North Korea

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Young Nile » January 26th, 2005, 12:00 pm

hitonme wrote:Lets see. Bush attacked Iraq because of saddam hussein and because Hussein pursued weapons of mass destruction. North Korea has nuclear weapons, over 1 MILLION soldiers on active duty, and dozens of warships. No wonder Bush doesn't want to attack North Korea. Instead of negotiating with the North Korean's unilaterally, the Americans want other countries to be involved with the talks. The same American government who attacked Iraq unilaterally but wont negotiate unilaterally. This tells a lot of the Bush administration. Bush is AFRAID to start a war with North Korea. With 1 million troops on the North Korean side, why would Bush announce a war with the North Koreans? Because he's scared. We have the best military technology in the whole world, the armed forces can take them out but Bush doesn't want it to happen. I say he is scared.
FALSE!!!
THE USA IS NOT SCARED TO GO TO WAR WITH A SINGLE NATION ON THIS PLANET...WITH THAT BEING SAID THE CONTRARY TO WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF BUSH AS BEING A WAR DRIVEN DICTATOR...WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND WOULD ATTACK THE 4TH STRONGEST MILITARY POWER WITH OUT HAVING THE FULL CAPABILITIES AND RESOURCES OF YOUR CURRENT MILITARY TO DO SO...ITS JUST NOT LOGICAL...
SCARRED???? NEVER SCARED........
JUST WOULD NOT BE CAPABLE OF ATTACKING A FORMIDABLE ADVERSARY WITH THE STATE OF THE MILITARY AT THIS TIME...IF WE HAD NOT ATTACKED IRAQ THEN MILITARY ACTION AGAINST NORTH KOREA WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE OF A OPTION.....

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by kodiak » January 26th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Lizard i would just like to make this fact clear. If america used their nuclear power offensively the out cry from americans would be tremendous. If someone launched on us then you cant blame us though. If we launched first though there would be hell to pay from the american public. I myself consider myself pretty aggresive when it comes to U.S. going to war ect , but even i would be raising hell in anyway i could. I know as well as many americans nuclear bombs and such are nothing to use carelessly. Even if its not exploding here that its still in our atmosphere and still effects us.

North korea is a very dangerous country in my opinion. If we mess with them we run a risk of China or other communist countries getting involved. China is a extremely powerfull country and we should be very happy we arent having conflicts with them at the moment. Yes Bush is scared of what would happen if we tangled with North Korea as well he should be. All it takes is one person pressing a button for the world to end as we know it.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Common Sense » January 26th, 2005, 2:19 pm

kodiak wrote:North korea is a very dangerous country in my opinion..
Very dangerous indeed. The North Koreans have a 50+ year history of trying to antagonize American forces. The US and N. Koreans have been doing tit for tat around the DMZ forever. It's always been a "mad doggin" game. During the late 60's U.S. Army boys went to cut down a tree on the border, so they could see better across the bridge that divided the two countries. In this section, it was supposed to be neutral ground. Well some N. korean soldiers showed up, leading their group was Lt. Bull Dog (what the Americans called him, b/c everytime he's around sh-t goes down), next thing you know everbody scrappin'. A U.S. Officer was killed in that scuffle. The N. Koreans ran back across the bridge. The N. K. government tried to deny it, but eventually apologized after the U.S. started flying B52 bombers and placing Army tanks near their borders. Stuff like this has been going on since the Korean War ended in 1954.

Always trying to call America's bluff. At the end of the day, all the N. Koreans want is money. America usually kick them down with some type of Aid package, then they shut up for a few years. They're pissed off dissatisfied union workers. That's what there doing now, with all this nuclear reactor talk. It's time for America to give the N. Koreans a raise.....LOL.
kodiak wrote:If we mess with them we run a risk of China or other communist countries getting involved..
We have already gone down this road before with China. China lost thousands of soldiers during the Korean War. They are not trying to hear that noise again. The Chinese wised up. They know now the North Koreans are professional sh-t talkers.

kodiak wrote:China is a extremely powerfull country and we should be very happy we arent having conflicts with them at the moment..
China doesn't want to go there. The Chinese are too preoccupied with recognition and tourism. They are elated over their favorite son on the Houston Rockets. Basketball is becoming the top sport in China. The whole country of China is Houston Rocket fans. Think of the online merchandise being sold. I believe the Chinese government might be even taxing their boy on the team.

In a nut shell....The Chinese want to be major players on the world market.

kodiak wrote:Yes Bush is scared of what would happen if we tangled with North Korea as well he should be. All it takes is one person pressing a button for the world to end as we know it.
North Korea will always test the waters. That's how the North Koreans do it, but they won't go to far over the line.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 26th, 2005, 2:45 pm

kodiak wrote:Lizard i would just like to make this fact clear. If america used their nuclear power offensively the out cry from americans would be tremendous. If someone launched on us then you cant blame us though. If we launched first though there would be hell to pay from the american public. I myself consider myself pretty aggresive when it comes to U.S. going to war ect , but even i would be raising hell in anyway i could. I know as well as many americans nuclear bombs and such are nothing to use carelessly. Even if its not exploding here that its still in our atmosphere and still effects us.
I believe you. I'm sure that every normal citizen around the world would want to see the world whitout nuclear bombs especially now when the bombs are hundred times stronger than the ones used in WWII. That's why it's pretty strange that there is still so many nuclear weapons in the world today. And thousands of them are ready to be launched in less than 30 minutes. I don't know about the stats in USA, but I remember seeing some polls from Great Britain where as much as 88% of the people wanted the government to get rid of the nuclear weapons. Nowadays for example in USA and in Russia the numbers of the nuclear weapons are at the level it was back in the early 60's. So the progress has been very slow.

"If someone launched on us then you cant blame us though."

Of course not. And I hope that I never have to see that. That would be the end of this civilization.

Did you know that Russia was damn near to launch a nuclear missile to USA back in the '95? It was all a big accident. Norway had send a weather "missile" to fly over Russia, but for some reason Russia never had that info. They just saw from their radar that something big that looked like missle was coming towards them. That was the first time that president Jeltsin gave an order to get ready to launch a nuclear missile to USA as he thought that USA had send that missile. But luckly just before (and I really mean _just before_) launching the nuclear missile, they was told that it was only a harmless weather missile.

Both of the countries, USA and Russia has this "launch-on-warning" system in use which means that if either one launches a missile towards another, that country will launch tens of nuclear missiles to the other country before that first missile hits it target. That's pretty scary. And that was very close to happen in '95.
North korea is a very dangerous country in my opinion. If we mess with them we run a risk of China or other communist countries getting involved. China is a extremely powerfull country and we should be very happy we arent having conflicts with them at the moment.
Yes. I think that China together whit Russia (and Japan, too) are the main reasons why Bush is after a peaceful solution in North Korea. It's in both of those countries interest that the peninsula of Korea stays peaceful. Plus USA don't want to have South Korea to be destroyed as it would be if USA would attack North Korea. The first missiles from North Korea's side would hit Soul and other big cities in South Korea.

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Unread post by Kemosave » January 26th, 2005, 3:15 pm

[quote="lizard"]Here you go, Kemosave. Here's in a "nutshell" what I've stated during this conversation:

1. I do not like the Juche ideology, I thinks it's too totalitarian. But I don't like the exploitation capitalism, either. In your books that's makes me a freedom/democracy hater. I disagree whit that. I do like freedom like every other person. Your country just isn't any kind of a "model student" in that case. Especially not after the WTC attacks. All that BS about Patriotic Act, etc. That big freedom thing you got there is every day more and more just an illusion. Go travel around and you'll see many countries whit more real freedom than you have.

---> You certainly are singing a new tune. There is no perfect system of government that perfectly deals with every potential problem and capitalism has made us a rich nation. It works. Your previous appeals to Jung's communism are a joke. No serious economist in this country is willing to trade away a system that made them well to do for one in which they can starve and be tortured/imprisoned while their kids are brainwashed. And you must not have been hearing me when I said I have been traveling around and this country is the best to live in out of all of them I have visited to date.

2. North Korea do have their problems, but keeping them under the embargo, considering the whole nation evil, making false contracts whit them, and threathning them whit military actions don't help that a bit. That just makes them to hate you. I also stated that people tend to exaggerate those problems, because North Korea is a closed country whit a communist system. Also I said that in countries which are relatively poor and very self-sufficiency, the annual harvests play a big role in the food matter. If the harvests are bad year after year, they run out of food. And that's what happened in North Korea in the 90's.

---> We don't care if Jung and his legion of brainwashers (brainwashing only his populace of course) hates us. We would like to do away with him and return North Korea to the Koreans. Judging by the increased number of defectors; Jung's claim of divinity along with his ability to deliver are starting to fall on deaf ears. All he needs to do is step down and give North Korea back to the Koreans. He is in the way of what is best for his people across the board and it is sad to see ignorant people outside of North Korea support him.

3. North Korea has never stated that they would have a nuclear weapon. I'm pretty sure that they keep that nuclear weapon option only to keep you out of their country. Oh, and by the way, Israel has a nuclear weapon, and they're in a war whit Palestinians, but you're not worried at all about their nukes. That's because in your books Israel is the good guys. They're killing masses of innocent Palestinians, destroying their homes, stealing their land, launching missiles to Libanon, but still - they are the good guys.

---> They have clearly stated they have nuclear weapons (and tried to make more). Israel is not selling nuclear weapons abroad and have excercised the proper discipline for decades regarding having them. Jung has been caught red handed with Iran diplomats and rogue groups already in North Korea discussing nuclear matters and how to push things forward. Also, your desire to let every country in the world be a nuclear power is kind of stupid and would end life on earth as we know it eventually. Your logic is circular here. Have you ever taken logic classes at a university? You aren't much into containment but mostly just obsessed with a little spot of land called Palestian in the middle east as if this is an end all that could somehow "change everything." I'm not calling Israel good nor am I calling the Paestinians bad. I'm not taking sides: you are. And it is coloring your ability to think clearly in the macro.

4. USA has something like 12 000 nuclear weapons. You should check the stats if you don't believe that. Both Russia and USA has lowered the amounts of their nukes, but very, very slowly. Every START contract that has been made has also been broken. Both countries still have more than 5000 nuclear weapons ready to be launch in less than 30 minutes. The reason why I spoke about these is that I think it's extremely hypocrite to tell other countries that they can't build up their nuclear weapons, while USA has over 10 000 nukes and has stated many times that they are ready to use them even in preventive strikes. Plus there has been numerous cases where the people who are responsible of your nuclear program has found out to be mentally ill, or alcoholist, or using different drugs. That you can read from the New England Medicine Journal (4/1998). And now you're even planning to build "mini-nukes". That's really not very smart. Here's the link to that: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 50,00.html

---> Then numbers are coming down and will end at a 1/3 of their current level on both sides. This is real progress. I disagree with you on the issue of containment. Your rabid defense of every countries right to become a nuclear power is not good for humanity or the earth in the END (read END). So let me get this straight, you say all countries of the world should become nuclear powers if they want to (except for the USA) and then you say there are problems with people in the nuclear programs. You see this is what I'm talking about. It's unreasonable and full of basic logic problems. That article only asserts discussions of the current administration have been held to discuss the issue. The Soviet Union has had suit case bombs and other mini-nukes for decades.

5. There might be a big scale torturing in North Korea. I say might, because I haven't seen any kinds of proves about that. If you can offer me some proves, then I believe you. Satellite pictures don't tell nothing. If I would own a satellite, I could take a picture from your house and say that you got a gun factory there whitout any proves at all. But after all, if that makes that whole country evil, then Israel is evil also. In Israel the government allows the torturing. Saudi Arabia shares the same problems (even much severe), but they are one of the biggest friends of your government despite of the fact that almost every one of them that attacked WTC where from Saudi Arabia. And notice that I never stated that USA is torturing their own people. Although I'm pretty sure that your police forces do batter up and ill-treat people in the streets and in the police stations. Same case whit your prisons. And that's what Amnesty International has stated also. If you would have read that link I've gave you, you would know that. They talked about a whole prisons where prison guards torture the prisoners either mentaly or physicaly. I have even seen few documentaries here in Finland about those prisons where they treated the prisoners like dogs. This all I said, because again I think it's kinda hypocrite to just sit quiet and allow your fellow countries (or should I say business partners) to torture people, but when it comes to the nations that don't do business whit you, you're quick to condemn them and want to bomb them dead as soon as possible. Here, read this: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20040314.htm

--->Well why come on here saying it isn't going on if you haven't even researched it properly. That's one of your problems I think. Go research the issue. In fact, go educate yourself properly. I already have. Your conclusions are drivel. I think you are more the hypocrite because you enjoy the benefits of a free world but don't know how to just say thank you. You sit there and just make these ridiculous statements as if you really know anything about them when you don't seem to have any idea what is going on. Get some formal training in information systems, government, economics, organization, communication, logic, etc.. and then try to convince people you know something. I can't see any qualifications to justify your "speaking" like an expert or something. Your positions are silly really in my opinion.

6. Then I stated that you do have some problems there that are mostly common only for the development countries. I never said that USA is in a same level that those countries are. I said that so you would understand that you really do have some severe problems in your own country as well, and you should put all your war money into those problems. Your government is bullshitting you and you don't even care. You're paying (taxes) your government to kill innocent people in many parts of the world, but don't wanna help your own people. Remember, 1 billion dollars is spend in Iraq per day. That's 1 billion dollars away from your own people. Each and every day. Check this: http://costofwar.com/

---> blah blah blah.. grow up. I have lived here and traveled the nation for over forty years. I know my own backyard and my government. Why do I need a foreigner who listens to foreign disinformation to tell me what I see and know is true, isn't really true. Where are you from again?

7. I said that as people in the North Korea are bowing down to their leader, you're bowing down to your flag. You can't go nowhere in your country whitout seeing USA flag hanging in almost every corner and shop. That I've seen from numerous documentaries, plus everyone I know that has been in your country have told me that. I don't think there's a much of a difference if your bowing down to a flag or a face. That's equally stupid. I'm sure you'll see the big different in that, but that's only because you're american and have grown into that.

---> They better bow down or they might lose their life. And you can choose or not choose here. That's one of the nice things about a Democracy. Lol.. you are showing your ignorance here now those flags in the shops are put up by people who like them not because they have to. Big difference fool. And the majority rules here. If the majority decided tomorrow not to have a flag then it would eventually occur. You are too ignorant to see the difference between a communist system of government and a democratic one apparently. What an idiotic thing to say.

8. I've used Finland as an example many times, because I thought that that would make you feel that I'm not blaming USA about everything. Plus because I'm Finnish (and very critical Finnish, I might add), I know how the things go here and what people thinks here.

---> I don't give a rip about Finland. What do they have to do with us other than we would come to their aid if they needed us and we have a number of intellectual and business relationships with them. Aww you are Finnish. Something fishy about that.. haha.. just a joke. Sure then you know what people think there. But you are playing Mr. Expert about what is going on here and talking to educated competent people telling them a bunch of BS.

9. I talked about the cultural differences, because culture is usually the backbone of the nation. If you don't understand the culture, it's very difficult to understand the people in it. And the culture in North Korea is very different than in USA. They're not spending their days running after the money or a fame. Their basic values are completely different than yours. Same thing in Afganistan. You're army tried to buy the tribes there to work whit them, but they just toke the money, but didn't do nothing for you. Many representatives of your army has said that you didn't quite understand how different their values were compared to yours. For them money isn't worth of a much. The respect and old traditions are everything.

--->We have a whole bunch of cultures here. Going to have to say you are wrong because there is no "culture" here that forms the backbone of our country. There is a political system, however, that does. See what I mean, you just aren't correct. You are merely talking about your objections to the way we handle foreign policy but aren't smart enough to know the difference between the two.

10. Then the bankrupcty. USA's state-depth is HUGE! Many ecomomist (even americans) have stated that 10-15 years more whit your ecomic programs, and you're in a bankrupcty. That's no secret. Go check the stats if you don't believe it. Your depth is growing day after day. You were slowly going into a better direction during the Clinton's era (no matter what Bush's own economist say), but now Bush is #%@&#%@ up your country's economy. He's putting huge amounts of money to robbing other countries like he's doing in Iraq. That's his strategy.

--> This is one of the few areas you have spoken on in past and your current posts where your logic and the reality have some things in common. We have a problem. But it needs to be and will eventually be worked out. One way or the other. The doom you are inferring isn't going to happen. We go through times of prosperity and recession as a nation and always recover from the latter. It is a weakness I think in our form of government to overspend. I supported a balanced budget amendment personally and if it had passed we would not have the debt. But then many foreign countries (including Finland I bet) have profited mightly from underwriting it. Anyways, here is an interesting report from some "grassroots" all American financial guys in the US that have respect that support your assertion http://www.fool.com/community/pod/2005/ ... =foolwatch

11. I am not hating you or your country, but I'm hating Bush and all his partners whit good reasons. You got your own way of living there, and that's fine. Just don't think that the rest of the world would like to live like you. You know that you would be angry and ready to fight if some nation would march into your country and tell you how to live your life. It's the same thing whit the countries you have marched in. Oh yeah, and actually if every nation in the world would be living like you, that would deplete all the natural sources of Earth pretty damn fast. Earth can't handle that much of consuming. Even today you're using almost twice as much oil per capita than any other nation. Same thing whit the electricity. Plus you're polluting the Earth over twice as much per capita than any other nation. World cannot afford every people to live like you.

---> Well you sounded initially like we needed to immediately go to Jung Communism there.. Whoa! Not going to happen. Damn straight we have our freedom loving nation here and it has made many here very wealthy with a historical trend of people moving up through classes (Note the poor have always been with us and they always will). There is much opportunity here you can't even believe it. Maybe that is why you choose not to. Actually China and other countries are picking up their consumation of natural resources quickly and steadily from the stats I've seen. It's driving up the price of oil too. But what you're not understanding is that (yes it's coming along WAY too slow) but we are slowly picking up steam and moving toward a clean environment direction :).

Now when all this is said, everything else you have said that I've said is in your own mind. You should check your head before putting words into my mouth.

---> And you should have made more sense in your earlier posts and should make more sense in parts of this one too.

And last, I'd like to know if you're really a supporter of Bush policy? Because if you really do believe all of his lies, then I'm really wasting my time here, because you're living in some la-la land, my friend. And remember that most of the people outside of your country are thinking exactly like me. Very few people do like Bush and his policy. Don't believe it? Well, just check the links and stats that I've gave you earlier. You're really not that intellectual that you like to think you are. You're making a lot of noise about your travelling and about your intellectual friends, but if you really would be that intelligent you wouldn't have to make such a noise about it. For me you're just some kid who likes to talk, but not think.

---> Stop talking like a kid. It's not that cut and dry. And I don't make decisions based on popularity contests but rather the facts. I am sure a far sight more of an intellectual than you are. But if compared to how you think you are then even Einstein have to bow down to your brillant logical intellectualism now wouldn't he.. lolol. I'm an educated man not a kid but you sure talk a kid.

And as for continueing this conversation: I don't see any reasons for that.

---> Why because your false conclusions are not getting rubber stamped here as they do in your hate american forums. lolol.

And why you want me to read the Declaration of Independence? What I should learn from that?

--> Go read it and think about it. The answer should come to you eventually.

...pretty much sums you up. You're just a one misguided sheep.

---> And you are acting like a child not to read such an important document and learn from it.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by kodiak » January 26th, 2005, 7:48 pm

Woah discussion is cool but outright insults arent. Why throw around insults when people are just voicing their view?

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Unread post by punamusta » January 27th, 2005, 9:56 am

I appreciate your answer, Kemosave, but I think that there's no point to continue this debate. I was hoping that I would have get some real opinions from you, and not only that same mantra of yours "go educate yourself", "you just don't get it", "I don't give a f**k", "you're just stupid", etc. From my opinion I could say that same thing to you, but it wouldn't make a good conversation. I didn't count that how many times I said that I'm not behind Juche ideology, but even in this last post from you, you thought I was. So for the last time: I'm not.

But now, lets leave this here.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Mraka » January 27th, 2005, 12:23 pm

Usa had concentration camps for Japaneese living in US during WW2
-"- had apharteid till the 60'
-"-was build up with slavery
Kemosave doesn`t know that what Usa done good ,there was an opposition who enforced those.
-Or he thinks that allgood came from'em.
-Usa used Nazis after work for science or intelligence.
-There was McCarthy-Aera
There are Cochroaches in the Pentagon-kitchen.+
If somebody in world mentions two party democracy,they mean Us.
Lizard is right,there are much more poeple highly competent at knowing North-Korea and ongoing diplomartics,but if there is a situation when you are into Juche and opponent calls it
treachary ,you can`t act smart,cause it becomes idealistic.
Rather call captain america! Lizard you know too much:))).But now its about knowing this situation.
Whole conversation turns to be a statistic issue.

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Unread post by Kemosave » January 27th, 2005, 1:08 pm

lizard wrote:I appreciate your answer, Kemosave, but I think that there's no point to continue this debate. I was hoping that I would have get some real opinions from you, and not only that same mantra of yours "go educate yourself", "you just don't get it", "I don't give a f**k", "you're just stupid", etc. From my opinion I could say that same thing to you, but it wouldn't make a good conversation. I didn't count that how many times I said that I'm not behind Juche ideology, but even in this last post from you, you thought I was. So for the last time: I'm not.

But now, lets leave this here.
And you did get some real info along with some real encouragement to properly educate yourself before running around telling everyone how to run their countries when you know little about them or what's going on. You pushed that Juche ideology hard initially strongly defending it and making false assertions but with a little tiny caveat at the end. You've backed off that position. Good. And as for these hypocritical arguments about how some people in Democratic governments hold religious views my goodness.. let's talk about Muslim theocracy's or divine dictator worship oriented ideologies.. lol. Again, it doesn't wash. Now go do something good. We all have to live here on this planet you know.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Kemosave » January 27th, 2005, 1:13 pm

Mraka wrote:Usa had concentration camps for Japaneese living in US during WW2
-"- had apharteid till the 60'
-"-was build up with slavery
Kemosave doesn`t know that what Usa done good ,there was an opposition who enforced those.
-Or he thinks that allgood came from'em.
-Usa used Nazis after work for science or intelligence.
-There was McCarthy-Aera
There are Cochroaches in the Pentagon-kitchen.+
If somebody in world mentions two party democracy,they mean Us.
Lizard is right,there are much more poeple highly competent at knowing North-Korea and ongoing diplomartics,but if there is a situation when you are into Juche and opponent calls it
treachary ,you can`t act smart,cause it becomes idealistic.
Rather call captain america! Lizard you know too much:))).But now its about knowing this situation.
Whole conversation turns to be a statistic issue.
No offense there fella but it's a much better and free world as a result of the free world coming out on top in the last all out world war. Now if your country (that would be Germany no?) had won: the world would have been purged (read kill off everyone) of so called "undesirables" and the survivors be forced to goose step through town singing the praises of Nazism lest they be killed off too. And you would have grown up so brainwashed you wouldn't even known what you know today. We stopped that all from happening. So I don't quite get your moral position here of authority. Perhaps you could explain it?

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Unread post by punamusta » January 27th, 2005, 1:40 pm

Kemosave wrote:You pushed that Juche ideology hard initially strongly defending it and making false assertions but with a little tiny caveat at the end. You've backed off that position.
You're just unbelievable, Kemosave. I spend a lot of my time to write you, and you don't even read what I've wrote you. For the very last time: I'm not supporting (and wasn't supporting) the Juche ideology. I was defending the people in North Korea, not their political system. There's a big difference in that. You just can't claim that whole nation to be evil, because of their political system or their leader. Or if you can, then I can call USA evil, because of your president.

By the way, it's a funny thing that before (and even during) the WWII, Nazis had a bigger support in the USA than in Germany.

"We stopped that all from happening."

If you're referring to the end of the Hitler's era, then actually it was the Soviet Union that stopped that.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by kodiak » January 27th, 2005, 3:28 pm

US plained a crucial role in WW2 hands down. We prevented Germany on the western part of Europe like Britian for example. Hilter did do a big no no by messing with Russia hehe..

PS. is anyone elses screen showing this website in very wierd text and green?

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Unread post by punamusta » January 27th, 2005, 4:07 pm

kodiak wrote:US plained a crucial role in WW2 hands down. We prevented Germany on the western part of Europe like Britian for example. Hilter did do a big no no by messing with Russia hehe..
Yes USA did, that I don't deny. Landing of Normandia played a crucial role in the Western part of the Europe. But still I think that the fight over Stalingrad was the key battle. That's where Soviet Union after a long fights won Germany and made them retreat and caused them a severe losses that eventually changed the whole course of the WWII.

History is always political, so it's pretty much up to what history book you're reading. Some books gives the credit to USA, some to Soviet Union. After all Finland was in the war whit Soviet Union, I still think that the Soviets fight in Stalingrad was the key fight. That's my opinion, but I know that there's different opinions about that.
PS. is anyone elses screen showing this website in very wierd text and green?
Yes, my screen is green also. Very annoying.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 27th, 2005, 7:24 pm

Just couldn't let this converstation go by :) So here it goes again:
Kemosave wrote:And as for these hypocritical arguments about how some people in Democratic governments hold religious views my goodness..


What are you talking about? Something about Bush? Well, he sure does hold some religious views. He has even told to the media how he talked to the God about the war in Iraq, and that God told gave a permission to a war. Plus he says he's praying every day. And what about those "God bless" after every speech of him? Not religious?
You certainly are singing a new tune. There is no perfect system of government that perfectly deals with every potential problem and capitalism has made us a rich nation. It works. Your previous appeals to Jung's communism are a joke. No serious economist in this country is willing to trade away a system that made them well to do for one in which they can starve and be tortured/imprisoned while their kids are brainwashed. And you must not have been hearing me when I said I have been traveling around and this country is the best to live in out of all of them I have visited to date.
I didn't mean that you should turn into a communism. But that's a fact that there's many other countries (in Europe) that has more freedom than you do. That don't mean that you would like those countries more than your homeland. Of course not. Usually people like their home countries the most.

Yes, capitalism has made you rich, but many other countries poor. That's the result of an exploitation capitalism. Western countries uses the development countries as a producers of the raw materials. Development countries do not have their own factories, own possibilities, to benefit of their rich natural sources. If you look at the countries that has most of the oil, most of the diamonds, most of the gold, you'll see that pretty much all those countries are relatively poor. And it's particularly wrong, because huge majority of the people of the world are living in development countries, which are being exploited due to benefits of the rich, western countries. And like it or not, USA is the biggest exploiter of them all, but that don't mean that USA is the only country who would have to re-think their ways.
We don't care if Jung and his legion of brainwashers (brainwashing only his populace of course) hates us. We would like to do away with him and return North Korea to the Koreans. Judging by the increased number of defectors; Jung's claim of divinity along with his ability to deliver are starting to fall on deaf ears. All he needs to do is step down and give North Korea back to the Koreans. He is in the way of what is best for his people across the board and it is sad to see ignorant people outside of North Korea support him.
Re-uniting the Koreas isn't that easy as you think it is. That don't happen by just changing the president of the North Korea. But why wouldn't you care if people are hating you? It's never good to have too many enemies. And you know, there must be something wrong in your policy if every second nation in the world hates you. If your meanings are as thoroughly good as you say, then why people don't get it? Is the problem in you, or in the others? And why?
They have clearly stated they have nuclear weapons (and tried to make more). Israel is not selling nuclear weapons abroad and have excercised the proper discipline for decades regarding having them. Jung has been caught red handed with Iran diplomats and rogue groups already in North Korea discussing nuclear matters and how to push things forward. Also, your desire to let every country in the world be a nuclear power is kind of stupid and would end life on earth as we know it eventually. Your logic is circular here. Have you ever taken logic classes at a university? You aren't much into containment but mostly just obsessed with a little spot of land called Palestian in the middle east as if this is an end all that could somehow "change everything." I'm not calling Israel good nor am I calling the Paestinians bad. I'm not taking sides: you are. And it is coloring your ability to think clearly in the macro.
That nuclear weapon statement you'll have to prove me before I believe it. There has been cases when the western media has made news about that, but afterwards they have drawn off those news in a big silence. North Korea has never officially announced that they have a nuclear weapon. North Korea has sold some ordinary missiles to some countries just like USA and many other countries has done. And again, if you want me to believe what you're saying about those nuclear weapon discussion between Iranies and some "rogue groups" in North Korea, you'll have to give me some proofs. Why would Iranies go to the North Korea to buy a nuclear weapon that North Korea apparently even doesn't have?

And I definetly don't want to every country to have a nuclear weapon. I just said that it's kinda hypocrite to own over 12 000 nukes, and allow your business partner (Israel) to have a nuclear weapon, and just think that it's a whole different matter than some "evil" country to have one. Why only some countries have a right to own nuclear weapons, while some others don't? Who have made those rules? Who defines who can't have the weapons?

Yes, I'm taking side in that Israel vs. Palestinian situation. Why wouldn't I? Don't you ever get up and say that something somebody (or in this case 'some country') is doing isn't right? I think you do. You already have during this conversation.

Israel's army is killing masses of innocent civilians there, and I shouldn't say that that's wrong? I think that Palestinians have their right for their own country, and Israel has no right for stealing it. UN has tried to make many resolutions about that matter, but USA together whit Israel has always stopped that (including resolutions about Israel's army shooting missiles to refugee camps). All the other countries see that situation like I do. Doesn't that tell you something? And furthermore, that Israel vs. Palestinian situation is a very important matter in the whole Middle East peace progress. You can't speak about that region peace unless solving that question first. And you can't understand those so called terrorists whitout understanding the situation in Middle East. And keep in mind just how much you're supporting the Israel's actions. Here,
take a look of every UN resolutions regarding to Israel's actions which USA (and in few cases some other countries whit USA) has overturned: http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index ... 448329.htm And don't just quickly check it thru - read it.
Then numbers are coming down and will end at a 1/3 of their current level on both sides. This is real progress. I disagree with you on the issue of containment. Your rabid defense of every countries right to become a nuclear power is not good for humanity or the earth in the END (read END). So let me get this straight, you say all countries of the world should become nuclear powers if they want to (except for the USA) and then you say there are problems with people in the nuclear programs. You see this is what I'm talking about. It's unreasonable and full of basic logic problems. That article only asserts discussions of the current administration have been held to discuss the issue. The Soviet Union has had suit case bombs and other mini-nukes for decades.
Yes, the number of the nuclear weapons are coming down. But too slowly. Not USA or Russia has the real will to get rid of their weapons. They should show an example to all of the countries and get rid of the weapons as soon as possible. That would give a great example to every nation. Now your army is still building nuclear weapons. Only smaller than the ones before. Plus USA has added to their military strategy a possibility to commit a preventive strike. Now how's that for an example? And lets keep in mind that those START contracts don't even cover the tactic nuclear weapons, only strategic.
Well why come on here saying it isn't going on if you haven't even researched it properly. That's one of your problems I think. Go research the issue. In fact, go educate yourself properly. I already have. Your conclusions are drivel. I think you are more the hypocrite because you enjoy the benefits of a free world but don't know how to just say thank you. You sit there and just make these ridiculous statements as if you really know anything about them when you don't seem to have any idea what is going on. Get some formal training in information systems, government, economics, organization, communication, logic, etc.. and then try to convince people you know something. I can't see any qualifications to justify your "speaking" like an expert or something. Your positions are silly really in my opinion.
What isn't going on? The big scale torturing in North Korea? I have tried to look some proofs about that, but couldn't find any. Even Amnesty couldn't certify that, and they should know. But if you got some proofs about that, I'm happy to see those. There's a lot of propaganda going on in this North Korea matter as I already have stated. You just cannot believe every single news article.

And I'm not an expert in these matters, but I do follow this North Korea situation whit great interest. I've read many books about it, and I've went thru a lot of different kinds of web pages about this matter. All I'm saying is that you can't believe everything that the mainstream media is telling you. Many people got "good" reasons to lie about North Korea. Especially nowadays.
blah blah blah.. grow up. I have lived here and traveled the nation for over forty years. I know my own backyard and my government. Why do I need a foreigner who listens to foreign disinformation to tell me what I see and know is true, isn't really true. Where are you from again?
I'm from Finland. That also I have made clear for many times. That even reads under my name here. So are you saying that you do not have those problems I said? You don't have large (and numerous) ghettos there? You don't have millions of homeless people there? You don't have a huge depth? Do I need to go on..? After all these problems you're still using a huge amount of money to wars. I'm watching the news, and I see many americans saying that that's not right. But apparently you can see the great wisdom behind that.
I don't give a rip about Finland. What do they have to do with us other than we would come to their aid if they needed us and we have a number of intellectual and business relationships with them. Aww you are Finnish. Something fishy about that.. haha.. just a joke. Sure then you know what people think there. But you are playing Mr. Expert about what is going on here and talking to educated competent people telling them a bunch of BS.
Now why would we need your aid? We don't even got no oil in here, didn't you know that? ;)
We have a whole bunch of cultures here. Going to have to say you are wrong because there is no "culture" here that forms the backbone of our country. There is a political system, however, that does. See what I mean, you just aren't correct. You are merely talking about your objections to the way we handle foreign policy but aren't smart enough to know the difference between the two.
Yes, I know that you don't have your own, one culture. But I was speaking about North Korea's culture. Or every other nations culture. Saying that if you don't understand the culture, it's very difficult to understand the people in it. That's a simple fact. And that's why people can't condemn the other nations if they first haven't study the culture of them.
Well you sounded initially like we needed to immediately go to Jung Communism there.. Whoa! Not going to happen. Damn straight we have our freedom loving nation here and it has made many here very wealthy with a historical trend of people moving up through classes (Note the poor have always been with us and they always will). There is much opportunity here you can't even believe it. Maybe that is why you choose not to.
You know, you really don't have to tell me again and again how much you're loving freedom. Every single person in this world is loving freedom. You're no different in that matter. The more and more you're repeating it, the more and more it just sounds an empty slogan that's set to keep your mind right. I don't mean that as an insult, but that's just how it sounds.

"But what you're not understanding is that (yes it's coming along WAY too slow) but we are slowly picking up steam and moving toward a clean environment direction ."

I do understand that. But a little bit differently than you. It's not a long time ago when you're government stated again that you're not going to sign the Kioto contract. And that's not the right direction. Not particularly because that contract is already way too old. If all the nations in the world would follow that contract starting from tomorrow, that wouldn't be enough at all. We need far more strict environment contracts. The temperature is rising pretty rapidly. That's one of the main reason why Florida was hit whit that many hurricanes last year. And that's why there's been such a many severe floods all over the world. In my opinion the only solution to stop that is to every nation in the world to cut down their consuming. I've done that in my part and I hope that every single person (especially in the western countries) would do the same. People are constantly bying stuff they don't really need. But then again, that I think is the main problem whit capitalism. Every company is trying to make more and more profit. That means that they're making more and more (consuming) products. And that means more and more pollution. And that means that the temperature just keeps rising.
We all have to live here on this planet you know.
Exactly. So carry your responsibility as a individual, and then as a nation.

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Unread post by Kemosave » January 27th, 2005, 8:37 pm

lizard wrote:
Kemosave wrote:You pushed that Juche ideology hard initially strongly defending it and making false assertions but with a little tiny caveat at the end. You've backed off that position.
You're just unbelievable, Kemosave. I spend a lot of my time to write you, and you don't even read what I've wrote you. For the very last time: I'm not supporting (and wasn't supporting) the Juche ideology. I was defending the people in North Korea, not their political system. There's a big difference in that. You just can't claim that whole nation to be evil, because of their political system or their leader. Or if you can, then I can call USA evil, because of your president.

By the way, it's a funny thing that before (and even during) the WWII, Nazis had a bigger support in the USA than in Germany.

"We stopped that all from happening."

If you're referring to the end of the Hitler's era, then actually it was the Soviet Union that stopped that.
You know what you did. You were defending the system that oppresses them. Now you are pretending like you didn't. And here you go again.. saying one thing and then another. You just can't admit it when you are wrong I guess.

Now as usual, you are back to your old tricks of not getting it right. For example, the German election stats show on March 5, 1933 that 17.28 million Germans voted for the Nazi party representing 43.9% of the total population. Prove that in 1933 the USA had more than 17.28 million Nazi's. You can't because we didn't. Now after they revealed their colors, (and by the way the authentic assemblies of Christians had been warning all along based on the crazy beliefs the Nazi's were expousing that they were in fact very dangerous), the tide of popular opinion turned firmly against them (except for some kooks which you have in any case everywhere including Finland who was actually a Nazi ally during WWII!).

And Germany's decision to invade the USSR was a stupid one of course, however, the free world would have fought them in all out war to defeat them in any case and we were the right hand of that effort. But you just go blah blah blah talking nonsense. Your facts aren't straight and your conclusions are wrong.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Kemosave » January 27th, 2005, 10:04 pm

Kemosave wrote:And as for these hypocritical arguments about how some people in Democratic governments hold religious views my goodness..


What are you talking about? Something about Bush? Well, he sure does hold some religious views. He has even told to the media how he talked to the God about the war in Iraq, and that God told gave a permission to a war. Plus he says he's praying every day. And what about those "God bless" after every speech of him? Not religious?

---> I see you took it all out of context. I was simply explaining that when someone aligns themselves with a Theocracy (as in a Muslim Theocracy for example) or with a totalitarian government that allows only one form of worship usually centered around the leader (such as in North Korea) or a philosophy that doesn't work in reality (such as Communism) and they come on here talking down Democracy (especially if they live in one and enjoy the benefits of it) they are being hypocritcal. Now, as I explained already Bush is a temporary figure that cannot be relected for three consecutive terms. And whether or not you agree that he should be allowed to pray, many people in this country pray and are not persecuted it as in many other parts of the world, and they have a God given (you know Creator God) right to do so. As for the historical traditions that we have here recognizing the Creator God in this country, they are diminishing incrementally (so you can take some joy in that). But until the majority of people here (remember it is a Democracy) desire to have no form of any kind of honoring Creator God in any way, this will continue and it is the will of the people. I hope that day never comes. Part of our strength and freedoms historically derive from belief in Creator God and belief that he is personally involved with our lives and gives us principles with which to live. By the way, you seem to feel strongly that some things are right and some things are wrong. What is your moral basis for that? I want to know. Why are you in a position to judge Creator God and if you don't believe in him then why should we care about what you think is right and wrong anyway as ultimately there is no meaning? What is YOUR moral authority by which you make your claims. I wish to examine it.
You certainly are singing a new tune. There is no perfect system of government that perfectly deals with every potential problem and capitalism has made us a rich nation. It works. Your previous appeals to Jung's communism are a joke. No serious economist in this country is willing to trade away a system that made them well to do for one in which they can starve and be tortured/imprisoned while their kids are brainwashed. And you must not have been hearing me when I said I have been traveling around and this country is the best to live in out of all of them I have visited to date.
I didn't mean that you should turn into a communism. But that's a fact that there's many other countries (in Europe) that has more freedom than you do. That don't mean that you would like those countries more than your homeland. Of course not. Usually people like their home countries the most.

---> Not for much longer. I see the trend is for more restrictions and less freedom in the EU. Eventually you will be firmly under central EU control and you will abide by their laws or pay the price. The honeymoon will end.

Yes, capitalism has made you rich, but many other countries poor. That's the result of an exploitation capitalism. Western countries uses the development countries as a producers of the raw materials. Development countries do not have their own factories, own possibilities, to benefit of their rich natural sources. If you look at the countries that has most of the oil, most of the diamonds, most of the gold, you'll see that pretty much all those countries are relatively poor. And it's particularly wrong, because huge majority of the people of the world are living in development countries, which are being exploited due to benefits of the rich, western countries. And like it or not, USA is the biggest exploiter of them all, but that don't mean that USA is the only country who would have to re-think their ways.

--->Prove it and be specific. I want to see your sources for this. Note that third world countries were poor to begin with and their development has raised their standard of living in our hemisphere anyways in most cases where true development has taken place. People like medicine, technology, and education. We have given more money than you can possibly imagine over the past 100 years to them and for their development. The current trend (you have heard of NAFTA and other free trade agreements right?) is allowing countries all over the world to participate like never before in the world economy. If you don't like natural resources then stop using them. Give up every natural resource tomorrow. I challenge you. The world's demand for natural resources is growing even as the USA's is expected to diminish eventually. I would argue that natural resources were part of the careful plan of Creator God and can, of course, argue that. You don't know much about science though so it would be difficult for you. Now the money we have paid out in for oil alone is astronomical. If we stopped buying oil tomorrow there would be a major world wide depression in the Middle East. See we give them lots of money for their oil and they don't have much else for resources except oil and of course sand. Simple really. You are talking nonsense.
We don't care if Jung and his legion of brainwashers (brainwashing only his populace of course) hates us. We would like to do away with him and return North Korea to the Koreans. Judging by the increased number of defectors; Jung's claim of divinity along with his ability to deliver are starting to fall on deaf ears. All he needs to do is step down and give North Korea back to the Koreans. He is in the way of what is best for his people across the board and it is sad to see ignorant people outside of North Korea support him.
Re-uniting the Koreas isn't that easy as you think it is. That don't happen by just changing the president of the North Korea. But why wouldn't you care if people are hating you? It's never good to have too many enemies. And you know, there must be something wrong in your policy if every second nation in the world hates you. If your meanings are as thoroughly good as you say, then why people don't get it? Is the problem in you, or in the others? And why?

---> We'd be happy just to have a President in North Korea who was democratically elected by the people for the people (I'm not talking about mark the one box or you get a bullet your head type voting Jung currently engages in either). The reason why I don't care if you hate me is because to me you are big hypocryte. You enjoy the wonders of high tech in the wealthy civilized world of Finland and then come on here crying when other's do the same. You whine there were Nazi's in other countries before the evil was unmasked yet your country (that would mean your grandparents right?) were allys of Hitler. And don't lecture us on political science. We know very well the importance of global thinking and alliances in this country. We have some very astute intellectuals here. But we don't let you run our country into the ground with your ridiculous assertions of material disarming for example. And no, every country doesn't hate us, it's just in "vogue" currently, and yes sometimes doing the right thing makes you unpopular. And yes sometimes you get a President that doesn't make good decisions. But he doesn't last a lifetime just 8 years at the most.
They have clearly stated they have nuclear weapons (and tried to make more). Israel is not selling nuclear weapons abroad and have excercised the proper discipline for decades regarding having them. Jung has been caught red handed with Iran diplomats and rogue groups already in North Korea discussing nuclear matters and how to push things forward. Also, your desire to let every country in the world be a nuclear power is kind of stupid and would end life on earth as we know it eventually. Your logic is circular here. Have you ever taken logic classes at a university? You aren't much into containment but mostly just obsessed with a little spot of land called Palestian in the middle east as if this is an end all that could somehow "change everything." I'm not calling Israel good nor am I calling the Paestinians bad. I'm not taking sides: you are. And it is coloring your ability to think clearly in the macro.
That nuclear weapon statement you'll have to prove me before I believe it. There has been cases when the western media has made news about that, but afterwards they have drawn off those news in a big silence. North Korea has never officially announced that they have a nuclear weapon. North Korea has sold some ordinary missiles to some countries just like USA and many other countries has done. And again, if you want me to believe what you're saying about those nuclear weapon discussion between Iranies and some "rogue groups" in North Korea, you'll have to give me some proofs. Why would Iranies go to the North Korea to buy a nuclear weapon that North Korea apparently even doesn't have?

--->Lol.. just check the treaty's that were signed a few years ago and see how they are on track regarding them. Simple. Haha.. North Korea has never officially announced they have a nuclear program.. funny. Hitler never offically announced he had death camps either. But he did. You have a disconnect of reality when it comes to this issue. They tried to make nuclear weapons, succeeded, and are still trying. Yes Iranian officials and other political groups were observed in North Korea. But you got the whys wrong. There is a connection there and you find stories about it all over the net. Here's one off a quick search: http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=221

And I definetly don't want to every country to have a nuclear weapon. I just said that it's kinda hypocrite to own over 12 000 nukes, and allow your business partner (Israel) to have a nuclear weapon, and just think that it's a whole different matter than some "evil" country to have one. Why only some countries have a right to own nuclear weapons, while some others don't? Who have made those rules? Who defines who can't have the weapons?

---> That's good to hear. But it's not a contradiction for us when you look historically at the system of principles and beliefs and how they have worked in reality. Just wait until most of the Muslim world has nukes. They will use them too. I've heard Islamic fighters on television specials saying Mohammad predicted nuclear war would come and it is their mission to push that forward. You should be very careful about not joining a containment effort to prevent that.

Yes, I'm taking side in that Israel vs. Palestinian situation. Why wouldn't I? Don't you ever get up and say that something somebody (or in this case 'some country') is doing isn't right? I think you do. You already have during this conversation.

---> Most of us over here would simply like to see both sides stop killing each other and hate baiting each other. We keep trying to broker a peace. You have taken a side and as a result it seems you may not be interested in brokering a peace.

Israel's army is killing masses of innocent civilians there, and I shouldn't say that that's wrong?

---> They kill each other. One side is no better than the next.

I think that Palestinians have their right for their own country, and Israel has no right for stealing it.

---> I think preventing a nuclear holocaust should take precedence over your obsessed focus on what is comparatively a very small issue. However, fine give them their homeland. We are for it here for the most part. I understand they did give it back, but then the Palestinian's began using that as a place to launch attacks seeking more always more with even the Palestian authorities joining in. They will never stop trying to kill off Jews it seems and visa versa.

UN has tried to make many resolutions about that matter, but USA together whit Israel has always stopped that (including resolutions about Israel's army shooting missiles to refugee camps). All the other countries see that situation like I do.

---> Well I see it like this. The two sides are at war and if one side stops the other just goes harder until they finally hit back. Now with that said, I understand some of the problems there. And I am not out to give you a hard time on this issue really if you simply acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Note that the Israelis' distrust is well-founded, considering that the Palestinians and the neighboring Arab states were the ones to reject the United Nations' original partition plan which Israel was willing to accept in 1948. The Palestinian reversal of that position is only recent. The Israelis rightly believe that the Palestinians always claimed the entire land, and that they see all Jewish settlement as colonization. The Palestinians' distrust is also well-founded, in that since the 19th century Jewish settlement in Palestine was in fact driven by the desire to "redeem" lands from Arab ownership, be it by purchase (often from absentee landowners) or acts of war (from 1948 onwards). Most recently, Israel's dogged expansion in the occupied territories has been its most clear demonstration of such ambitions. But even without this proof, Israel's second class treatment of its own "Arabs" (Palestinians who did not leave their homes and are Israeli citizens) supports the claim that the Zionist project as carried out to date is not interested in co-existence. Still they are both at each others throats no matter what it seems.

Doesn't that tell you something? And furthermore, that Israel vs. Palestinian situation is a very important matter in the whole Middle East peace progress.

---> True, however, it pales in importance compared to preventing nuclear holocaust and the results your decisions in getting the USA to materially disarm would have on the free world.

You can't speak about that region peace unless solving that question first.

---> True but only because the Muslim leaders in the region have decided this must be so. It is their "red Herring" method of diverting attention away from their own differences. If a Palestine state came into being tommorrow and Israel and Palestine lived in peace then all those differences would come to the surface. This issue helps keep the peace.

And you can't understand those so called terrorists whitout understanding the situation in Middle East. And keep in mind just how much you're supporting the Israel's actions. Here, take a look of every UN resolutions regarding to Israel's actions which USA (and in few cases some other countries whit USA) has overturned: http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index ... 448329.htm And don't just quickly check it thru - read it.

---> I did. Have you read the Declaration of Independence yet? By the way both nations have a right to exist by the document.
Then numbers are coming down and will end at a 1/3 of their current level on both sides. This is real progress. I disagree with you on the issue of containment. Your rabid defense of every countries right to become a nuclear power is not good for humanity or the earth in the END (read END). So let me get this straight, you say all countries of the world should become nuclear powers if they want to (except for the USA) and then you say there are problems with people in the nuclear programs. You see this is what I'm talking about. It's unreasonable and full of basic logic problems. That article only asserts discussions of the current administration have been held to discuss the issue. The Soviet Union has had suit case bombs and other mini-nukes for decades.
Yes, the number of the nuclear weapons are coming down. But too slowly. Not USA or Russia has the real will to get rid of their weapons. They should show an example to all of the countries and get rid of the weapons as soon as possible. That would give a great example to every nation. Now your army is still building nuclear weapons. Only smaller than the ones before. Plus USA has added to their military strategy a possibility to commit a preventive strike. Now how's that for an example? And lets keep in mind that those START contracts don't even cover the tactic nuclear weapons, only strategic.

---> It takes time. I think preventing global nuclear proliferation is more important than worrying about how fast the US is diminishing their stockpile of nuclear missles. Because we are not going to use them except in self defense. It's policy here. You are either showing your ignorance of reality in your pursuit of idealism that can never be real in this age or your desire to crush our freedom loving nation in a world historically so devoid of such a thing in saying we should completely disarm ourselves of nuclear warheads and stand naked before all others with as "an example." In my opinion, you are either a deluded fool or an evil person to say that. Hundreds of millions of people live here guy in relative freedom and security. Showing that stick is one of the reasons we are still here. History is against you.
Well why come on here saying it isn't going on if you haven't even researched it properly. That's one of your problems I think. Go research the issue. In fact, go educate yourself properly. I already have. Your conclusions are drivel. I think you are more the hypocrite because you enjoy the benefits of a free world but don't know how to just say thank you. You sit there and just make these ridiculous statements as if you really know anything about them when you don't seem to have any idea what is going on. Get some formal training in information systems, government, economics, organization, communication, logic, etc.. and then try to convince people you know something. I can't see any qualifications to justify your "speaking" like an expert or something. Your positions are silly really in my opinion.
What isn't going on? The big scale torturing in North Korea? I have tried to look some proofs about that, but couldn't find any. Even Amnesty couldn't certify that, and they should know. But if you got some proofs about that, I'm happy to see those. There's a lot of propaganda going on in this North Korea matter as I already have stated. You just cannot believe every single news article.

---> It's everywhere. Just type North Korea Torture into a search engine and start learning. http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/16/nkorea8445.htm for example. I like to read the "propaganda" from the defectors who show the marks of serious torture and starvation in the prison camps of North Korea for not showing the proper "vigor" at the forced rallys for example.

And I'm not an expert in these matters, but I do follow this North Korea situation whit great interest. I've read many books about it, and I've went thru a lot of different kinds of web pages about this matter. All I'm saying is that you can't believe everything that the mainstream media is telling you. Many people got "good" reasons to lie about North Korea. Especially nowadays.

---> Neither am I but you are reckless in comparison. You would take a nation of hundreds of millions of people and put them naked before their enemies. Unbelievable. You are a sick person. And it's no secret North Korea has a gulag system of prisons for those who don't "go with the program" where horrible things happen.
blah blah blah.. grow up. I have lived here and traveled the nation for over forty years. I know my own backyard and my government. Why do I need a foreigner who listens to foreign disinformation to tell me what I see and know is true, isn't really true. Where are you from again?
I'm from Finland. That also I have made clear for many times. That even reads under my name here. So are you saying that you do not have those problems I said? You don't have large (and numerous) ghettos there? You don't have millions of homeless people there? You don't have a huge depth? Do I need to go on..? After all these problems you're still using a huge amount of money to wars. I'm watching the news, and I see many americans saying that that's not right. But apparently you can see the great wisdom behind that.

---> We have hundreds of millions of people that aren't in ghettos nor homeless. No country this size can have a zero poverty problem. Yes go on so I can put it in perspective for you. Let's pull the country's financial statements over the last one hundred years. On the other hand, we were attacked and defended ourselves in Afghanistan, then discovered this was a global terrorist issue and not just a single country, so our administration chose to attempt to fix the problem in their way and not just put a band aid on it. The news agencies are geared toward reporting whatever tragic situation has recently happened rather than all of the peacefulness in most of the country and positive things going on there. You like many, focus on the minority issues.
I don't give a rip about Finland. What do they have to do with us other than we would come to their aid if they needed us and we have a number of intellectual and business relationships with them. Aww you are Finnish. Something fishy about that.. haha.. just a joke. Sure then you know what people think there. But you are playing Mr. Expert about what is going on here and talking to educated competent people telling them a bunch of BS.
Now why would we need your aid? We don't even got no oil in here, didn't you know that? ;)

---> Well you do have a tendency to ally with Nazis historically but we would still come and help your sorry asses out if you were attacked. But of course if we had no nukes and had not yet been attacked with nukes by a country that had them (as you have suggested) then we would be told to lay off or we would suffer the nuclear consequences and you would be integrated against your will into the stronger system. But then that's how that works in reality and not the fantasy of your mind.
We have a whole bunch of cultures here. Going to have to say you are wrong because there is no "culture" here that forms the backbone of our country. There is a political system, however, that does. See what I mean, you just aren't correct. You are merely talking about your objections to the way we handle foreign policy but aren't smart enough to know the difference between the two.
Yes, I know that you don't have your own, one culture. But I was speaking about North Korea's culture. Or every other nations culture. Saying that if you don't understand the culture, it's very difficult to understand the people in it. That's a simple fact. And that's why people can't condemn the other nations if they first haven't study the culture of them.

---> No you don't understand. We don't have this culture like every other country which consists of mostly one or a few people groups. This is a giant patchwork/melting pot of people here. Any shared beliefs we have in the majority revolve around a dual party political system that works most of the time for most of the people.
Well you sounded initially like we needed to immediately go to Jung Communism there.. Whoa! Not going to happen. Damn straight we have our freedom loving nation here and it has made many here very wealthy with a historical trend of people moving up through classes (Note the poor have always been with us and they always will). There is much opportunity here you can't even believe it. Maybe that is why you choose not to.
You know, you really don't have to tell me again and again how much you're loving freedom. Every single person in this world is loving freedom. You're no different in that matter. The more and more you're repeating it, the more and more it just sounds an empty slogan that's set to keep your mind right. I don't mean that as an insult, but that's just how it sounds.

---> No they aren't. Another untruth. The dictators and those who have a vested interest in the dictatorship are not freedom loving. The house is not the field as some of my friends would say. I repeat it because you need to understand and hear that your ideas, such as disarming the entire USA nuclear wise, would soon result in hundreds of millions of people's loss of freedom around the world many deaths if put into effect. God help us all then. I see you as a very dangerous idealist.

"But what you're not understanding is that (yes it's coming along WAY too slow) but we are slowly picking up steam and moving toward a clean environment direction ."

I do understand that. But a little bit differently than you. It's not a long time ago when you're government stated again that you're not going to sign the Kioto contract. And that's not the right direction. Not particularly because that contract is already way too old. If all the nations in the world would follow that contract starting from tomorrow, that wouldn't be enough at all. We need far more strict environment contracts. The temperature is rising pretty rapidly. That's one of the main reason why Florida was hit whit that many hurricanes last year. And that's why there's been such a many severe floods all over the world. In my opinion the only solution to stop that is to every nation in the world to cut down their consuming. I've done that in my part and I hope that every single person (especially in the western countries) would do the same. People are constantly bying stuff they don't really need. But then again, that I think is the main problem whit capitalism. Every company is trying to make more and more profit. That means that they're making more and more (consuming) products. And that means more and more pollution. And that means that the temperature just keeps rising.

--->Now you are kind of talking out your butt.. lol. But it is late and I don't want to try to educate you on astronomy, astrophysics, geology, physics, mathematics, etc.. (especially the history of the sun and earth and the scientific relationship between them). I don't think you are close to having that discussion with me. You just keep blaming away.. what kind of car do you drive? BTW greenhouse gasses in the USA have gone down considerably over the past few years but developing countries have caused them to rise overall.
We all have to live here on this planet you know.
Exactly. So carry your responsibility as a individual, and then as a nation.[/quote]

This from someone whose idealism would bring result in totalitarianism, suffering, and death throughout the free world if his views were implemented.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 28th, 2005, 9:45 am

Alright, alright. Now I know where you coming from. You're one of those Christian fundamentalist.
Why are you in a position to judge Creator God and if you don't believe in him then why should we care about what you think is right and wrong anyway as ultimately there is no meaning? What is YOUR moral authority by which you make your claims.
Why my opinions don't matter if and when I don't believe in God? Well, I don't believe in any god. For me the Bible is just an old book which was set to keep the nations under the leaders will. For me it's pretty funny that people even nowadays really believe that God created Earth and every human in it, and only a few thousand years ago.

My moral authority? Why should I have some moral AUTHORITY? Why would people need authorities in the matters of moral?

Lets get these things straight before going any further.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Mraka » January 28th, 2005, 9:59 am

I think that us-folks opinion does not fit into real politics.
There is no chance for you ,from US to make a point in an political debate.
One cause is,that you say US anytime you think US has done good.
Then you are not exchanging opinions with one another but react despotic.
I heard some facts,that add on to nowadays d i p l o m a c y ,and how good everything is in america :Not everything ,but the arming around there seems to be.That is the weakest point you make.
The other role,as a world police US choose itself,others got nothing to do with it.And on a closer look there were some wars and military actions made up for money.Not for interrest;because no thing has to be destroyend for a iterrested look at it.
We got quite more contact and care about indypendent media(indymedia.org),so there is not really something new about your way of live,but you do not really know what we are kind of.I mentioned before,what goes on, on scene we are informed of,and got backed up be a student of Juchee ideology of which I read the first time not a month a go.YOu Kemo,are only underlining what is disturbing us already.
The issues about WW2 would fill another topic:all in all USA wasn`t too much into it.During that time that,chaplin put it right,and america was aware of what was going on.Before there was much antisemitism in USA.
Our grandfathers were fighting and killing each other with guns and granades in the biggest bloodiest war going on since mankind.They suffered and died all across europe.We would like to be the last postwar generations` sons and daughters.Would you like it too?
It is like izard says.See for yourself.Maybe you impress`em, and bring peace there.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 28th, 2005, 10:40 am

Kemosave wrote:For example, the German election stats show on March 5, 1933 that 17.28 million Germans voted for the Nazi party representing 43.9% of the total population. Prove that in 1933 the USA had more than 17.28 million Nazi's. You can't because we didn't.
Yes, at their best they could get that 43,9% support, but most of the time they had only about 20% support. Many times even much, much lower. And that 43,9% support they had at a time when they had put almost every member of the pretty popular Communist party into the jails. Plus they didn't let anyone outside of the Nazi party or other right-wing parties to campaign.

Here's a book for you: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 44-3276017 And that's not even the only (or even the best) book about that matter. And remember that supporting don't mean that they would have to form a party and to go to elections. At some point over 20% of americans were supporting the Nazi _ideology_. I have one book in Finnish about those matters, but it hasn't been published in English.
(except for some kooks which you have in any case everywhere including Finland who was actually a Nazi ally during WWII!).
Do you really think that you're telling me something that I didn't know? Oh boy. How much do you know about our history? About our civil war? About Mannerheim? About the conditions (and mistakes) that made some of our politicians to alley whit Nazis? Not much apparently. I've never ever got any respect for Mannerheim. He was the slaughterer of his own people. My grand-grandfather was killed because of his order, as well as tens of thousands other Finnish revolutionaries.

But even that don't mean that I would deny the Nazi symphaties in Finland during the second WW. That's true. Finland was fighting whit Germany, because of our BS politicians. Soviet Union tried to make a deal whit us, but our president didn't take it, but allied whit Germany. I got a lot of hate towards those f**ks who made those decisions, but I'm not trying to deny our country's history like you are.
But you just go blah blah blah talking nonsense. Your facts aren't straight and your conclusions are wrong.
That's what I'm thinking every time I read your writings.

It's like Mraka said: you're just underlining what is disturbing us already. You don't come up whit any answers at all.

Here's more links to books about the Nazi movement in USA: http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/fox ... ts?1002121

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Unread post by Kemosave » January 28th, 2005, 1:35 pm

Alright, alright. Now I know where you coming from. You're one of those Christian fundamentalist.

---> Nope. Nice try though. I would guess that you know nothing apparently of material worth in the areas of astronomy, astrophysics, physics, high math, microbiology, ancient history, archeology, etc... and how all of these disciplines work together and point toward a Creator. I'm so glad that you are wrong. There is no future for you but for those of us with understanding our fate is not to end up nothing but dead matter billions of years from now in a dead expanding universe. You are a scoffer who does not know what is real and is content to be so. Your morality of what you feel is right and wrong is meaningless to me now just as it is meaningless in the end to you.
Why are you in a position to judge Creator God and if you don't believe in him then why should we care about what you think is right and wrong anyway as ultimately there is no meaning? What is YOUR moral authority by which you make your claims.
Why my opinions don't matter if and when I don't believe in God? Well, I don't believe in any god. For me the Bible is just an old book which was set to keep the nations under the leaders will. For me it's pretty funny that people even nowadays really believe that God created Earth and every human in it, and only a few thousand years ago.

---> Then you are a cloud without rain. A little man scoffing at those with understanding and a future. Like a blind man arguing madly that stars don't exist because he cannot see them. A small man intellectually who has drawn a false conclusion. The Bible is a compilation of ancient manuscripts that deserve more attention than a fool gives them. For example, were you aware they were the first ever manuscript to properly lay out that the universe had a beginning and originated from transcendence? Probably not. A fool and a scoffer doesn't bother to educate themselves regarding facts and have no basis for a moral position but simply blow hot air around like what they have to say is somehow important.

My moral authority? Why should I have some moral AUTHORITY? Why would people need authorities in the matters of moral?

---> If you have no real moral authority for your position then your position is meaningless. You are just full of hot air blabbing away and nothing you say has any real meaning. You are a cloud without rain and a future.
Last edited by Kemosave on January 28th, 2005, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Kemosave » January 28th, 2005, 1:57 pm

--->For example, the German election stats show on March 5, 1933 that 17.28 million Germans voted for the Nazi party representing 43.9% of the total population. Prove that in 1933 the USA had more than 17.28 million Nazi's. You can't because we didn't.

Yes, at their best they could get that 43,9% support, but most of the time they had only about 20% support. Many times even much, much lower. And that 43,9% support they had at a time when they had put almost every member of the pretty popular Communist party into the jails. Plus they didn't let anyone outside of the Nazi party or other right-wing parties to campaign.

---> Not after things got rolling. It wasn't like there was a two party system once the Nazi's came to their full power.

Here's a book for you: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 44-3276017 And that's not even the only (or even the best) book about that matter. And remember that supporting don't mean that they would have to form a party and to go to elections. At some point over 20% of americans were supporting the Nazi _ideology_. I have one book in Finnish about those matters, but it hasn't been published in English.

---> Not after 1942 pal. Only before.
(except for some kooks which you have in any case everywhere including Finland who was actually a Nazi ally during WWII!).
Do you really think that you're telling me something that I didn't know? Oh boy. How much do you know about our history? About our civil war? About Mannerheim? About the conditions (and mistakes) that made some of our politicians to alley whit Nazis? Not much apparently. I've never ever got any respect for Mannerheim. He was the slaughterer of his own people. My grand-grandfather was killed because of his order, as well as tens of thousands other Finnish revolutionaries.

---> But your naturalistic belief system voids any ultimate importance that anyone's sacrifice has. In your belief system of naturalism emotions nor beliefs can have no ultimate meaning just as life has no ultimate meaning (to you).

But even that don't mean that I would deny the Nazi symphaties in Finland during the second WW. That's true. Finland was fighting whit Germany, because of our BS politicians. Soviet Union tried to make a deal whit us, but our president didn't take it, but allied whit Germany. I got a lot of hate towards those f**ks who made those decisions, but I'm not trying to deny our country's history like you are.

---> Who cares what you think? All is ultimately meaningless in your belief system. Why bother if there is no ultimate moral authority to try to do "good?"
But you just go blah blah blah talking nonsense. Your facts aren't straight and your conclusions are wrong.
That's what I'm thinking every time I read your writings.

It's like Mraka said: you're just underlining what is disturbing us already. You don't come up whit any answers at all.

---> You don't disturb me. Now that I know you subscribe to a position that has no ultimate meaning and recognizes no real moral authority over the universe, by your own beliefs I see no reason to care what you say. Following your own logic, you have made yourselves and everything you hold to as ultimately meaningless.
Last edited by Kemosave on January 29th, 2005, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Mraka » January 28th, 2005, 2:29 pm

O,oh
Now you know what time it is.Think we are lucky ,that there will be no big movement that claims planet is flat.Will it??
At least to say you both are of topic.
Now to pull a new string.I was familliar with a Socialistic country called Yugoslavia.
I am a the age to see what Communist east Germany did,and how it affects the poeple since the fall of the Berlin wall.
I read `Gulag' of Solschenizyn a while ago,and would say by now,that all depends on each mans decision.
After Stalin died,many prisoners were released and some of the Judges went therefore to the Gulag.
So there is action+reaction.And it really depends on the political structure and organization of federal institutions.Usa has to ask itself if it isn`t dangerous to keep it that way they do;for somebody actually can pull the strings in a very ugly way.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Kemosave » January 28th, 2005, 4:14 pm

O,oh now you know what time it is.Think we are lucky, that there will be no big movement that claims planet is flat. Will it??

---> And where do you get your authority from to say what is right and what is wrong morally well we are on the subject. The world is not flat even if a flat earth society still exists.

At least to say you both are of topic.

---> I disagree. This is where people often get confused. Disciplines often have ramifications for each other. For example, to come on here saying what is morally right and what is morally wrong regarding political systems and the choices of men means that you must have some form of moral authority that is ultimately meaningful to make those statements or you are just putting out a hot air that has no ultimate meaning. What is really sad to me, someone with understanding of the universe, history, etc.. is that you then model this onto your kids robbing them of any ultimate hope.

Now to pull a new string. I was familliar with a Socialistic country called Yugoslavia. I am a the age to see what Communist east Germany did, and how it affects the poeple since the fall of the Berlin wall. I read `Gulag' of Solschenizyn a while ago, and would say by now,that all depends on each mans decision.

---> Wait a minute Solschenizyn appealed to a higher power specifically a transcendent moral agent as in the Creator of the universe. You say that each man's decision is simply each man's choice. BUT if he asserts a moral value then what is his basis for that. If you say there is none each man simply make his own choice and there is no ultimate moral basis or eternal hope for humanity then you are not worth listening too regarding these issues especially (stress especially) as the totality of emperical evidence into the best fit shows exactly the opposite of that.

After Stalin died, many prisoners were released and some of the Judges went therefore to the Gulag. So there is action+reaction. And it really depends on the political structure and organization of federal institutions.

---> The principles of cause and effect are well known.

Usa has to ask itself if it isn`t dangerous to keep it that way they do;for somebody actually can pull the strings in a very ugly way.

---> It's been working fine in the aggregate. Our clear separation of powers (executive, legislative, judicial) helps insulate us from what happened in other places and times including Germany and helps protect the people's freedom. I've heard no better proposed system that would work in reality here. Only idealist appeals to systems that have proven themselves not to work in reality in the aggregate.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Mraka » January 29th, 2005, 8:03 am

No Kemosave
You are absolutely wrong.We try it all the time to make it as easy as possible for you.Don`t try to understand :flat erath society,is a group that meets once a year and has their name for excentric british houmor reason.
Problem is the actions that were taken by church and/or in the name of bible.The way you quote the Bible is the same to legalize any action for gods sake.That`s why America got empty since Columbus.And all he wanted to prove ,was that the ocean doesn`t stop suddenly.Some years before he may have been killed by the holy inquisittion!
The problem described in `Gulag`is not at all what you wrote here.It is about the fact that the poeple that run the political imprisonment system choose to make false accusatiosn and false decissions.
So your system went mad when Mc Carthy had his inquiries.It`s about poeple doing wrong in the name of a system.
So is it in North Korea;you have to refer to the system ,but its about the commanding chain ,that makes it good or worse.
It is not about your president deciding who things have to be.
For ex.:some schools in US made the decision to teach the development of earth in line with the bible ,and not in the actual version.
That is happening within your system.It can be good or bad but you can`t compare culture.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Kemosave » January 29th, 2005, 2:13 pm

No Mraka,

You are absolutely wrong. I try all the time to make it easy as possible for you to understand. Yes the flat earth society was a bit of humor. You must have took that seriously. Educated people in the middle ages knew that the earth was a sphere. The story about Columbus arguing with the Church officials about the earth not being flat comes from none other than American Nathaniel Hawthorn. He put it in a book of "historical" fiction. The real subject of the discussion was not the shape of the earth, but the size. Columbus had it wrong! The church officials, who had read Eratosthenes, knew the real size. If Columbus had not run into America he would have run out of water and died long before reaching China.

One of your biggest problems is that you confuse the authentic assemblies of believers with political powers leveraging it as a third party influence to increase their power not to mention the obvious that all governments claiming a moral position need a justification (1). You don't have a clue about what an authentic Christian position really is. You don't read the Bible. You don't know what it says and cannot talk about it in specifics but feel the need to keep regurgitating untruths regarding it. Another problem is that you are unfamiliar with how ancient manuscripts are examined from a scholarly perspective and I assure you that the Bible is an important historical collection of ancient manuscripts. So it is no wonder you misunderstand things you are not familiar with. What I don't understand is why you spend all your time fighting that which you don't properly understand from a position of great emotion. Now where do you get your moral authority to say what is right and wrong again from? We're still on that argument and you have not answered my question.

The problem described in `Gulag`is not at all what you wrote here. It is about the fact that the poeple that run the political imprisonment system choose to make false accusatiosn and false decissions.

---> I've read the books probably more than you have. You need to go reread them again and see what the author is inferring regarding his ultimate moral authority and why that has ultimate meaning. You have missed that point.

So your system went mad when Mc Carthy had his inquiries.It`s about poeple doing wrong in the name of a system.
So is it in North Korea;you have to refer to the system ,but its about the commanding chain ,that makes it good or worse.
It is not about your president deciding who things have to be.
For ex.:some schools in US made the decision to teach the development of earth in line with the bible ,and not in the actual version.
That is happening within your system.It can be good or bad but you can`t compare culture.

--->Not as mad as yours did. Not as mad as Communist experiments of the last century did. Really it was just a bump in the road which we learned from and you are taking it all out of context by trying to compare the two. As for your belief about how are schools run here.. those are called private schools. The public ones typically do not allow that to occur in fact in Alabama a recent ruling upheld the secular view. Culture is not and never has been the issue here. The oppression and mistreatment of a people by it's government has been. Culture is not the point!

-----------------

(1) The Christian church of the first three centuries was pacifist. Check out Introduction to the History of Christianity, ed. Tim Dowley. Obviously Christ never would have fought for Rome. Paul would not have either. Nor any of the apostles or believers of that time. But Paul spoke highly of Rome when he wrote to the believers in Rome. He urged them to submit to the authorities, only a few years after a mass expulsion of all Jews from the city by the authorities during riots. Was the type of submission he was talking about including giving one's one life into the hands of generals and politicians? Or was he making another statement against violence, seeing what a tinderbox Rome was? When Jerusalem was leveled during the Jewish wars of 70 A.D., the Christians fled the city, sealing the rift between Jews and the Christian Church that was predominantly Jewish at the time. After that, it was viewed as a separate religion and later became known as a Gentile faith. History shows that there was no militancy to speak of within Christianity until Emperor Constantine got converted. In many Christian's eyes, this was the beginning of A wretched decline for the faith. The persecution of the Church ended which is wonderful, but then the bishops and scholars began to turn on themselves and bring persecution INTO Christianity! The Church even allowed the government to intervene in Church matters as if the Emperor knew anything about it.

Now is the time to differentiate between the invisible Church made up of those who have a real authentic relationship with Christ and a political church which is the new way to rise to the top: the Emperor likes it, therefore I will too. This kind of thinking swept through the social, political, and military ranks of society until it became the new tool to justify the empire and its actions. And leaders within the political church bought into their new influence and prestige, accepting the bribe of power and all its perks. The cross went on the shields, and off the soldiers went to fight for Rome (in the name only of Christ). This was the first horrible union of Christianity with nationalism/patriotism. Today there are multiple states with this same dysfunctional marriage. (Note: Theocracy was not a New Testament option, nor one today).

The majority of Jews in Israel at the time of Jesus were seeking a political revolution through the Messiah, to be free from Rome, but Christ didn't come for that AT ALL. His Kingdom Is above, as HE explained to Pilate. And so Christians live for the same Kingdom. But what about this big government thing that keeps sending me bills? Well, that's certainly not something to be ignored. None of our people really ignored it during the days of the early Church. Government played its role in every day life. But it definitely wasn't the center. When Paul was writing to the believers in Rome, he knew it was to the advantage of all Christians to have a government that was more or less indifferent to Christianity. That's all Paul needed to travel about freely, declaring the Gospel to every city and soul he could find. The system of the Roman empire favored communication and travel, and he used both of these extensively. All the Church needed was justice and the freedoms to declare the Gospel, meet together, and worship God. And that's all we need today. But even the word "need" is conditional. Obviously Satan was uncomfortable with the situation in 70 A.D. and made his move. Yet the Church surged forward when persecution broke out against it. It became outlawed with the harshest penalties, yet it refused to die. God made it grow under all circumstances, and brought good out of anything.

Today, the basics of what the Christian needs to practice Christianity in the open are justice, freedoms of speech, religion, and assembly. Of course, without these, we continue onward as always with all the more perseverance and conviction. But we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves in times of peace by taking more of the pie than we potentially can. Taking over the government is the same as the government taking over the Church. Nobody wins. What we favor is the secular government that Christians influence in the appropriate ways, chiefly seeing justice and those freedoms maintained. I make a point out of justice for a few reasons. God makes it clear throughout the entire Bible that He hates injustice, and judges nations accordingly when they embrace the latter. It's also to our advantage to advocate it in government. When any government takes a liking to injustice - whether it means rigged trials, allowing the rich to trample the poor, persecution of minorities - they take a disliking to true Christianity, because it defends the downtrodden. This comes out extremely well through the example of Nazi Germany, where a German pastor poured out his heart in writings from within a prison cell before dying under persecution by his government.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Thus Hitler said: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." And what a profound statement this madman made. One could not be a true Christian and usher Jews or Gypsies into the gas chambers. Hitler saw that his ideal of German nationalism was incompatible with the Christianity of Christ. One had to go, and so there were many other examples like the pastor's in Nazi prisons and labor camps throughout Europe. So a government that loves injustice will hate Christianity.

Any government that demands absolute allegiance to its own cause will persecute Christians as well. Look at how every communist government in history has treated Christianity (in addition to other faiths). And even the "Christian" governments of Europe began persecuting non-conformist elements within the Church, particularly other denominations. In Latin America, governments such as El Salvador's turned on the Church when the Church finally turned against the government's absolute corruption and violence to break the unholy alliance. What are the patriotic causes of today's government? War, national security, and always money. If we don't start making the U-turn soon, this government will begin acting hostile towards people who take a public stance on these issues in a way that might jeopardize its own agenda. The rights spoken of above are already eroding away under the pressure of fear and greed. Anyways, from the historical vantage point, the proper nature of the relationship between Church & state should be one of friction. While the Church recognizes the right of government to govern, it refuses to be silent about any form of corruption or injustice it sees. This can come at great cost, but the cost of compromise has proven greater.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Mraka » January 29th, 2005, 5:33 pm

oh man
are you a robot or a computer program?
what the hack has the christianity thing to do here?or "Gulag"?You are blinded and actually one of those who infact does something wrong with reading the bible or interpreting it for others.
Nobody but you compares north Korea or other country with US .I even cannot think of to make a conclusion like you did.
Mine was :Poeple in position make the rules how they interprete law and justice.I am from a slavian country and could read it again in orgin if I had to ,but under effort.`'
So was apartheid in US till the 60´ies.There may`ve been poeple that didn`t care,but it was common right!
You know that you quoted passages of the bible that bad(likely being practice or common that way), that somebody can get angry mad about it.
There is a way to show wiseness or eloquency ,so let somebody speak about the theme he studied about,and that was lizzard!
THe last totaly false globe that came out in the middle ages was probably Martin Beheims' in 1492
Galileo Galilei had inquisiton trial 1633

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by Kemosave » January 31st, 2005, 12:27 pm

oh man are you a robot or a computer program?

---> I am an educated person who did not choose to remain in the ignorance you are choosing to remain in.

what the hack has the christianity thing to do here?or "Gulag"?You are blinded and actually one of those who infact does something wrong with reading the bible or interpreting it for others.

---> You brought it up. I responded eloquently to help you elevate from your ignorance. But not every fool wants to gain wisdom. You don't know what you are talking about. You can't back it up. All you can do is make assertions that are not accurate followed by false accusations. I realize I am an educated person with formal training talking to uneducated person who gets his information from unscholarly places off the internet and doesn't know the difference, but still if you ever want to know the difference about history, science, and religion in context (yes they have ramifications for each other as I must be explaining to your hard head for about the third time) etc.. then you need to have an accurate basis for that first. You don't. That's why you ramble on like a crazy person saying the things you do because you really don't the difference.

Nobody but you compares north Korea or other country with US .I even cannot think of to make a conclusion like you did.

---> I am participating in a discussion about North Korea and one of the topics that came up was ideology. I did not begin that train of thought but yes I did reply to it and continue to. Since ideologies came into the discussion we discussed them. Again science, philosophy/theology, history, politics, all of these disciplines do not live in a glass house and are simply parts of the whole (4th time explained to you).

Mine was :Poeple in position make the rules how they interprete law and justice.I am from a slavian country and could read it again in orgin if I had to ,but under effort.`'

---> Make the effort! It's worth it. Understand the things I say to you. I am trying to help you educate yourself so you don't continue to live in a place of false information and ignorance.

So was apartheid in US till the 60´ies.There may`ve been poeple that didn`t care,but it was common right!

---> I can't speak on apartheid. But I was around in the 60's.

You know that you quoted passages of the bible that bad(likely being practice or common that way), that somebody can get angry mad about it.

---> You should educate yourself on what the Bible really says and how it was hijacked by politicians and religious leaders who ended up persecuting real Christians just as the religious system of the day persecuted Christ. You need to educate yourself formally and not just say dumb things that aren't true about things you don't understand.

There is a way to show wiseness or eloquency ,so let somebody speak about the theme he studied about,and that was lizzard!

---> Haha! Good joke.

THe last totaly false globe that came out in the middle ages was probably Martin Beheims' in 1492 Galileo Galilei had inquisiton trial 1633.

---> Oh you think you something again? Well let a scholarly study prime you about the situation so you actually do know something. This will be a good primer for you to see what a real lesson might look like rather than those false internet sites you've been scouring.

The influential British mathematician-philosopher Bertrand Russell once remarked, "I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue." In his popular and controversial work "Why I Am Not A Christian," Russell leveled the charge that Christianity, in particular, has served as an opponent of all intellectual progress, especially progress in science.1 Since Russell's time, other outspoken advocates of a naturalistic worldview have echoed Russell's claim, asserting that Christianity is incompatible with-even hostile to-the findings of modern science. Many in our culture view Christianity as unscientific, at best, anti-scientific at worst.

Conflicts between scientific theories and the Christian faith have arisen through the centuries, to be sure. However, the level of conflict has often been seriously exaggerated, and Christianity's positive influence on scientific progress is seldom acknowledged.2 Let's honestly look at Christianity's compatibility with and furtherance of scientific endeavor.

(1) The intellectual climate that gave rise to modern science (roughly three centuries ago) was decisively shaped by Christianity.3 Not only were most of the founding fathers of science themselves devout Christians (including Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Boyle, and Pascal),4 but the Christian worldview provided a basis for modern science both to emerge and to flourish.

Christian theism affirmed that an infinite, eternal, and personal God created the world ex nihilo. The creation, reflecting the rational nature of the Creator, was therefore orderly and uniform. Further, humankind was uniquely created in God's image (Gen. 1:26-7), thus capable of reasoning and of discovering the intelligibility of the created order. In effect, the Christian worldview supported the underlying principles that made scientific inquiry possible and desirable.

Eminent historian and philosopher of science Stanley Jaki has argued that science was "stillborn" in other great civilizations outside Europe because of prevailing ideas that stifled scientific development, e.g., a cyclical approach to time, an astrological approach to the heavens, metaphysical views that either deified nature (animism) or denied it (idealism).5

(2) The principles underlying the scientific method (testability, verification/falsification) arise from the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. The experimental method was clearly nurtured by Christian doctrine.6 Because the Christian founders of modern science believed that the heavens genuinely declare the glory of God (Ps. 19: 1), they possessed both the necessary conceptual framework and the spiritual incentive to boldly explore nature's mysteries.

According to Christian theism, God has disclosed Himself in two dynamic ways: through special revelation (God's redemptive actions recorded in the Bible - "God's book") and through general revelation (God's creative actions discoverable in nature - "God's world"). Puritan scientists in England and in America viewed the study of science as a sacred attempt to "think God's thoughts after Him."7

While Christians have plenty of room to grow in the virtues of discernment, reflection, and vigorous analysis, the wisdom literature of the Old Testament consistently exhorts God's people to exercise them, and the New Testament teaches the same message (see Col. 2:8; 1 Thes. 5:2 1; 1 Jn. 4: 1). These principles served as the backdrop for the emerging experimental method.

(3) Some of the philosophical presuppositions foundational to the study of science include these: the existence of an objectively real world, the comprehensibility of that world, the reliability of sense perception and human rationality, the orderliness and uniformity of nature, and the validity of mathematics and logic.8

These necessary preconditions of science are rooted in Christian theism's claims of an infinite, eternal, and personal creator who has carefully ordered the universe and provided man with a mind that corresponds to the universe's intelligibility. This Christian schema served as the intellectual breeding ground for modern science. It sustained science and enabled it to flourish. How does naturalism compare? Does it explain or provide fertile ground for the birth and progress of science?

Consider how a naturalist might answer the following questions: How can a world that is the product of blind, non-purposeful processes account for and justify the crucial conditions that make the scientific enterprise even possible? How does naturalism justify the inductive method, assumptions about the uniformity of nature, and the existence of abstract, non-empirical entities such as numbers, propositions, and the laws of logic if the world is the product of a mindless accident? According to naturalism, isn't even the human mind one accident in a series of many accidents?9 If so, how can we have any confidence it steers us toward truth? How could such a concept as truth even be conceived?

Christian philosopher Greg L. Bahnsen argues not only that naturalism fails to justify its underlying presuppositions but also that naturalists illegitimately rest their scientific endeavors on Christian theistic principles. Naturalists borrow from Christianity. Consider this insightful observation by physicist and popular author Paul Davies:

People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature-the laws of physics-are simply accepted as given, as brute facts. Nobody asks where they came from; at least they do not do so in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.10

One may wonder if science would have arisen had the dominant metaphysical views of the time been naturalistic and materialistic. Would naturalism have been able to sustain the scientific enterprise that Christian theism generated? The eminent Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga gives his opinion: "Modern science was conceived, and born, and flourished in the matrix of Christian theism. Only liberal doses of self-deception and double-think, I believe, will permit it to flourish in the context of Darwinian naturalism."11

(4) The prevailing scientific notions of big bang cosmology and the emerging anthropic principle seem uniquely compatible with Christian theism. Since the universe had a singular beginning, we have a logical right and reason to inquire about its cause. Gottfried Leibniz's classic question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" seems even more provocative in light of what we now know about the big bang universe. Is it more reasonable to believe that the universe came into existence from nothing by nothing or that, as the Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"?

References:
1. Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not A Christian (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957), pp. vi, 22-26.
2. See Charles E. Hummel, The Galileo Connection (Downers Grove, IL.: InterVarsity Press, 1986).
3. See Stanley Jaki, Science and Creation: From Eternal Cycles to an Oscillating Universe (Scottish Academic Press, 1974); R. Hooykaas, Religion and the Rise of Modern Science (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1972); and Eric V. Snow, "Christianity: A Cause of Modern Science?", August 4, 1998, http://www.geocities.com.
4. See Charles E. Hummel, The Galileo Connection. While Newton was a serious student of the Bible, serious questions have been raised about whether his theological views were thoroughly orthodox.
5. Stanley Jaki, Science and Creation.
6. Kenneth L.Woodward,"How the Heavens Go,"' Newsweek, July 20, 1998, p. 52.
7. See Charles Hummel, p. 162.
8. See Charles Hummel, pp. 158-9. For a more detailed discussion of the philosophical presuppositions of science, see J. P. Moreland, ed., The Creation Hypothesis (Downers Grove, IL.: InterVarsity Press, 1994), p. 17.
9. Richard Taylor, Metaphysics, 4th ed. (Englewood Cliffs, NJ.: Prentice Hall, 1992), pp. 110-12.
10. As cited in Michael Bumbulis, "Christianity and the Birth of Science," August 4, 1998, p. 21, http://www.best.com.
11. Alvin Plantinga, "Darwin, Mind and Meaning", November 17, 1997, p. 8, http:Hid-www.ucsb.edu.

And that my friend is a scholarly study on the issue and not just a blab of false assertions strung together from conspiracy sites like you have been putting out. So my question to you is what are you going to do about your ignorance? Most do nothing. Peace.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 31st, 2005, 4:20 pm

Kemosave wrote:But your naturalistic belief system voids any ultimate importance that anyone's sacrifice has. In your belief system of naturalism emotions nor beliefs can have no ultimate meaning just as life has no ultimate meaning (to you).
Go ahead, tell me about our "naturalistic belief system". I'm listening. And I'm extremely interested about the facts that how our supposed "belief system of naturalism emotions" cannot include any moral standards. And why only people who believe in the same god than you can have moral, and therefore they only can discuss about matters of the world. Why is it like that? How do you prove it? And please, don't copy/paste anything from some christian netsite. Tell it whit your own words.
Now that I know you subscribe to a position that has no ultimate meaning and recognizes no real moral authority over the universe, by your own beliefs I see no reason to care what you say.
You still speak about how important it is to have a moral AUTHORITY, but yet you haven't give me even a single reason to believe so. So I'll ask you again: Why should I have some moral AUTHORITY? Why would people need authorities in the matters of moral? And please, no copy/paste here either. I really don't want to read some religious propaganda about how everything after all was created by your God. You can post hundreds of pages of that, and I still don't believe it.

And you know what? That obsession of yours towards the Bible really narrows down your view of things. You can't understand the world thru a one book. That only makes your world very black & white. You need to learn to see things as they are. Not as they are shown in a Bible.

Do you see any chance at all, that Bush & Co. would/could use your (and every American) christian moral values and believes for his own purposes? You know, using the words like "evil", and naming one "evil" leader at a time (first Bil Laden, then Saddam Hussein, then...) so that you would feel like fighting a war for all that good that you believe in your religion? So that you would think that you're on a mission from God? And I know that Bush has said that himself, so... What do you think? Is he using you?

Oh, and for a last thing.. How do you feel about muslims? Are they believing in the wrong God? And if so, then why is that so? Or rastafarians? Or hindus? Or jews? You see where I'm getting..? Every religious people believes firmly on their own god, and thinks that every others gods are false. But who says who is wrong?

Need to edit (/add) this question:

I'm just curious, but do you follow the Old or the New Testament?
Last edited by punamusta on January 31st, 2005, 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by BlaKK » January 31st, 2005, 4:31 pm

Lizard there is no "youre god", and there is no "My god" God remains the Infinite everywhere, only man manipulates that, He remains as one. In the world we live in today there is no Moral Authority, Not when everyone has thier own Rights thier own Wrongs, there is no Absolute only Perception, And that is gonna lead to the end of us. Mark my word.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 31st, 2005, 4:54 pm

BlaKK wrote:Lizard there is no "youre god", and there is no "My god" God remains the Infinite everywhere, only man manipulates that, He remains as one. In the world we live in today there is no Moral Authority, Not when everyone has thier own Rights thier own Wrongs, there is no Absolute only Perception, And that is gonna lead to the end of us. Mark my word.
Yes, I can understand where you're coming from. Whitout moral values, but only filled whit for example greediness, people will eventually kill each other and end this civilization. It's just that I don't believe that people could have a "good" and "pure" moral values ONLY by the Bible, or ONLY by some other authority. People can (and should) form their own moral values. If somebody comes to you and tells you about his moral values, and says that thousands of people think like he does (and that there's hundreds of books about that), that don't still make it right. People should rely on their own mind and heart, and not follow others. Especially in the matters of moral.

And if there should be some ONE moral AUTHORITY over everything else, then let that be buddhism :) They don't even eat meat, or harm any people at all. And they're not after matterials.

P.S. I'm not buddhist :) That was just an example.

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Re: North Korea

Unread post by BlaKK » January 31st, 2005, 5:04 pm

Yes Lizard, I do too wish there was on set of universal Moral Autorities everyone can abise by Life would be a breeze. But understand Lizard if eveyone abided by thier own Moral values Society would be Doomed. because evil lives in the muthafuchen skin, we were born into Wickedness you feel me. So some guidance some absolute Law is needed you know. But I do agree Lizard People should go thier own, Mind thier Own, pull thier own
you feel me.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 31st, 2005, 5:19 pm

Alright, now I see that I didn't quite understand you at first. But now I think I do. Yes, I agree that there sould be some universal moral values for everybody to follow and liveby. I think that UN would be a good organization for that. I say "would", because I think UN don't work as good as they should be. That UN machine has got too big to handle. Also International Criminal Court would be good for that. And again "would", because even ICC don't work properly at this moment. I really don't want to always blame USA, but a one big loss for ICC is that USA hasn't participated on that. That is why many countries think that ICC has no right to judge them either, if ICC can't judge USA.

But then again, the biggest difficulties whit these both (UN & ICC) is that it's extremely hard to go tell someone that he shouldn't live like his/hers people has lived for thousands of years. He/she thinks that it's his/hers way of living, and no one else has nothing to say about that. Different cultures makes is very difficult to create some universal moral values. But I'm whit you here: I also hope that people could live in peace and respect each others under some universal moral values. I just think that christian moral values are not the ones that people should go by. And that you can't take the universal moral values from any religion, because not all people share the same religion. Trying to force them under the one religion (whatever it may be) would create a lot of hate.

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