1 Cor. 8:6; (Father) Isa. 64:8; Matt. 11:25; (Son) Jn. 11:32; Acts 2:36; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14 (Holy Spirit) 2 Cor. 3:17.

ALL THREE PERSONS SHARE THE ATTRIBUTES WHICH ARE UNIQUE TO THE TRUE GOD:

Omnipotent - (Father) Jer. 32:17; Job 42:2 (Son) Matt. 28:18; 1 Cor. 1:24; Col. 1:16-18; Rev. 1:8 (Holy Spirit) Lk. 1:35-37.

Omnipresent - (Father) Jer. 23:24; 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chron. 2:6 (Son) Matt. 18:20, 28:20 (Holy Spirit) Ps. 139:7-10.

Omniscient - (Father) Ps. 139:1-6; Isa. 44-7-8, 46:10 (Son) Jn. 2:24, 16:30; 1 Cor. 1:24; Col. 2:3 (Holy Spirit) Isa. 40:13; 1 Cor. 2:10.

Eternal - (Father) Deut. 33:27; Isa. 40:28 (Son) Micah 5:2; Jn. 1:1; Col. 1:17-19; Heb. 13:8; 1 Jn. 1:1 (Holy Spirit) Heb. 9:14.

Creator - (Father) Gen. 1:1; Isa. 42:5; Zech. 12:1 (Son) Jn. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10 (Holy Spirit) Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30.

Glory - (Father) Isa. 42:8 (Son) Jn. 17:5; Heb. 1:2 (Holy Spirit) 1 Pet. 4:14.

ALL THREE PERSONS SHARE IN THE WORK THAT IS UNIQUE TO GOD:

Indwells - (Father) Jn. 14:23; 1 Jn. 2:23 (Son) Eph. 3:17; Rev. 3:20 (Holy Spirit) Jn. 14:17; 2 Cor. 6:16-17.

Resurrected Jesus’ body - (Father) Gal. 1:1; 1 Thes. 1:9-10 (Son) Jn. 2:18-22, 10:17-18 (Holy Spirit) 1 Pet. 3:18.

Sanctifier - (Father) Jude 1 (Son) Heb. 2:11 (Holy Spirit) Rom. 15:16.

Restorer from death - (Father) Jn. 5:21; Rom. 4:17 (Son) Jn. 5:21, 6:39 (Holy Spirit) 1 Pet. 3:18.

Searches the heart - (Father) 1 Chron. 28:9 (Son) Rev. 2:18, 23 (Holy Spirit) 1 Cor. 2:9-10.

ALL THREE PERSONS ARE MENTIONED IN UNISON AS GOD: Isa. 48:16; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor . 13:14.

GOD SPOKE WITH PLURAL PRONOUNS:

All three Persons are shown in passages where God spoke using plural pronouns of Himself. God uses “us” and “our” in these verses when speaking of himself - Gen. 1:26, 3:22, 11:7-8; Isa. 6:8.

Furthermore, the Hebrew word Elohim, used of God 2,600 times in the Old Testament, is a plural noun. It is always translated in the singular when speaking of the true God because of the singular verb that governs the pronoun. An example is Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God [Elohim, a plural noun] created [bara, a singular verb] the heavens and the earth.” Even though the noun God is plural it is translated singular because it is governed by the verb. More than one Old Testament commentator sees the Trinity concealed in the precise language of the Bible. God has a plurality of Persons within the nature of His Being.

JEHOVAH IS USED OF EACH PERSON:

Most Bible translations (KJV, NIV, NASB, RSV) will typeset the Hebrew name for God in all capital letters, Lord. The Hebrew word used here is referred to as the tetragrammaton JHVH (Jehovah) or sometimes YHWH (Yahweh). Yahweh is preferred by scholars as closest pronunciation for the Hebrew name of God. Since it is recognized in our English translation as the Lord we can identify where God’s name is used in the Hebrew. This is valuable in discussing the Trinity because there are places in the Old Testament where more than one person is identified as Jehovah or Yahweh. The fact that God is One (Deut. 6:4) only underscores the importance of His Persons being identified with His name.

Two Persons are seen in Gen. 19:24, where the Lord rained fire and brimstone from the Lord. A distinction of two persons is made in Ps. 110:1, one is David’s Lord and the other is the Lord. Isaiah 44:6, in the Hebrew (see KJV, NKJV, NASB, NRSV), shows two persons, the speaker is the Lord and his redeemer is the Lord. Isaiah 48:16 shows three Persons; the speaker is the Lord, yet the Lord and His Spirit sent Him. In Jer. 50:40 and Amos 4:10-11 we find Gen. 19:24 reiterated, two persons are shown. Zechariah 2:8-11 and 10:12 has the Lord as the speaker, but it also speaks of the Lord as another person.

JESUS IS JEHOVAH!

New Testament writers referred to Jesus as Jehovah. They quickly drew the connection between Jesus and Jehovah because of their familiarity with the Old Testament. In some passages the name Jesus replaced the name Jehovah from the Old Testament quotation. In other passages Jesus is the one fulfilling only what Jehovah himself would do.

THE OLD TESTAMENT NAME JEHOVAH IS DELIBERATELY APPLIED TO JESUS.

Matt. 3:3 with Isa. 40:3.

Matt. 11:5 with Isa. 35:4-6.

Matt. 16:27 with Ps. 62:12.

Jn. 19:37 with Zech. 12:10.

Acts 2:20-21 with Joel 2:32.

Rom. 10:9-13 with Joel 2:32.

Phil. 2:10 with Isa. 45:23.

Heb. 1:10 with Ps. 102:25-27.

1 Pet. 2:8 with Isa. 8:13-14

Rev. 2:23 with Jer. 17:10.

Rev. 22:12 with Isa. 40:10 and 62:11.

APPEARANCES OF CHRIST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS JEHOVAH.

The appearances of Christ in the Old Testament are called Theophanies (appearances of God) or Christophanies (appearances of Christ). There were several times in the Old Testament where God appeared to men in a visible manifestation. Sometimes this would be in the appearance of angel and at other times the appearance of a man. This, of course, does not make God a created being, like an angel, it only means He manifested Himself to His people.

The Gospel of John records that no man has seen the Father (Jn. 1:18, 6:46). If the Father was not seen in the Old Testament, who, then, did the Patriarchs see? We believe it was the Second Person of the Trinity before he was born unto Mary. He was seen by Abraham (Jn. 8:56-58), and by Isaiah (Jn. 12:37-41). Paul wrote about Theophanies (1 Cor. 10:4) as did Luke (Acts 7:4).

Some of the appearances of God in the Old Testament are: Gen. 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 26:24, 35:9; Ex. 3:2-6, 6:3, 24:9-11, 33:18; Isa. 6:1-5. For further study consult a good study Bible (Open Bible, Scofield Reference Bible) or a Bible encyclopedia.

OLD TESTAMENT ATTRIBUTES AND TITLES OF JEHOVAH APPLIED TO JESUS.


Jehovah Jesus
Glory Isa. 42:8
Jn. 17:5

Light
Isa. 60:20

Ps. 27:1
Jn. 1:9

Jn. 8:12

Holy
Isa. 57:15
Lk. 1:49

Judge
Joel 3:12

Ps. 89:9

Ps. 50:6
Jn. 5:22

Jn. 9:39

2 Cor. 5:10

King
Jer. 10:10

Ps. 47:7
Rev. 17:14

Jn. 12:15

Lord
Deut. 10:17
Rev. 17:14

Rock
Deut. 34:4

2 Sam. 22:32
1 Cor. 10:4

1 Pet. 2:8

Savior
Ps. 106:21
Acts 4:12

First & Last
Isa. 41:4

Isa. 44:6
Rev. 1:8

Rev. 1:17

Shepherd Ps. 23:1

Ps. 80:1
Jn. 10:14

Heb. 13:20

I AM Ex. 3:14
Jn. 8:58

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JEHOVAH!

The Holy Spirit is shown to be Jehovah in the Old Testament. The following are quotations from the Old Testament where Jehovah was speaking, but in the New Testament He is identified as the Holy Spirit.

Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-9.

Ps. 78:17 with Acts 7:51.

Isa. 6:8-10 with Acts 28:25.

Jer. 31:33-34 with Heb. 10:15-16.

Ps. 95:7 with Heb. 3:7-11 (Elohim).

THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS SHARE THE ATTRIBUTES THAT BELONG ONLY TO JEHOVAH.

Jehovah

Jesus

Holy Spirit

Glory

Isa. 42:8

Jn. 17:5

1 Pet. 4:14

Rock

Deut. 32:4

1 Pt. 2:8

2 Sm.23:2,3

Judge

Ps. 50:6

Jn. 5:22

Jn. 16:8

Holy

Isa. 57:15

Lk. 1:35

Eph. 4:30

Lord

Deut. 10:17

Rv. 17:14

2 Cor. 3:17

CONCLUSION

I could go on Ratt showing your position regarding the Trinity as a misrepresentation of the facts. I have approximately 250 Biblical references on the Trinity and many books on the subject from a wide range of sources. Christianity rests upon what the entire Bible in context says not just a couple of verses (especially out of context especially out of context verses strung together into a false argument) extrapolated unnaturally. The truth is that the ample amount of support contained in the Bible (and this post) makes the doctrine of the Trinity undeniable. Enjoy the truth.

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Unread post by ratt » July 28th, 2005, 2:38 pm

the trinity dogma is not found in the bible. people are baptized with holy spirit, filled with holy spirit, and anointed with holy spirit. these references to the holy spirit do not fit a person. the bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water and blood. they tells us plainly that the personal name of god is jehovah, they inform us that the son is jesus, but nowhere in the scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

acts 7:55,56 reports that stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw jesus standing at god's right hand. but he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.

jesus prayed to jehovah. if they were not distinct indivduals such prayers would be meaningless. jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the fathers will. matt 26:39.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 28th, 2005, 3:23 pm

The reality of the Trinity is a fact and I just showed to you in the Bible that it is a fact very clearly in a well supported logical manner. You either did not understand it or chose not to accept it. Your example regarding Stephen doesn't prove anything. We shall deal with the relationship of the Son to the Father. But first, let's discuss the evidence supporting the Trinity some more.

The doctrine of the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine that allows the creature to peer ever so slightly into the window of God’s infinite nature and personhood. The Trinity may also be the most distinctive of all Christian teachings, setting Christianity apart from all other religions, including other monotheistic religions (such as Judaism and Islam). Because the Christian vision of God is unique, mysterious, and inscrutable to the finite mind, it is often misunderstood and misrepresented. This article will briefly explore what historic Christianity teaches concerning the Trinity by summarizing the doctrine’s most salient points, and by responding to some critical questions concerning its origin, intelligibility, coherence, and importance.

The Historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity
The Athanasian Creed, the longest and most philosophical of the ancient ecumenical creeds, enunciates the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity in the following manner:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal….

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords; there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords….1

The word “trinity” means “tri-unity” (three in one), thus conveying the revealed truth that there is plurality within the unity of God’s nature (one God in three persons). The doctrine of the Trinity should properly be understood within the broader context of the Christian theistic view of God.2 The God unveiled in the Bible and later expressed in the historic creeds and confessions of Christendom is the one sovereign and majestic Lord. Historic Christianity thus affirms belief in one infinitely perfect, eternal, and personal (or superpersonal) God, the transcendent Creator and sovereign Sustainer of the universe. This one God is Triune, existing eternally and simultaneously as three distinct and distinguishable persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three persons in the Godhead, or Divine Being, share equally and completely the one divine nature, and are therefore the same God, coequal in attributes, nature, and glory.

God has revealed Himself as one in essence or substance (being), but three in subsistence (personhood). In terms of what God is (essence), God is one; in terms of who God is (subsistence), God is three. Philosophically speaking, God is therefore “one What” and “three Whos.” To put it in the negative, it is not three different gods (tritheism), for that would divide the essence. Rather it is only one God (monotheism). And it is not one single solitary person (monarchianism, modalism), for that would blend or confound the persons. Rather it is three distinct and distinguishable persons (triune).

Ten Essential Points about the Trinity
The following ten points convey essential information about the Trinity, and will help one think through the most important elements concerning the doctrine.3

1. There exists only one God (one divine essence or being). Trinitarianism is a unique type of monotheism, and the underlying truth of monotheism is grounded in the Old and New Testament Scriptures. Orthodox Trinitarianism therefore rejects polytheism in general and tritheism in particular for they divide the divine essence.

2. The three persons of the Godhead are each fully divine, all sharing equally and fully the one divine essence (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). The deity of these three persons is also grounded in the Old and New Testament Scriptures.

3. The three persons of the Trinity should not be understood as three “parts” of God. Each person is fully divine and equally possesses all of God’s being.

4. The term “person” in reference to the Trinity should not be understood to refer to a separate entity or being, for this would divide the divine essence.

5. Unlike all finite creatures, God possesses plurality of personhood within His one infinite being. This is one example of the theological principle known as the Creator-creature distinction.

6. The members of the Trinity are qualitatively equal in attributes, nature, and glory. While Scripture reveals a subordination among the divine persons in terms of position or role (e.g., the Son submits to the Father, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son), there exists absolutely no subordination (inferiority) of essence or nature. The persons are therefore equal in being, but subordinate only in role or position.

7. The members of the Trinity are both eternally and simultaneously distinct as three persons. In other words, the Godhead has forever been, is now, and will forever subsist as three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. None of the persons came into being or became divine at a given moment in time. Orthodox Trinitarianism therefore rejects all forms of Arianism (that makes the Son a creature and often denies the Holy Spirit’s personality and deity).

8. The three members of the Godhead are distinct persons and can be distinguished from each other (e.g., the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit). Orthodox Trinitarianism therefore rejects all forms of modalism (that blends or confounds the persons by defining them as mere modes of existence).

9. God’s “oneness” and “threeness” are in different respects. In other words, the way in which God is one (essence) is different from the way God is three (subsistence). Christian theologians and philosophers through the centuries have argued that it is crucial to distinguish between God’s essence on one hand, and God’s subsistence on the other.

10.The way in which God is one does not violate the way in which God is three, and vice versa.

With these essential points in mind, let us now consider four important questions about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Four Critical Questions About The Trinity
1. Since the word “Trinity” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible, did the early church simply invent the doctrine out of thin air?
Linguistically, the term “trinity” comes from the Latin “trinitas.” This term was used by the church father Tertullian (c. A.D. 160-230) who wrote about “a trinity of one divinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” While it is true that the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity progressively developed in church history, that doesn’t mean that the church invented the doctrine without reference to the Bible. Some are troubled that the word “trinity” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible. But while the term is not contained in the Bible, this in no way invalidates it as a biblical doctrine. First of all, many important terms are not contained in the Bible. For example, the word “Bible” is not contained in the Bible. But while the actual word “trinity” doesn’t appear in the Bible, the doctrine is clearly revealed in Scripture. The following is a brief summary of the biblical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity. There are literally hundreds of passages that can be marshaled to support the Trinity doctrine.4

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity can be expressed in five propositions:

a) There is one, and only one, God (Deut. 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 2 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19).

b) The person of the Father is God (Col. 1:2-3; 2 Pet. 1:17).

c) The person of the Son is God (John 1:1; 5:17; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Col. 2:9; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet.1:1).

d) The person of the Holy Spirit is God (Gen. 1:2; John 14:26; Acts 5:3-4; 13:2,4; 28:25; Rom. 8:11; Eph. 4:30).

e) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguishable persons: (Matt. 28:19; Luke 3:22; John 15:26; 16:13-15; 2 Cor. 13:14).

The logical inference from these five biblical propositions is as follows. If there is only one God, and the three distinguishable persons are all called God, then the three persons must be the one God. The doctrine of the Trinity was not invented out of thin air by the church at the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) or at any other time. What really happened was that the fathers of the church saw the doctrine of the Trinity as a necessary inference from Scripture. The doctrine developed in the early church because of the overwhelming scriptural evidence supporting both the deity of Jesus Christ and the deity of the Holy Spirit. Evangelical theologian Alister E. McGrath explains:

The doctrine of the Trinity can be regarded as the outcome of a process of sustained and critical reflection on the pattern of divine activity revealed in Scripture, and continued in Christian experience. This is not to say that Scripture contains a doctrine of the Trinity; rather, Scripture bears witness to a God who demands to be understood in a Trinitarian manner…. Historically, it is possible to argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is closely linked with the development of the doctrine of the divinity of Christ.…The starting point for Christian reflections on the Trinity is, as we have seen, the New Testament witness to the presence and activity of God in Christ and through the Spirit.5

While no formal or dogmatic statement appears in the Bible concerning the Trinity, the truths that produce the doctrine find their origin uniquely in the pages of Holy Scripture. The language and context of the four following passages give clear indication that the apostles were well aware that their traditional Jewish monotheism had to be qualified to include the reality of three divine persons.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit …” (Matt. 28:19, NIV)

“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (2 Cor. 13:14, NIV)

“As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’” (Matt. 3:16-17, NIV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect … chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” (1 Pet. 1:1-2, NIV)

These passages place the Son and the Holy Spirit on an equal level with the Father, and are open to explicit Trinitarian interpretation.

2. Isn’t the Trinity a mysterious, unintelligible doctrine, and therefore an absurdity?
As creatures, human beings will never, not even in the next world, know and understand God as God understands Himself. And while the Trinity doctrine is to some degree mysterious and ultimately incomprehensible to the finite mind, that doesn’t mean that we can’t speak of the doctrine in a meaningful way, or that it is an absurdity. The Trinity is certainly meaningful and understandable as a teaching, but it simply cannot be fully fathomed by human beings. While we will never fully comprehend the Trinity, our imperfect analogies do provide some meaningful insight into the nature of God. And certainly our reasoned and careful inferences drawn from Scripture about God are meaningful and understandable, even though they are not ultimately comprehensive. Christian theologian and apologist Robert M. Bowman, Jr. provides a helpful clarification:

To say that the Trinity cannot be understood likewise is imprecise, or at least open to misinterpretation. Trinitarian theologians do not mean to imply that the Trinity is unintelligible nonsense. Rather, the point they are making is that the Trinity cannot be fully fathomed, or comprehended, by the finite mind of a man. There is a difference between gaining a basically correct understanding of something and having a complete, comprehensive, all-embracing, perfect understanding of it. The way many other theologians would express this difference is to say that the Trinity can be understood, or “apprehended,” but not “comprehended.”6

The difficulty that human beings have in encountering the Trinity doctrine is that God is in certain respects different from anything in the created order. For example, the teaching that one being subsists as three distinct persons is completely counter to all human experience. This is, of course, the difficulty with human analogies of the Trinity -- God is in some respects wholly other. However, the question is whether human beings will accept God as He actually reveals Himself to be, mystery included, or only settle for a being they think they can fully comprehend. Of course if the human mind can comprehend God, can he be much of a God? As C.S. Lewis points out, some concepts of God are easier than others: “If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it isn’t. We can’t compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We’re dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about!”7

3. Isn’t the Trinity a logical contradiction?
The law of non-contradiction, the foundational principle for all logical thinking, asserts that two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time and in the same respect (A cannot equal A and non-A). This law can take a metaphysical cast indicating what is or is not: “Nothing can both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect.” This same law can also take an epistemological cast, indicating what is true or false: “A statement cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same respect.”8 A contradiction in logic reflects a very specific relationship. Two statements are contradictory if they negate or deny each other. Contradictory statements have opposite truth value: exactly one statement is true; the other statement is false.

Skeptics often claim the Trinity is a contradiction in two ways. Some critics of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity assert that it violates the law of non-contradiction on the ground that the doctrine claims that God is one and not one, and that God is three and not three. This criticism is a straw man argument, however, for orthodox Trinitarianism does not assert that God is one and not one, three and not three. Rather the Trinity doctrine asserts that the way God is one (essence), He is not three. And the way that God is three (subsistence), He is not one. Trinitarians assert that one must distinguish God’s essence on one hand and God’s subsistence on the other. God is one in a different respect than the way He is three, and three in a different respect than the way He is one. Thus the Trinity is not a formal contradiction.

Other critics claim that the formulation of the Trinity does indeed involve a contradiction. They argue the following: Since the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit and the Son is not the Holy Spirit; then the result is that each person is simultaneously God and not God. This is, they reason, a violation of the law of non-contradiction.

This evaluation of the Trinitarian formulation is equally a straw man argument, for again it fails to recognize the essence/subsistence distinction. The members of the Trinity all share equally the one divine nature and are thus the one God. However, the relational distinctions in the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) do not in any way subtract from each individual person’s possession of the divine nature. Thus the three persons are distinct from each other, but they nevertheless remain fully and equally God. How one Being can simultaneously be three persons is an unfathomable mystery, but it is not a formal contradiction.

This logical tension may be alleviated if one recognizes what is known as the “predication/identity distinction.”9 To say that “Jesus Christ is God” is to predicate the divine nature to Jesus Christ which is an attribute of being that He shares equally and fully with the Father and the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, to say “Jesus Christ is God the Son” is to make an identity claim; namely, that the person of Jesus of Nazareth is the same (identical) person as God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. It is not contradictory to attribute deity to all three members of the Trinity (predication), while simultaneously asserting that they possess distinct personal identities: Father, Son, Holy Spirit (identity). Often misunderstandings can be cleared up if Christians take great care in formulating and articulating the Trinity doctrine.

Critics may question the essence/subsistence distinction, but if they are going to critique the historic doctrine of the Trinity, they must take this critical distinction into account. Christians throughout the centuries have affirmed that the Trinity may range above reason, but never against reason. As Christian theologian Geoffrey Bromiley asserts: “Rationalist objections to the Trinity break down in the fact that they insist on interpreting the Creator in terms of the creature…”10

4. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity important?
As stated earlier, the Trinity doctrine is crucially important because it reveals What and Who God is (one God in three persons). This allows Christians, though in an obviously limited way, to view the inner working of God’s nature and personhood. This doctrine allows God’s people, as the Athanasian Creed declares, to “worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity…” Christians assert that to fail to worship the Triune God is to fail to worship God.

Furthermore, the Trinity doctrine brings together in a coherent manner the great truths about God’s historical/redemptive actions in and through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, the Father sends the Son into the world to offer a propitiary sacrifice on the cross that will both appease the Father’s just wrath against sin and extend the Father’s love and mercy by allowing repentant sinners to escape divine judgment. The Incarnate Son (the second person of the Trinity) is able to provide this atonement because He is both God and man (in this case “two Whats” and “one Who”). The God-man conquers death, sin, and hell through His glorious resurrection from the dead. The Holy Spirit (another Comforter) is directly responsible for the believer’s new birth in Christ through regeneration and for the life journey of sanctification. The entire plan of redemption is made possible by the three divine members of the Trinity. Thus salvation from first to last is directly connected to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Finally, as the greatest of the church fathers, St. Augustine (A.D. 354-430), explained in his monumental work De Trinitate (On The Trinity), only a God who has plurality within unity can adequately account for God being love and for the use of His divine mind. For if God is a single solitary being, then before the creation He has no one to love, and He cannot distinguish between the knower and the known (a requisite of self knowledge).11

Christians have grown to cherish the doctrine of the Trinity that sets their religion apart from all others. Through the centuries they have worshiped one God in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity. The last stanza of Reginald Heber’s hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy” (1826) exemplifies this worship:

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God almighty!
All thy works shall praise thy name, in earth and sky and sea;
Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!12

References:
1. Athanasian Creed, in Ecumenical Creeds and Reformed Confessions (Grand Rapids: CRC Publications, 1988), 9-10.

2. For a discussion of the attributes of God see John Jefferson Davis, Handbook of Basic Bible Texts (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), 23-39; Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996), 29-81.

3. These points were influenced by Robert M. Bowman, Jr., Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1989); Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1998), 321-42; Richard A. Muller, Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1985), s.v. “trinitas,” 306-10; Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 226-61.

4. See Bowman, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, 50-51, 91-110, 114-20, 124-34.

5. Alister E. McGrath, An Introduction to Christianity (Cambridge, Mass: Blackwell, 1997), 193-94.

6. Bowman, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, 16-17.

7. C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1952), 145.

8. For a clear and insightful discussion of the formal laws of logic, see Ronald H. Nash, The Word of God and the Mind of Man (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982), 103-12; and Ed L. Miller, Questions That Matter, 4th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996), 32-33.

9. See Thomas D. Senor’s helpful discussion of this philosophical distinction in Michael J. Murray ed., Reason for the Hope Within (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999), 239-40.

10. Walter A. Elwell, ed. Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984), s.v. “Trinity,” 1112.

11. Norman L. Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1999), s.v. “Trinity,” 736.

12. Psalter Hymnal, Centennial Edition (Grand Rapids: CRC Publication, 1959), hymn #318, 375.


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Glossary of Terms
Arianism: The heretical view that Christ’s nature or essence is inferior to the Father; that Christ is a created being. A denial of the full and unqualified deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit.

catholic: When written in lower case, it is a reference to the universal or orthodox Christian church.

essence: The necessary characteristics that make a thing what it is. In terms of God, the full nature or substance of what God is.

modalism: The heretical view that there is only one divine person who merely appears in three different forms or modes; a denial that the three members of the Trinity are distinct and distinguishable persons.

monarchianism: The view that so stressed the unity of God as to exclude God’s plurality (as three distinct persons).

monotheism: The view that there is one, and only one, God (affirmed in Trinitarianism).

ontology: The study of being.

polytheism: The view that there is more than one, or many, gods.

Straw man fallacy: An informal fallacy in which the arguer distorts or misrepresents his opponent’s argument and then attacks the distorted argument.

subsistence: From the Latin “subsistentia,” with respect to the Trinity an individual instance of a given essence.

Trinitarianism: The orthodox doctrine that God is one in essence but three in subsistence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

tritheism: The view that there are three separate gods.

Now we can move on to the very real relationship between Jesus the son and God the father.

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Kemosave
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Unread post by Kemosave » July 28th, 2005, 3:29 pm

Next ratt,

The belief that Jesus Christ is God incarnate is not new to the Christian faith. This doctrine is deeply rooted in Scripture and spans both the Old and New Testament.

Our acceptance of the deity of Jesus Christ is based upon direct biblical statements that He possesses the unique attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in all the nature and attributes of God.

When Christians speak of Jesus as God incarnate, we mean that God, the Creator of the universe, stepped into the human race and clothed Himself with a human body. The Scriptures clearly teach us that the Son of God was sent into the world to become the Savior of mankind (John 3:16). He came from above (Jn. 8:23), as our Creator (Jn. 1:3, 10), and entered the human race in a tabernacle of flesh (Jn. 1:14). Faithful followers of Jesus Christ accept the teaching that He has two natures - the nature of God and the nature of man.

To deny either aspect of Christ’s nature, that He is both God and man, is to commit the greatest sin in understanding God’s Word. Denial of Jesus’ deity is a denial of His personal nature and preexistence, which would reduce Him to merely a man in need of salvation himself. Denial of His human nature is just as detrimental, for it denies his mission, atonement, and resurrection. The only correct understanding of Scripture is to accept all that it says about Jesus, that He is both God and man.

Several biblical passages discuss the incarnation of Jesus at length (John 1:1-18; Phil. 2:6-8; Col. 1:16-18; Heb. 1:1-10; Rev. 1:1-17). One passage that sets forth the two natures of Jesus Christ in unmistakable terms is Philippians 2:6-7.

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”

These verses present us with the clear understanding that Jesus has two natures - the nature of God and man. Let us closely look at these verses line by line.

Verse 6: Who, being in the form of God -- The word form here is the Greek word morphe, meaning form, nature, or attributes. Jesus, in His pre-human nature was none other than God. Thought it not robbery to be equal with God -- This says that He did not have to grasp for what was already His by nature, namely, equality with God.

Verse 7: But made himself of no reputation -- This speaks of Christ’s humility. When He came to earth, He emptied Himself by choosing to live and respond as a man while still possessing all the fullness of deity (Col. 2:9). And took upon him the form of a servant -- This second occurrence of morphe, form, tells us that Jesus acquired manhood. He is the form of God and took upon himself another form, that of man. And was made in the likeness of men -- His nature as a man was not altered by the fact that his person was God, neither was his nature as God altered in any way when He became incarnate as man.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIRECT STATEMENT ATTESTING TO THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST.

Isa. 7:14 - Immanuel means “God with us,” a name that describes His person.

Isa. 9:6 - He is the mighty God. See 10:22, the mighty God is Israel’s God.

Zech. 12:10 - In this verse Jehovah is the speaker, yet He is pierced for our sins.

Matt. 1:23 - He is God with us.

Matt. 22:41-45 - Jesus is David’s Lord--but David lived 1,200 years before Christ said this! David was monotheistic, believing in one Lord. See Mk. 12:35-37 and Lk. 20:44.

Mk. 2:7-10 - Jesus forgave sins, which only God can do. See Lk. 5:20 also.

Jn. 1:1, 14 - The eternal Word was God who became a man.

Jn. 1:18 - The Greek text says “Only begotten God,” instead of “Son.” See the NASB or NIV.

Jn. 5:18 - Jesus made Himself equal with God by saying that God was His Father.

Jn. 8:58 - Jesus used the divine expression I AM of Himself, as also found in Ex. 3:14.

Jn. 10:30 - I and my Father are one. The word one (hen) is neuter in Greek. It means one in essence or nature. In this He claims to be God. See verse 33, where the Jews understood this claim.

Jn. 20:28 - Thomas said Jesus is his Lord and God. Thomas was monotheistic, believing in one God. Jesus accepted it and blessed him.

Acts 20:28 - The two oldest Greek manuscripts say that God purchased the Church with his own blood. This could only happen when God was incarnate as Jesus.

Rom. 9:5 - The antecedent to the clause “God, blessed forever,” is Jesus.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus has two natures, that of God and man.

Col. 2:9 - The fullness of deity dwelt bodily in Him.

Titus 2:13 - The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says this should be translated as “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” When two nouns are joined by the word and (kai), whereas the first has the definite article but the second does not, then the second noun is only further description of the first. See the NASB or NIV.

Heb. 1:8 - The Father called the Son God.

2 Pet. 1:1 - Jesus is “our God and Savior.” The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar applies here. See the NASB.

1 Jn. 5:20 - This verse says Jesus is the True God and eternal life. For those who doubt, see 1 Jn. 1:2, where the Son is called the “eternal life” at the opening of this epistle.

Rev. 1:8 - Here, Jesus speaks of himself as God the almighty.

JESUS HOLDS ALL THE ATTRIBUTES THAT ARE UNIQUE TO GOD.

Eternal: Micah 5:2; Jn. 1:1; Col. 1:17-19 (before all things); Heb. 1:8; 1 Jn. 1:1.

Omnipotent: Matt. 28:18; 1 Cor. 1:24; Col. 1:16-18; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 1:8.

Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20, 28:20.

Omniscient: Jn. 2:24, 16:30; 1 Cor. 1:24; Col. 2:3.

Immutable: Heb. 1:8, 13:8.

Creator: Jn. 1:3, 10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10.

JESUS IS JEHOVAH!

New Testament writers referred to Jesus as Jehovah. Those familiar with the Old Testament, as what the early Christians were, would quickly see this connection. In some passages, New Testament writers simply replaced the name Jehovah with Jesus, showing His identity. In other passages Jesus fulfills only what Jehovah was said to fulfill.

THE OLD TESTAMENT NAME JEHOVAH IS DELIBERATELY APPLIED TO JESUS.

Matt. 3:3 with Isa. 40:3

Matt. 11:5 with Isa. 35:4-6

Matt. 16:27 with Ps. 62:12

Jn. 19:37 with Zech. 12:10

Acts 2:20-21 with Joel 2:32

Rom. 10:9-13 with Joel 2:32

Phil. 2:10 with Isa. 45:23

Heb. 1:10 with Ps. 102:25-27

1 Pet. 2:8 with Isa. 8:13-14

Rev. 2:23 with Jer. 17:10

Rev. 22:12 with Isa. 40:10 and 62:11

APPEARANCES OF CHRIST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

The appearances of Christ in the Old Testament are called Theophanies (appearances of God) or Christophanies (appearances of Christ). There are several times in the Old Testament where God appeared to men in a visible manifestation. Sometimes the manifestation is as an angel, a man, or a burning bush. The Gospel of John records that no man has seen the Father (Jn. 1:18, 6:46). Since no one has seen the Father, who, then, did they see in the Old Testament? We believe that the testimony of Scripture is that it was Jesus, before he was born unto Mary, who appeared. The New Testament gives direct and indirect reference to this. He was seen by Abraham (Jn. 8:56-58), and by Isaiah (Jn. 12:37-41), and Paul wrote about Theophanies (1 Cor. 10:4) as did Luke (Acts 7:4).

For your personal Bible study on this, consult Gen. 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 26:24, 35:9; Ex. 3:2-6, 6;3, 24:9-11, 33:18; and Isa. 6:1-5. Additional study can be found in good study Bibles or Bible encyclopedias.

OLD TESTAMENT ATTRIBUTES AND TITLES OF JEHOVAH APPLIED TO JESUS.

Jehovah
Jesus

Glory
Isa. 42.8
Jn. 17:5

Light
Isa. 60:20

Ps. 27:1
Jn. 1:9

Jn. 8:12

Holy
Isa. 57:15
Lk. 1:35

Judge
Joel 3:12

Ps. 50:6
Jn. 5:22

2 Cor. 5:10

King
Jer. 10:10

Ps. 47:7
Rev. 17:14

Jn. 12:15

Lord
Deut. 10:17
Rev. 17:14

Rock
Deut. 32:4

2 Sam. 22:32
1 Cor. 10:4

1 Pet. 2:8

Savior
Ps. 106:21
Acts 4:12

Shepherd
Ps. 23:1

Ps. 80:1
Jn. 10:14

Heb. 13:20

I AM
Ex. 3:14
Jn. 8:58

First and Last
Isa. 41:4

Isa. 44:6
Rev. 1:8

Rev. 1:17

JESUS RESPONDED TO SITUATIONS AS ONLY GOD CAN.

Jesus forgave sins: Mk. 2:7-10; Lk. 5:20

Jesus was worshipped: Matt. 2:11 (by wise men), 8:3 (by the healed), 9:18 (by a ruler), 15:25 (by a Canaanite); Jn 9:38 (by the man born blind); Heb. 1:6 (by angels); Rev. 5:14 (by four heavenly creatures).

Jesus accepted prayer: Jn. 14:14 (the Greek says, “If you as ME anything in My name,” see NASB); Acts 7:59-60 (Stephen prayed to Him); 1 Cor. 1:2 (the Church called upon Him); 2 Cor. 12:8-9 (Christ answered Paul’s prayer).

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

In light of all the evidence concerning the deity of Jesus Christ there are some who still maintain that Jesus Christ is not God. This is usually due to two misunderstandings in their thinking -- (1) they confuse the Persons of the Trinity, or, (2) they confuse the humanity and deity of Christ.

In the first situation the denial is usually stated as “the Father is not the Son, so Jesus cannot be God.” The problem is in the statement. No Christian says the Father is the Son. What we state is that the Father is distinct from the Son in person, but they share the nature of the one true God. We should always watch our terminology so that the Persons of the Trinity are not confused.

In the second situation the denial centers on the apparent humiliation of Christ’s humanity, which is falsely interpreted as a denial of his deity. These questions are best answered by always keeping in mind the biblical fact that Jesus is both God and man. Let us look at some examples of these questions.

(1) Questions of omniscience: Verses like Mark 13:32 are referred to in an effort to say that Christ did not know everything. This confuses Christ’s will with His ability. All knowledge was hidden in Him (Col. 2:3). If Jesus willed not to reveal something, it does not mean He lacked the ability. The will to do something is not the same as the ability, neither is the lack of will to be confused with the ability.

(2) Questions of omnipotence: Verses that show an apparent lack of power in Jesus are used to say He has no power. This is a misunderstanding of His mission. One purpose of His mission was to let the Father work through Him instead of acting on His own accord (Jn. 5:19). The Son was active in creation while the Father worked through Him (Heb. 1:2), yet nobody degrades the Father by claiming that the Father lacked the power on the basis that the Son did the work. Likewise, when we encounter verses where there is an appearance of weakness in the Son, we are most likely confusing His willingness to do something with His power to accomplish it.

(3) Questions of omnipresence: This challenge is usually phrased, “How can the Son be everywhere when He is on the right hand of the Father?” The answer is that his nature as God is everywhere present (Matt. 18:20, 28:20), while his resurrected body is on the right hand of the Father.

(4) Another question comes from Matthew 19:16-21, where Jesus said, “There is none good, but one, that is, God.” Some people suppose that Jesus denied his deity here. Just the opposite is true. Jesus affirmed what the young ruler had already recognized in him, that He is the “good master.” Jesus never said He was not good. He called Himself the good Shepherd in Jn. 10:14. He never rebuked the man for calling Him good. Rather, He told the man to follow Him (vs. 21), which He would not have done were He not good enough to follow. If Jesus is good, according to this verse, and He is also God, or Jesus is not good, and He is not God. Nobody can settle for a Jesus who is not good, so this verse drives us to the conclusion that He is both Good and God.

CONCLUSION

The overwhelming testimony of the Bible and supporting historical manscripts is that Jesus is both God and man. I have over 100 verses and numerous scholarly materials attesting to the deity of Jesus Christ. In agreement with Thomas, Christians recognize Jesus as, “My Lord and My God.”

Your attempt to paint Jesus as just another man and it is not right for just another man to claim himself equal with God is a common mistake that Muslims make ratt. Jesus was not just another man claiming divinity like so many. He is the living son of God which history and the ancient manuscripts clearly prove. You will need to do some more reading.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 28th, 2005, 3:40 pm

Regarding your assertion that the Holy Spirit cannot be part of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body (if I am reading you right).

The Bible begins with these two verses:

Genesis 1:1-2 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and the darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There are four things that can be observed from this passage:

(1) God created all things, so He cannot be a created thing Himself.
(2) All created things must have a beginning and are finite. Since God is not a created thing, then He is infinite and eternal.
(3) There are two persons active as the Creator in these verses, God and the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit’s personal distinction is seen in the prepositional phrase “the Spirit of God.”
(4) Hence, the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) is coequal with God as the Creator in eternity.

The Bible opens with the doctrine of God’s existence independent of creation. The activity of the Father (Genesis 1:1), the Son (John 1:3), and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) in creation forms a basis for the coequality of three Persons in one God (the Trinity). When Christians refer to the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity, it has nothing to do with degree or rank. He is called the third person of the Trinity only to distinguish His person from the Father and Son.

The Person of the Holy Spirit

When we speak of the “person” of the Holy Spirit, we must clearly state that “person” does not mean a “material body,” since we’ve seen in Genesis that the Holy Spirit is uncreated and is eternal. By “person,” we mean the qualities that determine a personal nature (intelligence, emotion, will and mind) reside in the Holy Spirit. These personal characteristics cannot be found in non-personal entities. The Holy Spirit, then, is not a mere influence, force, or power. He has the distinctive characteristics of personal beingness.

Intelligence: John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:10

Emotion: Romans 15:30 (love); Ephesians 4:30

Will: 1 Corinthians 12:11

Mind: Romans 8:27

The Holy Spirit is addressed as a person in the Old Testament. He speaks and He is identified with a personal pronoun.

2 Samuel 23:2 -- His Word was on my tongue.

Isaiah 40:13-14 -- Who has taught Him?

Ezekiel 11:1-2, 5 -- He, The Spirit of the Lord, spoke.

The Holy Spirit’s person can be further demonstrated by examining the pronouns applied to Him. Even though the word “Spirit” in the Greek New Testament is a neuter noun, it is often used with a masculine demonstrative pronoun. This emphasizes the personality of the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit by using the masculine pronouns He and Him. The Greek word “ekeinos” is used as a demonstrative pronoun throughout John 14, 15 and 16. The masculine noun “paraklete”, for Helper (Comforter, KJV), is also used throughout these chapters for the Holy Spirit. Let us examine His personal nature in these verses:

John 14:16-17 -- And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Helper (parakleton), that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knowes Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 -- But the Helper (parakletos), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He (ekeinos) will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26 -- But when the Helper (parakletos) comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He (ekeinos) will testify of me.

John 16:7-8 – Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (parakletos) will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He (ekeinos) has come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

John 16:13-14 -- However, when He (ekeinos), the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He (ekeinos) will glorify me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you.

The Holy Spirit speaks of Himself in first person singular, as “me” and “I”.

Acts 10:19-20 -- While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are seeking you. Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them.”

Acts 13:2 -- ...the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work unto which I have called them.

The Holy Spirit spoke with His own voice from Heaven.

Revelation 14:13 -- Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: `Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Revelation 22:17 -- And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires let him take the water of life freely.

The Holy Spirit’s work is uniquely what only God does:

He works miracles: Acts 8:39

He teaches: Nehemiah 9:20; John 14:26

He speaks: John 16:14; Acts 13:2; Revelation 2:7

He hears: John 16:13

He intercedes: Romans 8:26

He inspires: 2 Peter 1:21

He convicts of sin: John 16:8

The Holy Spirit responds only as a Person does:

He can be blasphemed: Matthew 12:31

He can be lied to: Acts 5:3

He can be grieved: Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30

He can be resisted: Acts 7:51; 1 Thessalonians 5:19

The Holy Spirit is not merely a power, since He is distinguished from power.

Acts 10:38 -- “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power.”

Romans 15:13 -- Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:4 -- And my speech and by preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.

The Holy Spirit shows personal interactions with other persons:

Matt. 28:19 -- His relationship to the Father and Son in this verse is one of equality.

John 14:26 -- When Jesus used “another Comforter” to describe the Holy Spirit, He was saying that the Holy Spirit was the same as He was. The word “another” in the Greek is “allon” which denotes “another of the same kind.” Whereas, if “heteros” was used, it would mean “another of a different kind.”

Acts 15:28 -- His relationship to the Apostles shows a personal relationship.

2 Corinthians 13:14 -- The only way that we can have fellowship with the Holy Spirit is if He is a person.

Can anyone truly deny that the Holy Spirit is a person? There are some who attempt to do so, but without biblical justification. The above references are not mere figures of speech. They are not personifications of a force or energy. The Holy Spirit is a personal being and He is God. No impersonal entity can possess intellect, emotion, will and mind.

The Holy Spirit is GOD

It is clearly taught in the Bible that there is only One True God. Specific attributes belong uniquely to God and nobody else. If the Scriptures show us that there are three Persons who are called God, and that all three Persons have the unique attributes of the True God, then we must conclude that these three Persons are the true God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit co-equally share the attributes and nature of God.

The Holy Spirit is called God in these passages:

2 Samuel 23:2-3 -- Here the Holy Spirit is called the God of Israel.

Acts 5:3-4 -- In these verses it is seen that the Holy Spirit was lied to, and it was not man who was lied to, but it was God.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 -- It is the Holy Spirit who is in you, yet it is God who is in you.

2 Timothy 3:16 with 2 Peter 1:20 -- The Holy Spirit inspires Scripture, because He is God.

The Holy Spirit has the unique attributes of the True God:

Creator: Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4; Psalm 104:30

Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37 (He is called the Power of the Highest)

Omnipresent: Psalm 139:7-10

Omniscient: Ezekiel 11:5; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10

Eternal: Hebrews 9:14

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah:

Bible students do not question that Jehovah (or Yahweh) is the only true God. Yet some are surprised that the Holy Spirit is shown to be Jehovah from the Old Testament. In the following references we find Old Testament quotations applied to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. Jehovah was speaking in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament His identity is the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 32:9 with Acts 7:51

Isaiah 6:8-10 with Acts 28:25
Jeremiah 31:33-34 with Hebrews 10:15-16

The Holy Spirit is Elohim:

The most frequently occurring Hebrew noun for God in the Old Testament is Elohim. This is applied to the Holy Spirit in the following passages.

Psalm 95:7 with Hebrews 3:7-11

The Holy Spirit is Lord:

The Holy Spirit’s Deity is seen in His union with the Father and the Son. The Bible teaches that there is One Lord, (Ephesians 4:5), and all three Person of the Trinity are called Lord.

The Father is called Lord (Matthew 11:25).

The Son is called Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

The Holy Spirit is called Lord (2 Corinthians 3:17).

The Holy Spirit is coequal with the Father and Son:

The equality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is seen in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Father resurrected Christ (Galatians 1:1).

The Son resurrected Himself (John 2:18-22; 10:17-18).

The Holy Spirit resurrected Christ (2 Pet. 3:18).

The equality of all three Persons is seen in the baptismal formula of Matt. 28:19 and in the sending of the Messiah in Isaiah 48:16.

The Holy Spirit shares God’s unique attributes:

The Holy Spirit’s nature as God is seen in a comparison of the attributes and titles of Jehovah God with the Holy Spirit.

God
Holy Spirit

Glory Isa. 42:8
1 Peter 4:14

Searches mind and heart
1 Chronicles 82:9
1 Corinthians 2:9-10

Gives life
Rom. 4:17
Rom. 8:11

Indwells
2 Cor. 6:16-17

1 Cor. 6:19
1 Cor. 6:19

John 14:17

Spoke to prophets
Lk. 1:68-70

Heb. 1:1
Acts 28:25

2 Pet. 1:21

Rock
Deut. 32:4
2 Sam. 23:2-3

Judge
Ps. 50:6
Jn. 16:8

Comforter
Isa. 51:12
Jn. 14:16

The Holy Spirit is truly a person and is truly God. To deny either is to deny the uniformity of the Scriptures. Those who deny His person and His deity have traded the truth for “another spirit” (2 Corinthians 11:4), which other spirit Paul warned us about. Denial of the Holy Spirit’s person and deity is disobedience to biblical truth.

The testimony of the Scripture is overwhelming that the Holy Spirit is a person and that He is God. So ratt you are presenting a counterfeit doctrine. Furthermore, the New Testament gives us the complete picture of the Holy Spirit. He is not an influence, force, or power. He is the Third Person of the Trinity who was sent by the Father and the Son to abide with us forever--John 14:16.

TmaaN

Unread post by TmaaN » July 28th, 2005, 4:25 pm

Ratt, if the Holy Spirit is not a 'person' the what is He?

Anonymous20

Unread post by Anonymous20 » July 28th, 2005, 5:51 pm

i dont believe in the trinity either, it goes against conventional wisdom. Kemosave, if you can, a brief response would be great. I scanned through your last post to Ratt, but that was long.

My point it that Jesus and God are to seperate beings. God being father, and Jesus being son. Jesus was created, has a begining, God always has been, he has no begining.

The word Trinity never appears in scripture, not even once. Jesus never preached a trinity. After his death, his followers never preached a trinity. The notion of a trinity was first introduced almost 200 years after Christ death. And it was not until 381 AD at the Council of Constantinople that the triune god or the Trinity of three persons in One God is established.

You can read a scripture in the Bible and interpet a scripture anyway you want. For every scripture that you read that suggests that the trinity is real, I can just as easily cite scriptures that suggests the opposite.

Many people have been indoctrinated with this philosphy since the beginning. In 388 AD Emperor Theodosius had to use threats and punishment to those who rejected the Trinity because many people said that it was scriptural back then and that's my position today.

The Trinity was introduced into Christianity just as Easter and Christmas was. But many will say that you not a good Christian if you reject Easter and Christmas, but it is all false, including the Trinity.

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Unread post by Dr Funky » July 28th, 2005, 6:20 pm

alonso wrote:God always has been, he has no begining
That's like thinking about how big the universe is. It gives me a headache.

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Unread post by Kemosave » July 28th, 2005, 7:35 pm

Alonso: i dont believe in the trinity either, it goes against conventional wisdom. Kemosave, if you can, a brief response would be great. I scanned through your last post to Ratt, but that was long.

Kemo: I must disagree with you then. It was against conventional wisdom for more than four dimensions beyond the 3 space and 1 time dimension of our universe to exist. But they do. Simply because the word Trinity is not used in the Bible does not negate the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity spins through it from beginning to end. The above perspective is a coherent rational properly supported argument for the Trinity. Read it.

Alonso: My point is that Jesus and God are two seperate beings. God being father, and Jesus being son. Jesus was created, has a begining, God always has been, he has no begining.

Kemo: There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16). This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature.

Alonso: The word Trinity never appears in scripture, not even once. Jesus never preached a trinity. After his death, his followers never preached a trinity. The notion of a trinity was first introduced almost 200 years after Christ death. And it was not until 381 AD at the Council of Constantinople that the triune god or the Trinity of three persons in One God is established.

Kemo: It is illogical to claim that since the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible that its concept is not taught therein. This kind of objection usually demonstrates a prejudice against the teaching of the Trinity such as someone who adheres to Jehova Witness theology for example. Instead, the person should look to God's word to see if it is taught or not. There are many Biblical concepts that people believe in that are not found in the Bible. For example, the word "Bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God.
Then there are words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned such as atheism the teaching that there is no God ("The fool has said in his heart, There is no God" Psalm 14:1), divinity which means divine quality or godlike character (Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139), incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh (Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible in John 1:1,14), monotheism (the teaching that there is only one God Isaiah 43:10; 44:8), and rapture (the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air 1 Thess. 4:16-18). The list goes on and on.

So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument. Furthermore, to say that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have clearly taught it in scripture, is also an invalid argument. Something does not have to be clearly formulated in the Bible to be valid. Not all things taught in the Bible are perfectly clear. Take a look at the book of Revelation. It contains many things that are cryptic that must be interpreted after examining all of the Bible. Even then, there are disagreements as to what some things mean. Yet, we know that the truths there are true whether or not we discover and codify them when we do.

Alonso: You can read a scripture in the Bible and interpet a scripture anyway you want. For every scripture that you read that suggests that the trinity is real, I can just as easily cite scriptures that suggests the opposite.

Kemo: You cannot cherry pick only a handful of verses which ratt has done to support your claims and ignore everything else including the context within the entire scope of the Bible. There are not a bunch of right answers to this question. Either the father, son, and spirit are one (e.g. the Trinity) or they are not. I am making a very logical argument that takes into account the entire Bible in context in a manner that uses the principles of logic correctly (as in systematic theology).

Alonso: Many people have been indoctrinated with this philosphy since the beginning. In 388 AD Emperor Theodosius had to use threats and punishment to those who rejected the Trinity because many people said that it was scriptural back then and that's my position today.

Kemo: You mean the Roman emperor Theodosius I, who reigned from AD 379 to 395 who issued the following decree: "We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians, but as for the others, since, in our judgment, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and in the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" and then set about killing off every other Christian who didn't join the political union of church and state he was creating. I'm running out of time but I'll be happy to discuss that this weekend. I'll be out in the field tomorrow.

Alonso: The Trinity was introduced into Christianity just as Easter and Christmas was. But many will say that you not a good Christian if you reject Easter and Christmas, but it is all false, including the Trinity.

Kemo: I've talked about the origins of Easter and Christmas already and explained how the Roman Catholic Church State integrated in the old pagan Nimrod worship of Babylon, like worship of Mary for example, and why as in Revelations 18:4 that will be judged by God. Doesn't apply to Christians who have already left and formed their own assemblies around sound teaching. Check my other posts to ratt and you will find it there. Not putting up a tree or putting up a tree has nothing to do with anything to the modern Christian. I'll be happy to discuss it further. The Trinity is a sound Biblical doctrine.

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