A few questions for the Christians in here

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Sentenza
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A few questions for the Christians in here

Unread post by Sentenza » July 21st, 2005, 5:33 pm

During the time i spent on thinking and reading about the Bible and Christian Religion, i came across a few things that didnt make sense to me. Maybe you guys can enlighten me.

1. Why do Christians keep believing that Jews killed Jesus?
It is a known fact that the Romans crucified him and Pontius Pilatus gave the order to do so.
Yes, there were Jews who wanted to see him dead, but Roman Law of that time allowed no executions without permission of a Roman Pro Consul.
Pontius Pilatus was the man of that Region in Jesus times and he and the Romans are responsible for Jesus death. Sad that this historical misunderstanding has lead to such things like the Holocaust.

2. Why do Priests, Monks etc. have to live in Celibacy?
As far as i know, Jesus was a Jewish Priest in his earlier time. From the very start of existence it has been an obligation for Jewish Priests to have children BEFORE they can become a Rabbin.
This is because it is considered essential in the Jewish Religion to have children so that you have knowledge about life.
Celibacy is a man made lie that came out of the uptight minds of Christians in the Dark Ages.

3. Why do fundamental Christians reject alcohol when Jesus is said to have water turned into wine? For which reason else should he have done that, than to drink it?

There are more things on my mind which i will post later.
Thanks for any contributions.

Peace

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Re: A few questions for the Christians in here

Unread post by Lonewolf » July 21st, 2005, 8:18 pm

Sentenza wrote:1. Why do Christians keep believing that Jews killed Jesus?
It is a known fact that the Romans crucified him and Pontius Pilatus gave the order to do so.
Yes, there were Jews who wanted to see him dead, but Roman Law of that time allowed no executions without permission of a Roman Pro Consul.
Pontius Pilatus was the man of that Region in Jesus times and he and the Romans are responsible for Jesus death. Sad that this historical misunderstanding has lead to such things like the Holocaust.
Official Christian doctrine “no longer” holds that Jews killed Jesus.

Some who were and/or are of this position, comes from the following analogy in scriptures.

The Gospels sources depict a scene in which "the Jews," given the choice of saving Barrabas or Jesus from crucifixion, chose Barrabas (a Jewish militant rebel leader).

Politically, we know that some Jewish leaders (who were appointed by the Roman Government to keep the people in line) may have seen Jesus not only as a religious threat, but as a political threat as well. However, the political threat was more to the Romans, and the Jewish leaders used this political threat of “Jesus Kingship,” when they surrendered him under such accusation to the Roman authorities.

A man suspected of being a messianic (Christ/King) pretender could be delivered to the Romans without a verdict of the Jewish high court. In addition, the high priests were interested in getting rid of Jesus, who had spoken against them and had predicted the destruction of the Temple. Jesus teaching on the true Kingdom of God, his association with marginal groups in his society, and his attacks on abuses associated with the Temple made him suspect to both the Jewish & Roman “Jerusalem aristocracy,” who saw him as a destabilizing force to their rule.

The Roman public reason given in the placard on the cross (INRI), recorded in all four Gospels, was that Jesus “claimed to be a King,” which for the Romans was tantamount to sedition., this is also evident with those others who were crucified alongside Jesus, who are described and called "revolutionary bandits".

Why were the Romans instead of the Jews, the executioners?

Matthew’s Gospel records an informal (unlawful) Jewish "night" trial, with accusations, and false witnesses. Luke records a morning hearing before the Sanhedrin (Jewish high court) “without formal sentencing,” and John’s Gospel has separate appearances before the high priests Annas (at night) and Caiaphas (in the morning) who conducts an “interrogation.”

Jewish laws on capital trials are found in texts almost two centuries after the death of Jesus, so it is not clearly known whether they reflect first-century practice.

By these norms the trial by the Jews -under Jewish law, is “not legal,” since according to the laws, capital trials could not be held at night or on the eve of a Sabbath or feast day. Also the sentence of death could not be pronounced on the same day as the trial; prior examination of witnesses, as well as independent agreement of their testimony, was required; the charge of blasphemy required the explicit pronouncing of the divine name; and trials were to be held in the official chamber, not in the house of the high priest.

It is uncertain whether the Sanhedrin (Jewish religious authorities/high court) had the power to execute for “capital” offenses during Roman occupation. If so, Jesus should have been stoned, which was the Jewish penalty for blasphemy.

Though some interrogation or informal trial may have taken place before the Jewish authorities, the Romans bear the responsibility for any “formal trial.” All the texts agree that the Roman prefect (governor), Pontius Pilate, ordered the execution. The execution was in the Roman way, by crucifixion. The “final” decision for the execution lay with the Romans, who alone had the authority to impose the death penalty under such auspices (charge of sedition), and used crucifixion as a means of killing criminals and "enemies of the state."

The Gospel of Matthew Chapter 26

Verse 57
And they (Jews) that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the “high priest,” where the scribes and the “elders” were assembled.

Verse 59
Now the “chief priests”, and “elders”, and “all the council,” sought "false witness" against Jesus, to put him to death;

Verse 63
But Jesus held his peace.
And the high priest answered and and said unto him,
I adjure thee by the living God, that thou teel us wether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Verse 64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Verse 65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He (Jesus) hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Verse 66
What think ye?
They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

The Gospel of Matthew Chapter 27

Verse 1
When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Verse 2
And when they had bound him, they led him away, and "delivered him" to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Verse 11
And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor (Pilate) asked him, saying, "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
And Jesus said unto him, "Thou sayest."

Verse 12
And when he (Jesus) was accused of the chief priests and elders,
he answered nothing.

Verse 19
For he (Pilate) knew that "for envy they had delivered him" (Jesus).

Verse 22
Pilate said unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?

"They (Jews) all say unto him, let him (Jesus) be crucified."

Verse 23
And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done?
But they (Jews) cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

Verse 24
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail nothing, but that rather a “tumult” was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: se ye to it.

Verse 25
Then answered all the people, and said,
“His blood be on us, and on our children.”

Verse 29
And when they (Roman soldiers) had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews.”

Verse 37
And set up over his head his accusation (charge) written,
"THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~x~

The Jews of these time in history, wanted a "temporal ruler" to save them from the Roman authorities, but instead were confronted with a "spiritual ruler (Jesus),” whom they (the Jewish religious authorities) considered a threat to their power. For that reason, they conspired and brought on false witness against Jesus, and conspired to have him"put to death."

"True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God (according to the New Testament), the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it then, that in "catechetical" work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."

“It is not who killed Christ that is important but who He died for.”

Sentenza
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Unread post by Sentenza » July 22nd, 2005, 1:21 pm

I hope fundamentalists hear you lonewolf. Because all anti jewish pogroms in history are rooted in that story.

Sentenza
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Re: A few questions for the Christians in here

Unread post by Sentenza » July 22nd, 2005, 2:20 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Verse 19
For he (Pilate) knew that "for envy they had delivered him" (Jesus).

Verse 22
Pilate said unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?

"They (Jews) all say unto him, let him (Jesus) be crucified."

Verse 23
And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done?
But they (Jews) cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

Verse 24
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail nothing, but that rather a “tumult” was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: se ye to it.

Verse 25
Then answered all the people, and said,
“His blood be on us, and on our children.”

Verse 29
And when they (Roman soldiers) had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews.”
Do not conider it offensive please, but this exactly is the passage i strongly doubt.
It does imply that Pilate knew what kind of important Jesus would be in the future, stressing that he is innocent of Jesus death.
Verse 24
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail nothing, but that rather a “tumult” was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: se ye to it.

But he didnt, because for the Romans Jesus was just another dead public enemy threatening the public order.He was just a terrorist for him. They didnt even make a record about him. Nowhere in Roman literature you can find the name Jesus or something about his life. He was 1 out of thousands for them.
Whoever wrote this passage changed the original events as a kind of promotional lie, because all Evangelists (Luke, Matthew etc.) aimed at spreading Christian belief.

The # 1 Empire to spread it into was the Roman at that time and they knew that they would never get attention of the Romans if they would mark them as evil for killing Jesus.So they blamed the Jews. Thats my opinion.

I do not downtalk the achievements of Jesus, but i do doubt some of the writings the Evangelists made, because:
1. They were humans who deceive, lie and fail just like all humans do.
2. They did NOT witness Jesus and are therefore vulnerable for misconceiving stuff they were told. Remember they were imperfect human beings and this could happen to anybody.

And last but not least Pontius Pilatus is not the person he was portrayed in the Bible or in the Movie "Passion".
If you do crossreading on him in Roman literature, that he was a half criminal dubious person who gave a shit about one life or another. Even the Romans and all of his contemporary fellows considered him "weird" (And they were the weirdest culture ever). He would have been more like an ancient Bashar al-Assad (President of Syria) and was considered a criminal with no remorse, all about his personal wealth.


Peace

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Unread post by se11 » July 23rd, 2005, 4:29 pm

2. Why do Priests, Monks etc. have to live in Celibacy?
As far as i know, Jesus was a Jewish Priest in his earlier time. From the very start of existence it has been an obligation for Jewish Priests to have children BEFORE they can become a Rabbin.
This is because it is considered essential in the Jewish Religion to have children so that you have knowledge about life.
Celibacy is a man made lie that came out of the uptight minds of Christians in the Dark Ages.
they do not HAVE to. some choose to. many priests live in apartments, drive sports cars, watch sports, and live like normal people, except they say mass once a day or take confessions.

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Unread post by PlayaLarga » July 25th, 2005, 8:49 am

So what if the Jews Killed Jesus? HIs death and resurrection was a prophecy that needed to be fulfilled. We should not hate on the Jews because of this.

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Unread post by Sentenza » July 25th, 2005, 11:11 am

I agree, but you know all of the anti semitism in Christianity is based on that.
Even the Holocaust and anti jewish pogroms in the medieval.
Millions were killed because of this.

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Unread post by ratt » July 26th, 2005, 2:39 pm

false religion seducing the masses with false doctrines causing great harm to humanity. making honest hearted persons like you bitter against the god of the bible who wants you to know the truth.

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Unread post by Lonewolf » July 31st, 2005, 12:17 pm

Sentenza wrote:I agree, but you know all of the anti semitism in Christianity is based on that.
Even the Holocaust and anti jewish pogroms in the medieval.
Millions were killed because of this.
Many people are of the idea that the difference between Jews and Christians is that the Jews believe only in the Old Testament and the Christians believe in addition to it, in the New Testament as the complete word of God. And the facts that Jews did not accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and "conspired" for His execution. That being the so-called reasons why Jews were/are persecuted.

Even though there is much truth to the above said, there is also much more in addition to this.

Judaism can best be understood, not only as a religion but as a culture as well, with its own history, laws, and arts.

The Jews "real bible" is not the Old Testament as Christianity holds together in their Bible, but in fact, it is The Torah aka: Hebrew Bible (The Books of Moses – first five Books of the Old Testament), supplemented over the span of time with The Cabala, The Mishnah, and The Talmuds.

The Jewish book "The Mitzbeach" states that "there is nothing superior to the 'Holy Talmud'," and while the Jews do profess to be attached to the Old Testament, the real essence of the Jewish creed is not based solely in the Hebrew Bible (the books of Moses) as such, but in The Talmuds as a whole. The Talmuds are made up of two kinds of material: legal material, discussions, and decisions called Halachah (“the proper way”), and sections that deal with history, folklore, and sermons called Haggadah (“tale or narrative”). With the completion of The Talmuds, a portion of the life of Judaism came to an end, giving way to scholastic/academic studies and commentaries on Judaism, and subsequently The Talmuds became the most important non-biblical material in Judaism.

Today there exist several branches of Jewry such as the Orthodox, Reform, Liberal, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Falashas, Sephardim, Ashkanazim, Zionist, etc., but they all use The Talmud in their synagogues, just as all different branches of Christians use the same Bible. The Talmud is made up of 63 books in 524 chapters and is often printed in 18 large volumes. It was written by Rabbis between the years 200AD and 500AD in both Palestine and Babylon. It basically contains all the Jewish laws in their relationships between each other, and also in relationship of the Jews towards the Gentiles (non-Jews).

Eight Catholic popes condemned The Talmuds. Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Church, ordered it burned. Pope Clement VIII declared, "The impious Talmudic, The Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetually observed.

The Talmuds are said to hold that only Jews are true human beings and that the Gentiles (non-Jews) are "goyim" (meaning cattle or beast).

The Jews are said to be involved in what can be called the “Talmudic conspiracy” against all mankind, in which they take whatever steps deemed necessary for them to dominate the rest of the world. It is because of this so called conspiracy by Jews, that peoples and nations of the world through out the ages have at one time or another, taken part in the persecution of Jews. The belief that Jews indeed hold onto this world domination, religious and racial conspiracy, and their willingness to act upon them, is at the root cause of "anti-semitism," and formed part of the reasons why the Jews have been disliked and driven out of every nation in which they have inhabited at least once.

Below are some of the said to be exact quotes from the various books of the The Talmuds, which are said to shed light on the so-called world conspiracy of the Jews beliefs and teachings.

1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

4. Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

5. Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

10. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

11. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."

12. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."

13. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

14. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."

15. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

16. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

17. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

18. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

20. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

21. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy.
2.
22. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

23. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

24. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."

25. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."

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Unread post by TarHeelRED » July 31st, 2005, 7:24 pm

I didn't know the Judaism religion was so defiled.

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