Which religion killed more people?

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » February 16th, 2013, 11:52 pm

Preciate your honesty man.

As far as creationism & evolution/big bang theory is concerned where do u stand?

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » February 18th, 2013, 4:30 pm

TarHeelRED wrote:Preciate your honesty man.

As far as creationism & evolution/big bang theory is concerned where do u stand?
I am all with the big bang theory, but i believe that its been created by god, just like evolution. It doesnt make sense to me that all this was a coincidence.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by warhawk90028 » January 7th, 2014, 8:50 pm

modern religion has. Judaisim, christianity, and Islam are the SAME RELIGION! collectively they have killed more than any faith/religion/ ideology that jas EVER existed! to preserve the fact that they all,"borrowed" heavily from ancient faiths.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by warhawk90028 » January 7th, 2014, 8:55 pm

modern religion has. Judaisim, christianity, and Islam are the SAME RELIGION! collectively they have killed more than any faith/religion/ ideology that jas EVER existed! to preserve the fact that they all,"borrowed" heavily from ancient faiths.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by warhawk90028 » January 7th, 2014, 9:09 pm

modern religion has. Judaisim, christianity, and Islam are the SAME RELIGION! collectively they have killed more than any faith/religion/ ideology that jas EVER existed! to preserve the fact that they all,"borrowed" heavily from ancient faiths.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 8th, 2014, 11:10 am

Sentenza wrote:
alexalonso wrote:Stalin and Hitler combined killed between 25 - 30 million people in the name of NO religion. If you look at leaders in the last 50 to 100 years that committed mass murder, most times it had nothing to do with religion. Rawanda I believe had nothing to do with religion, but Bosnia in the early 1990s may have been a religious genocide.
The worst mass murderers in history were atheist dictators in the 20th century.
Even though they established almost religious cults towards them. They replaced traditional religion with a cult of them being a messiah/leader and a set of rules which had to be followed like a religion.
Nazism or Stalinism or Maoism etc.
Neither Christianity nor Islam have ever shown such hostility against mankind like these guys.
Right on...


You know, I have long said Statism/ Communism/ Fascism etc are nothing more than religions and at times end up with cult leaders. They may not classify themselves as religions, but they fit the description of an actual religion in every way. These ideologies are not based on reason, evidence, or logic.

Some of the worst ones to ever practice these religions may reject the traditional religions and gods such as Christianity, Islam etc but only seek to replace them with their own religion, usually without even realizing it.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Lakko97 » January 15th, 2014, 9:16 am

You know, I have long said Statism/ Communism/ Fascism etc are nothing more than religions and at times end up with cult leaders. They may not classify themselves as religions, but they fit the description of an actual religion in every way. These ideologies are not based on reason, evidence, or logic.
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 25th, 2014, 10:37 am

Lakko97 wrote:
You know, I have long said Statism/ Communism/ Fascism etc are nothing more than religions and at times end up with cult leaders. They may not classify themselves as religions, but they fit the description of an actual religion in every way. These ideologies are not based on reason, evidence, or logic.
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.
barely seen this post, but I couldn't disagree more.I don't see how marxism is science, since it isn't based on reality in any way what so ever. It rejects human nature and action, it rejects careful logical deductive reasoning in the study of economics/human action. It is a dangerous doctrine that has resulted in some of the worlds worst man made catastrophes. I don't buy this typical idea that the communism imposed during the 20th century wasn't true marxism. The reason is because marxism is impossible, and if you do try to make it happen, you must impose it with brute force, making ruthless regimes a predictable outcome of trying to follow such a horrible "philosophy" such as marxism.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » January 25th, 2014, 11:53 am

I agree. Marxism in all its forms is an Utopia.

Because its image and analysis of humans is flawed in the first place.

They have to reeducate people and wipe out any opposition that leads to totalitarian oppression and all that follows with it.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 26th, 2014, 10:24 pm

Sentenza wrote:I agree. Marxism in all its forms is an Utopia.

Because its image and analysis of humans is flawed in the first place.

They have to reeducate people and wipe out any opposition that leads to totalitarian oppression and all that follows with it.
So that's what's happening here in America w/ the current administration. It's imposed 'lightly' but nonetheless imposed.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 26th, 2014, 10:46 pm

warhawk90028 wrote:modern religion has. Judaisim, christianity, and Islam are the SAME RELIGION! collectively they have killed more than any faith/religion/ ideology that jas EVER existed! to preserve the fact that they all,"borrowed" heavily from ancient faiths.
Obviously u haven't really studied these religions or ISMS!!!

Sure Christianity borrowed from Judaism- the 1st Christians were apostates 8) from Judaism and were actually Hebrew. Or should I say Christianity picked up where Judaism left off? Anyway......That's why u have the saying Judeo-Christian. Judaism rejects the factually Virgin born Messiah, Yeshua/Jesus- God incarnate. Those who believe in Judaism are waiting 4 the 1st Advent of the Savior whereas those who believe in some form of Christianity & who profess 2 be Christians are waiting 4 the promised Messiah 2 RETURN. That's 1 DIFFERENCE my friend!!!!!!

Islam however borrowed from Christianity & Judaism AND Indian faiths I hear. These 3 religions are no doubt distinct 1 from another.

Now those who believe that all truth is relative or all religions are equal may say that. But they also say that we evolved from some primordial ooze that had its inception in the ocean 'somehow' & 'climbed' onto land & thus billions & trillions of years later that same ooze became us. All without any evidence & yet we're 2 accept it by faith. :roll:

But as far as [adherents 2 ] religions who have murdered the most people go Islam/Muslims has the trophy. Catholicism use 2 be the champion back in the day but Islam surged ahead & snatched that crown away & will never be overtaken.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » January 27th, 2014, 12:08 am

TarHeelRED wrote:
Sentenza wrote:I agree. Marxism in all its forms is an Utopia.

Because its image and analysis of humans is flawed in the first place.

They have to reeducate people and wipe out any opposition that leads to totalitarian oppression and all that follows with it.
So that's what's happening here in America w/ the current administration. It's imposed 'lightly' but nonetheless imposed.
I dont see anything marxist about Obama, really.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 27th, 2014, 10:08 am

This might be an arguments of semantics but the USA regime is closer to fascism than outright Marxism. People think that you have to be like Hitler or a Nazi to be fascist, which isn't true.

Just think of the militarism of the US around the world, the spying, the drone killings, the NDAA, patriot act, gitmo/torture, the amount of people locked up in prison or the amount of people jailed for non-violent "offenses", the heavily regulated economy aka the corporatist system, the ever increasingly militarized local police, and so on. The USA certainly has gone in a authoritarian direction, but I don't think even our rulers would ever want Marxism, because Marxism is so bad that even they realize they would lose their wealth and power eventually too, so what we're left with is this public-private government run system. They call it "the middle ground."

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » January 27th, 2014, 12:46 pm

Yea corporatism, aka rule of the most powerful economical players. Its like dictatorship only with the big economic bosses in charge.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 27th, 2014, 8:25 pm

Sentenza wrote:
TarHeelRED wrote:
Sentenza wrote:I agree. Marxism in all its forms is an Utopia.

Because its image and analysis of humans is flawed in the first place.

They have to reeducate people and wipe out any opposition that leads to totalitarian oppression and all that follows with it.
So that's what's happening here in America w/ the current administration. It's imposed 'lightly' but nonetheless imposed.
I dont see anything marxist about Obama, really.
The Left in America & perhaps worldwide wants Socialism- which eventually leads 2 Communism and/or Marxism???????- imposed here in America. We're the last beacon of hope & freedom on the earth. Those who back a NWO says the Constitution of the US is thee impediment of it being implemented.

Slowly but surely they've been chipping away by overstepping, eroding, & undermining the Constitution in every administration so that eventually it will occur. Even though Socialism has NEVER endured in any nation, there are those who still 'hope' 2 perfect it & get it right. Is the USSA- United Socialist States of America too far of a stretch? Only if u depend on & get all or most of your 'news' from the mainstream media's newspapers, tv shows, & websites.

Hitler didn't take over Germany & half of Europe in 1 night: he did it piecemeal, bit by bit. And voila, then came the Nazi Party (which had its outset in a homosexual bar in Berlin I believe) ruling Germany & eventually most of Europe.

"We learn from history, that we don't learn from history."
― Desmond Tutu

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 27th, 2014, 8:39 pm

People think fascism and socialism are opposites of the spectrum but they're not. Fascism is just a form of socialism. Public private partnerships, militarism, no respect for civil liberties or individual rights, the collective trumps the individual. That's the direction America is going in and has been for decades, but things got worse after 9 11. It didn't start with Obama, Obama just continued it.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by punamusta » January 28th, 2014, 9:12 am

Lakko97 wrote:
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.
I agree with you.
RuthlessCray wrote:It rejects human nature and action, it rejects careful logical deductive reasoning in the study of economics/human action.
Please explain more how marxism rejects human nature and action. Keep in mind than humans are not selfish by nature, as capitalists and other selfish people like to claim. We wouldn't be here today if we would be selfish by our nature.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » January 28th, 2014, 10:08 am

TarHeelRED wrote:

The Left in America & perhaps worldwide wants Socialism- which eventually leads 2 Communism and/or Marxism???????- imposed here in America. We're the last beacon of hope & freedom on the earth. Those who back a NWO says the Constitution of the US is thee impediment of it being implemented.
Not everything on the left is socialist. To be honest with you, americans have been manipulated into thinking that way through propaganda. You guys have been exposed to the same amount of propaganda as the rest of the world during the cold war, just from a different angle.
Big government state is not automatically socialism. In most of the world even conservatives and right wingers are for big government, including religious people. As a matter of fact America is the exception to the rule and not the norm.
In Germany for example, public healthcare was introduced by christian conservatives under Bismarck in the 1880s.
Nothing socialist about that.
To a real original socialist, true to the original teachings, the american left and liberals do not even count as leftist, they are slightly leaning to the right from that perspective. To those people there is no noteworthy "Left" at all in america, let alone obama.


TarHeelRED wrote:
Slowly but surely they've been chipping away by overstepping, eroding, & undermining the Constitution in every administration so that eventually it will occur. Even though Socialism has NEVER endured in any nation, there are those who still 'hope' 2 perfect it & get it right. Is the USSA- United Socialist States of America too far of a stretch? Only if u depend on & get all or most of your 'news' from the mainstream media's newspapers, tv shows, & websites.

Hitler didn't take over Germany & half of Europe in 1 night: he did it piecemeal, bit by bit. And voila, then came the Nazi Party (which had its outset in a homosexual bar in Berlin I believe) ruling Germany & eventually most of Europe.

"We learn from history, that we don't learn from history."
― Desmond Tutu
Not sure where to start, but the Nazis started off in Munich in a staunchly conservative environment. He held his famous speeches not in a gay bar, but in the Bürgerbräukeller, which is a famous beer hall in Munich.
Gays were despised and killed by the Nazis just as most of them hated Berlin. It was too jewish ( i think 50% of all German jews lived there back then), too leftist, too artsy for the german conservative of that time.
It took Hitler 6 years to annex parts of the Czech republic and Austria and kick off World War 2. He wasnt really slow and didnt even hide his goals. He put it all out there in his book "Mein Kampf" in 1923. Everybody knew it, everybody supported it, there was no secret agenda. You also have to remember, back then christians in Europe hated jews the most, they always have been different from american christians.


I dont see Obama heading into a socialist direction at all. He is a big supporter of big money in politics and corporatist policy which has nothing to do with socialism. He is even more aggressive in plenty of aspects then both of the Bush presidents (like foreign policy etc.). He is straight out capitalist, its just that the old school libertarians in the US are dying out. Not even the Neo-Cons are old school libertarians anymore. They are all for big spying, big money in politics, for the military–industrial complex, big government control, aggressive foreign policy and corporatism. But thats not socialism.
Thats the path all deregulated capitalist systems goes. The big dogs in the economy sooner or later buy the power in the country.
Socialism is pretty much dead. Corporatism isnt. Its flourishing as we can see.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 28th, 2014, 10:38 am

punamusta wrote:
Lakko97 wrote:
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.
I agree with you.
RuthlessCray wrote:It rejects human nature and action, it rejects careful logical deductive reasoning in the study of economics/human action.
Please explain more how marxism rejects human nature and action. Keep in mind than humans are not selfish by nature, as capitalists and other selfish people like to claim. We wouldn't be here today if we would be selfish by our nature.

Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.


I prefer the term "The Market." Because that's all it is. The market economy is what takes place when people voluntarily make exchanges without the use of force, coercion or violence.

As far as Marxism, I don't have time right now to get into it all, but for starters, hardcore Marxists want to abolish all private property and money itself. This is extremely problematic and dangerous as has been shown both in theory and in practice. Without private property, nobody has an incentive to take care of land or capital, without money, trade breaks down and the division of labor is gone( say goodbye to virtually every profession).

Even many commies today wouldn't go that far and abolish all money and property, but that's just two examples of how absurd true Marxism is.

Then you have this idea among Marxist and all socialists today, this obsession with equality, which is pretty evil.

Nobody is equally the same, we all have different weakness and strengths, different talents, different intelligence levels, different athletic abilities, different goals and desires, etc. Yet socialists want equality...Not everybody want's to be forced to be the same, that goes against nature. Let man be who he was born to be!

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 28th, 2014, 10:53 am

Sentenza wrote:
TarHeelRED wrote:

The Left in America & perhaps worldwide wants Socialism- which eventually leads 2 Communism and/or Marxism???????- imposed here in America. We're the last beacon of hope & freedom on the earth. Those who back a NWO says the Constitution of the US is thee impediment of it being implemented.
Not everything on the left is socialist. To be honest with you, americans have been manipulated into thinking that way through propaganda. You guys have been exposed to the same amount of propaganda as the rest of the world during the cold war, just from a different angle.
Big government state is not automatically socialism. In most of the world even conservatives and right wingers are for big government, including religious people. As a matter of fact America is the exception to the rule and not the norm.
In Germany for example, public healthcare was introduced by christian conservatives under Bismarck in the 1880s.
Nothing socialist about that.
To a real original socialist, true to the original teachings, the american left and liberals do not even count as leftist, they are slightly leaning to the right from that perspective. To those people there is no noteworthy "Left" at all in america, let alone obama.


TarHeelRED wrote:
Slowly but surely they've been chipping away by overstepping, eroding, & undermining the Constitution in every administration so that eventually it will occur. Even though Socialism has NEVER endured in any nation, there are those who still 'hope' 2 perfect it & get it right. Is the USSA- United Socialist States of America too far of a stretch? Only if u depend on & get all or most of your 'news' from the mainstream media's newspapers, tv shows, & websites.

Hitler didn't take over Germany & half of Europe in 1 night: he did it piecemeal, bit by bit. And voila, then came the Nazi Party (which had its outset in a homosexual bar in Berlin I believe) ruling Germany & eventually most of Europe.

"We learn from history, that we don't learn from history."
― Desmond Tutu
Not sure where to start, but the Nazis started off in Munich in a staunchly conservative environment. He held his famous speeches not in a gay bar, but in the Bürgerbräukeller, which is a famous beer hall in Munich.
Gays were despised and killed by the Nazis just as most of them hated Berlin. It was too jewish ( i think 50% of all German jews lived there back then), too leftist, too artsy for the german conservative of that time.
It took Hitler 6 years to annex parts of the Czech republic and Austria and kick off World War 2. He wasnt really slow and didnt even hide his goals. He put it all out there in his book "Mein Kampf" in 1923. Everybody knew it, everybody supported it, there was no secret agenda. You also have to remember, back then christians in Europe hated jews the most, they always have been different from american christians.


I dont see Obama heading into a socialist direction at all. He is a big supporter of big money in politics and corporatist policy which has nothing to do with socialism. He is even more aggressive in plenty of aspects then both of the Bush presidents (like foreign policy etc.). He is straight out capitalist, its just that the old school libertarians in the US are dying out. Not even the Neo-Cons are old school libertarians anymore. They are all for big spying, big money in politics, for the military–industrial complex, big government control, aggressive foreign policy and corporatism. But thats not socialism.
Thats the path all deregulated capitalist systems goes. The big dogs in the economy sooner or later buy the power in the country.
Socialism is pretty much dead. Corporatism isnt. Its flourishing as we can see.
I don't see Socialism and Corporatism as being opposing forces. There's just different flavors of Socialism. There's socialism for the poor( Take from the rich/middle class and give to the poor), and government run institutions (public school system, socialized medicine etc), and then there's socialism for the rich (govt bailouts of corporations, politicians pandering to the military industrial complex, regulations on the financial sector that crush competition and build up the big corporations, central banking).

In the US, we have a mixture of both. Either way, it is a statist paradigm..Call it socialism, fascism, corporatism, Left Wing or Right wing, it is still Statist based.

BTW, Neo cons have never been libertarian. Neo cons have always been arch enemies. Their major influence was originally Leo Strauss, and most of them came from the Left, as communists and socialists. They were basically statists leftists that went to the Right during the Vietnam war and cold war. They were all for government control of everything except unlike the Left during that era, the Neo Cons were Pro war.

The US doesn't have a deregulated capitalist system. It has the opposite. (Central banking, hundreds of regulatory agencies overseeing the financial sector, complex tax codes, etc etc)

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by punamusta » January 28th, 2014, 11:24 am

RuthlessCray wrote:
Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.
The term "capitalism" is widely used in all over the world so I don't see any problem in that. Of course you can talk about markets, but those markets (in western world) are based on capitalism.

Here in Finland we used to work for 6 days in a week, 12 hours per day with a ridiculously small payment, before the socialists here in the 60's changed it to a 5 day week with 8 hours per day. They also brought us the welfare system. If the corporations could decide, we would still be working with a small payment and long days, because for them it's beneficial.
The market economy is what takes place when people voluntarily make exchanges without the use of force, coercion or violence.
There really is no fair markets in todays world. The current day markets are dominated by big corporations and big nations. The ones that are weaker than those corporations/nations, are the ones who are on the losing side. Also violence is widely used in todays economy. For example USA has went in for many countries and toke their oil or other natural resources. Also a lot of government takeovers are done because of the money, to ensure better conditions for foreing nations to make money in those countries. You must know how example IMF works. Just look what they did in Argentina, for example.
As far as Marxism, I don't have time right now to get into it all, but for starters, hardcore Marxists want to abolish all private property and money itself.
I've never heard of a Marxist who would want to get rid of the money.
Then you have this idea among Marxist and all socialists today, this obsession with equality, which is pretty evil.

Nobody is equally the same, we all have different weakness and strengths, different talents, different intelligence levels, different athletic abilities, different goals and desires, etc. Yet socialists want equality...Not everybody want's to be forced to be the same, that goes against nature. Let man be who he was born to be!
Why being equal is evil? Of course we are all equal. Some are stronger, some are smarter, but nevertheless we are still equal and deserve worthy life of a human being. The stronger ones have a responsibility to help the weaker ones. That's how a normal human being works. And that's how we have survived through the times. At stone-age there were no way a single person could have owned 95% of all the whale fat and meat by himself while the others would have had to survive with only that 5% of it. That selfish person would have been ended up dead so fast, as people understand that it would've been wrong and threaten the surviving of all the rest.

Private property owning is not a problem if it happens in a reasonable boundaries. But today 85 of the world's most richest people own more than 3,5 billion poor people do. That really is a problem. No C.E.O. should ever earn more than 10 times what the lowest paid worker in the company does. And I think 50% of every corporation should be owned by the workers, as the workers are the most important asset for any company.

But if you have time, I would still like to hear how Marxism rejects human nature and action.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 28th, 2014, 12:30 pm

punamusta wrote:
RuthlessCray wrote:
Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.
The term "capitalism" is widely used in all over the world so I don't see any problem in that. Of course you can talk about markets, but those markets (in western world) are based on capitalism.

Here in Finland we used to work for 6 days in a week, 12 hours per day with a ridiculously small payment, before the socialists here in the 60's changed it to a 5 day week with 8 hours per day. They also brought us the welfare system. If the corporations could decide, we would still be working with a small payment and long days, because for them it's beneficial.

Here's the thing most people don't understand about "capital" in the true sense of the word. Capital, as in factories, machines, tools and things that are owned and accumulated over time that make human beings more efficient, productive, and allows for more leisure. The more Capitalism there is, the less hours people have to work, and less hard they have to work.

The socialists that come and change the work week are only doing so after the fact..They may at times do it prematurely because maybe some people actually want to work more hours, and they should have every right to do so. But the point is, they wouldn't be able to make these policies in a world without capitalism. Think about it. PreCapitalist times, trying to limit how much hours a person can work...It might wind up forcing some people to starve. Since the lack of machines, tools, the things that make humans more productive than if they used their bare hands were either not available or not commonly owned, this means society can produce very little which means very little to go around.

It is the same thing with child labor. Socialists and the like love to claim victory over abolishing child labor. As if all parents through out history hated their children and wanted to see them work! Obviously, children always worked because that was what it took to survive. It was only until society became so productive due to the market economy with it's capital, that anyone ever contemplated abolishing child labor. Thanks to capitalism, we have more free time and don't have to work hard all day just to eat.
I mean, what's more productive, a guy digging with his hands ,a shovel or a guy with a tractor? These are labor saving devices that free up time for people to do other things, like sit at home or go to school. The socialists didn't magically make this happen with the stroke of a pin, that's an illusion.
Before "capitalism" everybody lived in poverty, even the richest Kings and Emperors by today standards.
People may have been more equal then, equally poor by today's standards.


The market economy is what takes place when people voluntarily make exchanges without the use of force, coercion or violence.
There really is no fair markets in todays world. The current day markets are dominated by big corporations and big nations. The ones that are weaker than those corporations/nations, are the ones who are on the losing side. Also violence is widely used in todays economy. For example USA has went in for many countries and toke their oil or other natural resources. Also a lot of government takeovers are done because of the money, to ensure better conditions for foreing nations to make money in those countries. You must know how example IMF works. Just look what they did in Argentina, for example.
Well I agree. I don't support the IMF, central banking, corporatism, militarism or any of that. All of that is the opposite of non-violence voluntarily made exchanges in a market economy. It's a statist paradigm we live in.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 28th, 2014, 12:59 pm

punamusta wrote:
As far as Marxism, I don't have time right now to get into it all, but for starters, hardcore Marxists want to abolish all private property and money itself.
I've never heard of a Marxist who would want to get rid of the money.
I believe there are still Marxists out there that want to abolish money and there are others that don't argue this. I guess it depends on what Marxist camp they come from.
Then you have this idea among Marxist and all socialists today, this obsession with equality, which is pretty evil.

Nobody is equally the same, we all have different weakness and strengths, different talents, different intelligence levels, different athletic abilities, different goals and desires, etc. Yet socialists want equality...Not everybody want's to be forced to be the same, that goes against nature. Let man be who he was born to be!
Why being equal is evil? Of course we are all equal. Some are stronger, some are smarter, but nevertheless we are still equal and deserve worthy life of a human being. The stronger ones have a responsibility to help the weaker ones. That's how a normal human being works. And that's how we have survived through the times. At stone-age there were no way a single person could have owned 95% of all the whale fat and meat by himself while the others would have had to survive with only that 5% of it. That selfish person would have been ended up dead so fast, as people understand that it would've been wrong and threaten the surviving of all the rest.

Private property owning is not a problem if it happens in a reasonable boundaries. But today 85 of the world's most richest people own more than 3,5 billion poor people do. That really is a problem. No C.E.O. should ever earn more than 10 times what the lowest paid worker in the company does. And I think 50% of every corporation should be owned by the workers, as the workers are the most important asset for any company.

But if you have time, I would still like to hear how Marxism rejects human nature and action.[/quote]

I think we are all equally entitled to rights to life, and I'm a supporter of self ownership, meaning we should all "own" our own bodies. I just don't believe in trying to force equal outcomes or socially engineering people into being equal. Let's respect individuality. I don't care if some CEO owns more shit than me, I'm content with who I am. There's more to life than the fact that somebody somewhere has accumulated more materialistic wealth .
Not only that, but wealth is something that is generated through time. There's not this one size pie of all wealth that needs to be evenly distributed. With less violence and respect for individual rights, that "pie" ironically gets larger, meaning more to go around for everybody.

As far as human nature goes, your talking about tribalism and family in the way we evolved. This is a whole other rant I can go on..

Yes people evolved in fairly small tribes and close knit family units, where we looked out for each other, shared , hunted together in order to survive. But we did not evolve in tribes in 300 million or 3 billion or any other hard to imagine kind of number. That's where socialists go wrong...They confuse statist redistribution of wealth with the same thing as a family or a trible working together.. You can't centrally plan for and take care of the needs of such a massive amount of people.. You can take care of your own, your family, your close knit circle of people, because you know them, you know their needs and we evolved that way. This is a good thing...
The State on the other hand, would like to abolish the family structure and close tight knit communities based on the 'Let's help ourselves and our community' mentality and replace it with statist bureaucracy. Then, the government becomes your daddie, and also a false form of charity and welfare, then the family breaks down, chaos and destruction ensues.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 12:27 pm

RuthlessCray wrote:People think fascism and socialism are opposites of the spectrum but they're not. Fascism is just a form of socialism. Public private partnerships, militarism, no respect for civil liberties or individual rights, the collective trumps the individual. That's the direction America is going in and has been for decades, but things got worse after 9 11. It didn't start with Obama, Obama just continued it.

I agree 1000% Ruthless!!!!!! Keep educating us homes.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 12:35 pm

Sentenza wrote:
TarHeelRED wrote:

The Left in America & perhaps worldwide wants Socialism- which eventually leads 2 Communism and/or Marxism???????- imposed here in America. We're the last beacon of hope & freedom on the earth. Those who back a NWO says the Constitution of the US is thee impediment of it being implemented.
Not everything on the left is socialist. To be honest with you, americans have been manipulated into thinking that way through propaganda. You guys have been exposed to the same amount of propaganda as the rest of the world during the cold war, just from a different angle.
Big government state is not automatically socialism. In most of the world even conservatives and right wingers are for big government, including religious people. As a matter of fact America is the exception to the rule and not the norm.
In Germany for example, public healthcare was introduced by christian conservatives under Bismarck in the 1880s.
Nothing socialist about that.
To a real original socialist, true to the original teachings, the american left and liberals do not even count as leftist, they are slightly leaning to the right from that perspective. To those people there is no noteworthy "Left" at all in america, let alone obama.


TarHeelRED wrote:
Slowly but surely they've been chipping away by overstepping, eroding, & undermining the Constitution in every administration so that eventually it will occur. Even though Socialism has NEVER endured in any nation, there are those who still 'hope' 2 perfect it & get it right. Is the USSA- United Socialist States of America too far of a stretch? Only if u depend on & get all or most of your 'news' from the mainstream media's newspapers, tv shows, & websites.

Hitler didn't take over Germany & half of Europe in 1 night: he did it piecemeal, bit by bit. And voila, then came the Nazi Party (which had its outset in a homosexual bar in Berlin I believe) ruling Germany & eventually most of Europe.

"We learn from history, that we don't learn from history."
― Desmond Tutu
Not sure where to start, but the Nazis started off in Munich in a staunchly conservative environment. He held his famous speeches not in a gay bar, but in the Bürgerbräukeller, which is a famous beer hall in Munich.
Gays were despised and killed by the Nazis just as most of them hated Berlin. It was too jewish ( i think 50% of all German jews lived there back then), too leftist, too artsy for the german conservative of that time.
It took Hitler 6 years to annex parts of the Czech republic and Austria and kick off World War 2. He wasnt really slow and didnt even hide his goals. He put it all out there in his book "Mein Kampf" in 1923. Everybody knew it, everybody supported it, there was no secret agenda. You also have to remember, back then christians in Europe hated jews the most, they always have been different from american christians.


I dont see Obama heading into a socialist direction at all. He is a big supporter of big money in politics and corporatist policy which has nothing to do with socialism. He is even more aggressive in plenty of aspects then both of the Bush presidents (like foreign policy etc.). He is straight out capitalist, its just that the old school libertarians in the US are dying out. Not even the Neo-Cons are old school libertarians anymore. They are all for big spying, big money in politics, for the military–industrial complex, big government control, aggressive foreign policy and corporatism. But thats not socialism.
Thats the path all deregulated capitalist systems goes. The big dogs in the economy sooner or later buy the power in the country.
Socialism is pretty much dead. Corporatism isnt. Its flourishing as we can see.
Senten: I COMPLETELY DISAGREE W/ YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT!!!!

Sometimes I share my 'thoughts, opinions, perspectives, or even facts' & u disagree. Sometimes u share your 'thoughts, opinions, perspectives, & etc.' & I disagree. Its all good. Most times we agree 2 disagree & sometimes we agree. Again, its all good.

At least we provoke thought & keep the board going.

But again, I COMPLETELY DISAGREE W/ YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT!!!!

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 12:52 pm

RuthlessCray wrote:
punamusta wrote:
Lakko97 wrote:
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.
I agree with you.
RuthlessCray wrote:It rejects human nature and action, it rejects careful logical deductive reasoning in the study of economics/human action.
Please explain more how marxism rejects human nature and action. Keep in mind than humans are not selfish by nature, as capitalists and other selfish people like to claim. We wouldn't be here today if we would be selfish by our nature.

Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.


I prefer the term "The Market." Because that's all it is. The market economy is what takes place when people voluntarily make exchanges without the use of force, coercion or violence.

As far as Marxism, I don't have time right now to get into it all, but for starters, hardcore Marxists want to abolish all private property and money itself. This is extremely problematic and dangerous as has been shown both in theory and in practice. Without private property, nobody has an incentive to take care of land or capital, without money, trade breaks down and the division of labor is gone( say goodbye to virtually every profession).

Even many commies today wouldn't go that far and abolish all money and property, but that's just two examples of how absurd true Marxism is.

Then you have this idea among Marxist and all socialists today, this obsession with equality, which is pretty evil.

Nobody is equally the same, we all have different weakness and strengths, different talents, different intelligence levels, different athletic abilities, different goals and desires, etc. Yet socialists want equality...Not everybody want's to be forced to be the same, that goes against nature. Let man be who he was born to be!
This is 1 example of Obama's agenda: pushing this inequality income on the American people. This is part of what the SOTU speech was about last night. 4 ex: his whole argument on wage disparity between men & women. The 1 thing he fails or probably omits 2 mention is that men work more weekly hours & accrue more overtime hrs than women do. Thus in many cases, men accrue more wages than women do. If women want 2 merge & void that 'disparity' they can work more hours too. But I'm just some conspiracy theorist seeking 'truth' & not ingesting the president's & the Left's worldview & propaganda, so don't pay me no mind.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 1:46 pm

RuthlessCray wrote:
punamusta wrote:
RuthlessCray wrote:
Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.
The term "capitalism" is widely used in all over the world so I don't see any problem in that. Of course you can talk about markets, but those markets (in western world) are based on capitalism.

Here in Finland we used to work for 6 days in a week, 12 hours per day with a ridiculously small payment, before the socialists here in the 60's changed it to a 5 day week with 8 hours per day. They also brought us the welfare system. If the corporations could decide, we would still be working with a small payment and long days, because for them it's beneficial.

Here's the thing most people don't understand about "capital" in the true sense of the word. Capital, as in factories, machines, tools and things that are owned and accumulated over time that make human beings more efficient, productive, and allows for more leisure. The more Capitalism there is, the less hours people have to work, and less hard they have to work.

The socialists that come and change the work week are only doing so after the fact..They may at times do it prematurely because maybe some people actually want to work more hours, and they should have every right to do so. But the point is, they wouldn't be able to make these policies in a world without capitalism. Think about it. PreCapitalist times, trying to limit how much hours a person can work...It might wind up forcing some people to starve. Since the lack of machines, tools, the things that make humans more productive than if they used their bare hands were either not available or not commonly owned, this means society can produce very little which means very little to go around.

It is the same thing with child labor. Socialists and the like love to claim victory over abolishing child labor. As if all parents through out history hated their children and wanted to see them work! Obviously, children always worked because that was what it took to survive. It was only until society became so productive due to the market economy with it's capital, that anyone ever contemplated abolishing child labor. Thanks to capitalism, we have more free time and don't have to work hard all day just to eat.
I mean, what's more productive, a guy digging with his hands ,a shovel or a guy with a tractor? These are labor saving devices that free up time for people to do other things, like sit at home or go to school. The socialists didn't magically make this happen with the stroke of a pin, that's an illusion.
Before "capitalism" everybody lived in poverty, even the richest Kings and Emperors by today standards.
People may have been more equal then, equally poor by today's standards.
Good read man. This is how I would define 'capitalism' or the Free Market.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by RuthlessCray » January 29th, 2014, 2:59 pm

TarHeelRED wrote:
RuthlessCray wrote:
punamusta wrote:
Lakko97 wrote:
Sorry man but I must correct you. If you speak about communism, is there more ways which we have to differentiate. There is classical utopist communism, which had roots in Antique Greece. Then there is the marxist communism, or better marxism, which is science.

But you are right if you are talking about communist regimes of 20. century, it was real religion there (I´m from Slovakia, Czechoslovakia in the past, we were socialist republic, before 1989), but it wasnt real communist ideology, it wasnt marxism even in contradiction of regimes, which were presented as "marxism in practice".

I am studying sociology and economics, were marxism have dominant position, nowadays, in crisis and social presure an increasing. But I hate "communism" of former regimes, it was doctrine, not a science as marxism is. You said that communism is unlogical. This is not true. Marxism is build on dialectic and historic materialism philosophy, still unbeaten philosophy.

About fascism; Like I said, I am from Slovakia, in 1938-1945 there was nazi occupation. The fascism is really unlogical theory. Everyone, you, me, muslim, black, white, jew, christian - we are humans, the same sort. This division to religions or other was made by society and culture. And how about colors of skin? Only evolution of our species (humas from sunny lands are black, because it is defensive ability from the sun).

So, thats why we can not compare marxism and fascism as the same.
I agree with you.
RuthlessCray wrote:It rejects human nature and action, it rejects careful logical deductive reasoning in the study of economics/human action.
Please explain more how marxism rejects human nature and action. Keep in mind than humans are not selfish by nature, as capitalists and other selfish people like to claim. We wouldn't be here today if we would be selfish by our nature.

Well that's kind of a strawman. "Capitalists" don't all assume humans to be selfish by nature. Not every "capitalist is an Ayn Randian/Objectivist. Secondly, the term "capitalism" is just a pejorative term created by Marx. I guess in order to demonize "capital", you know, the stuff that we need to accumulate so that we don't regress back to working 17 hours on a farm with our bare hands in order to survive or hunt our own food, find our own water.


I prefer the term "The Market." Because that's all it is. The market economy is what takes place when people voluntarily make exchanges without the use of force, coercion or violence.

As far as Marxism, I don't have time right now to get into it all, but for starters, hardcore Marxists want to abolish all private property and money itself. This is extremely problematic and dangerous as has been shown both in theory and in practice. Without private property, nobody has an incentive to take care of land or capital, without money, trade breaks down and the division of labor is gone( say goodbye to virtually every profession).

Even many commies today wouldn't go that far and abolish all money and property, but that's just two examples of how absurd true Marxism is.

Then you have this idea among Marxist and all socialists today, this obsession with equality, which is pretty evil.

Nobody is equally the same, we all have different weakness and strengths, different talents, different intelligence levels, different athletic abilities, different goals and desires, etc. Yet socialists want equality...Not everybody want's to be forced to be the same, that goes against nature. Let man be who he was born to be!
This is 1 example of Obama's agenda: pushing this inequality income on the American people. This is part of what the SOTU speech was about last night. 4 ex: his whole argument on wage disparity between men & women. The 1 thing he fails or probably omits 2 mention is that men work more weekly hours & accrue more overtime hrs than women do. Thus in many cases, men accrue more wages than women do. If women want 2 merge & void that 'disparity' they can work more hours too. But I'm just some conspiracy theorist seeking 'truth' & not ingesting the president's & the Left's worldview & propaganda, so don't pay me no mind.

I can't bare to watch these 3rd grade low level propaganda speeches coming from the regime anymore. But yeah the women and men disparity is BS. If you compare woman that don't have kids and are more career orientated then the disparity goes away..

I wills ay that there does exist a "artificial" disparity between rich and poor than would normally exist in a market economy but it isn't because of the "evil" free market but because of barriers to entry in different sectors and central banking . That is a whole other rant for another day.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 3:30 pm

RuthlessCray wrote: Yes people evolved in fairly small tribes and close knit family units, where we looked out for each other, shared , hunted together in order to survive. But we did not evolve in tribes in 300 million or 3 billion or any other hard to imagine kind of number. That's where socialists go wrong...They confuse statist redistribution of wealth with the same thing as a family or a trible working together.. You can't centrally plan for and take care of the needs of such a massive amount of people.. You can take care of your own, your family, your close knit circle of people, because you know them, you know their needs and we evolved that way. This is a good thing...
The State on the other hand, would like to abolish the family structure and close tight knit communities based on the 'Let's help ourselves and our community' mentality and replace it with statist bureaucracy. Then, the government becomes your daddie, and also a false form of charity and welfare, then the family breaks down, chaos and destruction ensues.
HELLO!!! I concur with everything Ruthless said EXCEPT THE 'EVOLVED' & evolution part.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by TarHeelRED » January 29th, 2014, 3:59 pm

punamusta wrote:Keep in mind than humans are not selfish by nature, as capitalists and other selfish people like to claim. We wouldn't be here today if we would be selfish by our nature.
Humans ARE indeed selfish by nature, that is by our SIN NATURE! Selfishness is in every human being conceived from the sperm & the egg. Capitalist, socialist, repugnantcan, dumbocrat, independent, marxist, statist, saved, unsaved & etc. all have selfishness as well as covetousness, idolatry, theft, murder, envy, strife, lying, pride, & etc. in our sin nature or by nature. When Eve & Adam defied YHVH by eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil they died spiritually & thus all of the aforementioned things & even more are in our sin natures.


Psalm 14:1,3: "[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

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Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by Sentenza » January 29th, 2014, 4:05 pm

No offense, but its gonna be difficult to find a european that believes in all that stuff with the psalms and yehova etc.
Thats what amazes me about american forums. Youll find plenty of people using religion as a serious argument.

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Location: from cpt to vegas up to paris its blue and gold ogk1 reppin sw pj south 1-tray cripppin

Re: Which religion killed more people?

Unread post by bgcasper » January 30th, 2014, 6:00 am


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