North Korea

[LinozMami]

last night I started watching a TV show about North Korea. These journalist snuck into North Korea to expose what the leaders and military all are denying. First of all, there is a major food shortage and people are dying and resorting to cannabilism, murdering people for food so their kids wont die.
The leaders and military take whatever food the US donates and saving it for themselves. And a small amount of the food is sold to people who have to save up forever to buy a cupfull. I saw undercover footage of the market place, tons of kids my own sons age where walking around in shredded clothes, dirty shoes with holes, sometimes no shoes, just staring at the food that is suppossed to go to them, and that is suppossed to be FREE. Many kids parents had starved to death, and I saw footage of a lil boy on the floor like an animal, eating scraps that were dropping from this guys table. I saw a little girl a filthy plastic bag in one hand, a drinking cup in the other, getting water to drink from a gutter, with garbage all around. Her parents were dead and her life was so traumatic she did not talk at all or even respond to the reporters. She had this dead look in her eyes it broke my heart. Like she had no soul.
What pisses me off is the government is forcing all the farmers to stop growing food, instead they are forced to grow opium, to be made into heroin. One farmer was interviewed, he was risking his life, just to break the silence about what he was forced to do. The leaders and military live off the drug sales, while the citizens die. I saw footage of huge opium fields. Kids and adults are shot dead daily when they try to escape by crossing the border to China. Some kids make it to china, then make a little money, then they actually cross the border again, risking their little lives to get food or money to their loved ones. And those who stand up and protest whats going on---Them and their whole famalies are thrown into camps, where kids are tied up to a tree and stoned to death. The guards force other children to be the stone throwers. So that means kids are being forced to kill friends, brothers, sisters, its sick. One little boy said he was throwing stones until all the lil boys skin was peeled off his face, he shook violently for awhile then hung his head and died.
Women are raped and if they get pregnant, they are tied to a tree and their belly is mutilated, they kill the baby, and leave the women to die on the ground.
Ive never felt so full of compassion and sorrow ever! I dont know how this could go on in this day and age. I will never again complain about having to eat the same thing over and over. At least my famalies alive, has food and were safe in America. I thank God my son isnt one of those poor precious lil kids starving over there. Man I wanted to go swoop all them kids up and cook them something, but thats impossible. I am so thankful for all I do have. I feel so stupid for my dumb complaints.

[Kemosave]

Yes it's a real wasteland there. http://www.freenorthkorea.net/

Check out this article:

Many news analysts have recently observed that North Korea is not so much a "Communist state" as it is a personality-driven "cult." A dictatorial dynasty rules the country, which was first established by the current leader's father. Noted psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, once studied the methodology of "education" used by North Korea within prisoner of war camps in the fifties. His conclusions were published within his seminal book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.

What can easily be seen from Lifton's writings is that North Korea has a long-standing and well-established expertise in what is commonly called "brainwashing." Its absolute authoritarian leader, Kim Jong Il, known now as "Great Leader," controls all the media, military and environment. Lifton calls this "milieu control," which is the foundation for a thought reform program. Something called "Juche," is the detailed dogma or ideology used to control the North Korean population, reports the Christian Science Monitor. Lifton calls such an ideology the "Sacred Science" of Totalism.

Like many cult leaders Kim has exploited his followers, it is estimated that he holds $2 to $4 billion dollars in European banks. He also lives lavishly, while most of his people go hungry. During the 1990s mass starvation took the lives of 2 million in North Korea. But North Koreans are still officially called "Kim Il Sung's people." Sounds a bit like "Sci-fi cult" leader "Rael" calling his followers the "Raelians" or David Koresh and his "Davidians" doesn't it?

This is what Lifton calls "Doctrine over Person." That is, when the group uses its dogma to supercede and blur individual identity. Kim's regime is certainly a closed system not easily permeated by outside ideas; the country can be seen as little more than a giant cult compound.
One expert says that North Korea has "carefully constructed illusions." And such cultic "illusions" often whither when subjected to an outside frame of reference and the free exchange of ideas.

According to recent reports there is now some critical "whispering" about the "Great Leader" within his nation compound. Perhaps "Kim Il Sung's people" are beginning to consider the possibility of a future without a cult leader. Lifton has written extensively about cults and "cult formation." He lists three primary hallmarks that define a destructive cult:

1. A charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;

2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;

3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Sounds just like North Korea.

[LinozMami]

Wow! Those poor people. I was talking to my dad about this article. He says America doesnt really interfere because Jong would be quick to just start setting off nuclear war with whoever dare stand up to him. I hope he gets assasinated big time.

[Interested]

Damn... My heart broke reading that. Bush attacked Iraq because of false info and what he(Saddam) did 13 years ago. But when the North Korean president buys nuclear material and tell the whole world he not stopping, bush dosen't say a damn thing. We should have attacked North Korea and free those poor innocent kids. They have no future and only the rich survive. Man Fuck that!!!!

[Panik]

this is no secret, and the major reason we (americans)should have no fear of them, and not bow down to any of their threats. All we have to do is stop sending them food, and the whole country would die off in a couple years. They need us. Same thing with vietnam. Both of these countries had millions die in the last decade from starvation. It is as bad or worse there than in Any other place in the world, but their governments try to shield this from the world because it would bring into question the intelligence of a communistic goverment.

[Panik]

[quote="Interested"]Damn... My heart broke reading that. Bush attacked Iraq because of false info and what he(Saddam) did 13 years ago. But when the North Korean president buys nuclear material and tell the whole world he not stopping, bush dosen't say a damn thing. We should have attacked North Korea and free those poor innocent kids. They have no future and only the rich survive. Man fu-- that!!!![/quote]

We are technically still at war with Nrth Korea. Why we don't fight? Ask the republicans. There is more profit in a cold war with the commies. Clinton wanted a couple times to attack Korea, and he got heavy flak from the same folks that attacked Iraq. At one point Korea threatened us with the Nuke shi-, and clinton told them to tear down their reactor or he would go in and bomb the shi- out of it, and they tore it down. They pulled the same threat with Bush, and he just negotioated, and they are still doing it.

[Interested]

I'm just saying, its makes me sick when some fake as wannabe Gansta in High School say i got itbad yah'll don't. They have their moms and dads, they have food on there table and plus thhey buy more shoes than i do. While 9 year kids in Africa holding AK-47's, then North Korean kids eating bread crumbs just to survive another day.

[Kemosave]

I have to agree with you on that Panik. We should have told everyone to stand back and mopped them up before they developed nukes. Sad part is the everyday people are suffering terribly while the narcisstic psychopath who started it all surrounds himself with yes men, pretty women, champaign and cavier.

[North Face]

last night I started watching a TV show about North Korea. These journalist snuck into North Korea to expose what the leaders and military all are denying. First of all, there is a major food shortage and people are dying and resorting to cannabilism, murdering people for food so their kids wont die.
The leaders and military take whatever food the US donates and saving it for themselves. And a small amount of the food is sold to people who have to save up forever to buy a cupfull. I saw undercover footage of the market place, tons of kids my own sons age where walking around in shredded clothes, dirty shoes with holes, sometimes no shoes, just staring at the food that is suppossed to go to them, and that is suppossed to be FREE. Many kids parents had starved to death, and I saw footage of a lil boy on the floor like an animal, eating scraps that were dropping from this guys table. I saw a little girl a filthy plastic bag in one hand, a drinking cup in the other, getting water to drink from a gutter, with garbage all around. Her parents were dead and her life was so traumatic she did not talk at all or even respond to the reporters. She had this dead look in her eyes it broke my heart. Like she had no soul.
What pisses me off is the government is forcing all the farmers to stop growing food, instead they are forced to grow opium, to be made into heroin. One farmer was interviewed, he was risking his life, just to break the silence about what he was forced to do. The leaders and military live off the drug sales, while the citizens die. I saw footage of huge opium fields. Kids and adults are shot dead daily when they try to escape by crossing the border to China. Some kids make it to china, then make a little money, then they actually cross the border again, risking their little lives to get food or money to their loved ones. And those who stand up and protest whats going on---Them and their whole famalies are thrown into camps, where kids are tied up to a tree and stoned to death. The guards force other children to be the stone throwers. So that means kids are being forced to kill friends, brothers, sisters, its sick. One little boy said he was throwing stones until all the lil boys skin was peeled off his face, he shook violently for awhile then hung his head and died.
Women are raped and if they get pregnant, they are tied to a tree and their belly is mutilated, they kill the baby, and leave the women to die on the ground.
Ive never felt so full of compassion and sorrow ever! I dont know how this could go on in this day and age. I will never again complain about having to eat the same thing over and over. At least my famalies alive, has food and were safe in America. I thank God my son isnt one of those poor precious lil kids starving over there. Man I wanted to go swoop all them kids up and cook them something, but thats impossible. I am so thankful for all I do have. I feel so stupid for my dumb complaints.

SAD TO SAY MY CONDOLENCES TO NORTH KOREA. WHAT MIND WOULD CREAT SUCH HATRED AND EVIL ON THIS EARTH WHEN IT SOLVES NOTHING NOTHING JUST LIVES WASTED.

[hitonme]

Lets see. Bush attacked Iraq because of saddam hussein and because Hussein pursued weapons of mass destruction. North Korea has nuclear weapons, over 1 MILLION soldiers on active duty, and dozens of warships. No wonder Bush doesn't want to attack North Korea. Instead of negotiating with the North Korean's unilaterally, the Americans want other countries to be involved with the talks. The same American government who attacked Iraq unilaterally but wont negotiate unilaterally. This tells a lot of the Bush administration. Bush is AFRAID to start a war with North Korea. With 1 million troops on the North Korean side, why would Bush announce a war with the North Koreans? Because he's scared. We have the best military technology in the whole world, the armed forces can take them out but Bush doesn't want it to happen. I say he is scared.

[hitonme]

The documentary was all right. The messed up part was watching the people dressed up or wearing the exact kind of jumpsuit the Jews had on when they were kept at Auchwitz during World War II. It tells you a lot about the Kim Jong II. He's a Stalinist and a Hitlerite.

[Mraka]

so should you poeple who are into it.There are some thousand relatives in south-corea and north coreans outside.They got embassys in the hole world .There is Japan close,Russia and China have a border there so why you talk that silly stuff round here.Go down and get connected to peacetalks and contracts ,by,for example a communist or working party.They do better work than everyone of you can imagine.or go there and make a visit!!
Attack this ,kill that .Stop please.

[Mraka]

s on (read) GULAG habitants.

[BlaKK]

I'm just saying, its makes me sick when some fake as wannabe Gansta in High School say i got itbad yah'll don't. They have their moms and dads, they have food on there table and plus thhey buy more shoes than i do. While 9 year kids in Africa holding AK-47's, then North Korean kids eating bread crumbs just to survive another day.

so true, ups to ya hommie. The shyt people take for granite

[gent11236]

If the people are living like that then it must be fucked up over there

[Mraka]

North Korea wants to go on talking about their nuke programme,since the stop of talks on last september.That is what the national press agency of N.K. ,the KCNA announced after a 4 days meeting with an US delegation (MoP).

[Mraka]

super!!! (TAZ)
Two high rank officials of Noth Korea fled 1997 to South Korea.Kim Dug Honk sit in the bureau of international affairs of the central commite.Drove Mercedes and lived a life, ordinary N.Koreans culdn`t imagine.
Hwang Jang Hop a chief ideologist of Kim Jong Il.
Since then,Kim Dug Honk recieve threats on and on.Daggers and poison is send to him,as a warning.
In 97` february they were on a visit in china and took a cab to the S.Korean embassy.
Hwang Jang Hops family commited suicide,Kim does not know what happened to his family.N.Korea uses to put the hole family in charge ,to the third generation.
Kim says that N.Korea lies about their WMD,and they will continue to do so.
Hwang ,as a creator of Juche(autarky) ,the state-ideologiy,keeps calm ,and is accused of Kim to be to soft in order they both did change the frontier to bring down the N.Korean government.
So after a 4o years friendship between them,they do not talk with each other since two years.
S.Korea is afraid of Kim sharing his knowledge with US government,what could disturb their own sunshine policy.
Therefore both country did huge steps in the past ,to bring poeple, which means disconnected familys in north and south closer to one another
Also Germany opened a Goethe institute in N.Korea.
Many toons were made in N.Korea ,so maybe you watched a one painted from N.Koreans.

[BlaKK]

N. Korea, Chances are they do not even contain Stage 2 nuclear ballistic missles. A stage 2 nuke can hit the center heart of america, with catastrphic results, millions dead. America however overexagerates the threat against Korea. To Pursue its Anit Missle Ballistc Defense program (AMBDS). So Learn to Discearn.

[Mraka]

N.K. lauched a missile over the sea,it overflew Japan and went down in the sea ,east of Japan.
A Japaneese sect was able to produce and spread sarin gas in Tokio subway,long before that missile test.

What the penninsula needs is infact that `sunshine' policy.

[punamusta]

Mraka,

I've been reading your posts here in this board for a while, and you're obviously a very intelligent man. Keep up!

He's a Stalinist and a Hitlerite.

Actually in North Korea there's a communist ideology called Juche. That's their own ideology, and that don't go one on one whit Stalin's ideology. I've studied a lot about North Korea and their style of communism, but it would take too much time from me to write all that down in english, so I won't. But you need to remember that document movies can be used as a propaganda. The director shows you only what he wants to show. I've seen many documentaries about North Korea that has been filled whit lies. North Korea do has their problems, but people tend to exaggerate them, because North Korea is a communist country and therefore they must be evil people.

[Kemosave]

Totalitarianism applied onto a real people is still totalitarianism. The psychopath narcissism he displayed in starving his own people and imprisoning dissenters into horrible Guglag type camps well he lived a corrupt lifestyle (not to mention lying about his nuclear program) would be more of what we had in mind when we used the word evil in relation to North Korea. Torture, death, and lies to keep his people in line (no dissent allowed) and an attempt to create a nuclear weapons. I'm not sure his taste in film or your opinion of North Korean film propaganda was the basis for it.

[hitonme]

Going to war with North Korea is a very bad idea. If the U.S. attacks North Korea, then we are in for some serious trouble. In other words, we might lose alliances to friendly nations. Here's a website that talks about the following if there was a military conflict between North Korea and the United States:

http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/dprkmil.htm

After reading all that, all I gotta say is DAMN!!! Them North Koreans got a lot of firepower.

[hitonme]

Here's another website about North Korea and their military capabilities and how they match up with the U.S. I gotta admit, this website is more biased for the North Koreans than the U.S.

http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/nk-war-han.htm

[punamusta]

Torture, death, and lies to keep his people in line (no dissent allowed) and an attempt to create a nuclear weapons.

I know some people here don't like this, but isn't that all (torturing, corruption, nuclear weapons, etc.) what your government does as well? Whit the difference that you already have a nuclear weapon. Or actually over 12 000 nuclear weapons.. And William Cohen said in 1999 that you don't need much of a reason to use a nuclear weapon. So if you can call North Korea evil, I guess I can call USA evil.. And Israel, too. They also have a nuclear weapon, but nobody's speaking about it. And they also torture people.

The biggest mistake that North Korea has done is that they put so much money into a war weapons. And I could say the same thing about USA as well.. Both countries (USA & North Korea) are in a edge of a bankruptcy because of that.

And that "narcissism" you're referring is a big part of Juche ideology. Instead of bowing down to a flag, people are bowing down to a one leader. Not very different from your country. The key idea behind Juche ideology is a strong leader, not narcissism. The culture in North Korea is so much different than in any western country that it's very difficult for us to understand where they're coming from. People in the western countries tend to think that everything we do is the right way, and everybody who's doing things differently are absolutely wrong. We would like to see every people in the world to bow down to the same values that we are. What we don't understand, we hate. If some countries don't want McDonalds, porn movies and hundreds of different western TV-channels into their culture, we think that they're crazy because they don't want the same things that we want.

And exploitation capitalism isn't that far from Juche communism. Only modes of action are different. And to make it clear, I don't endorse either one. Now that I read what I've written it seems that I'm taking the North Korea's side, but I'm not. I just wanted to speak about these things. Very few things are so black and white that they first seems to be.

[Kemosave]

I know some people here don't like this, but isn't that all (torturing, corruption, nuclear weapons, etc.) what your government does as well?

--> Now you are going off on a false tangent. Democratic (by the people for the people) systems of government in the free world are not totalitarian by definition. Your premise is false. Prove the USA's history involves mass torture, starvation, and murder of its own populace on the level of totalitarian governments including historical Communism. Prove the free world has a history of using nuclear weapons to take over the planet and not just defend themselves against totalitarian governments such as the Communist governments which outlined as their objective to "bury" all freedom loving nations of the world. Keep in mind we are not talking about the spread of freedom and principles of Democracy here to empower peoples but rather you need to prove the results of the real historical Communist methods of purging and forcible takeover followed by mass persecution and gulag systems designed to kill by the millions. Prove that corruption exists on the level it does in the former Soviet Union and other totaliran governments (I admit some of the smaller ones did just kill off everyone that engaged in the practice outside of government channels). Your argument will be a thin one unaccepted by the mainstream to say the least.

Whit the difference that you already have a nuclear weapon. Or actually over 12 000 nuclear weapons.. And William Cohen said in 1999 that you don't need much of a reason to use a nuclear weapon. So if you can call North Korea evil, I guess I can call USA evil.. And Israel, too. They also have a nuclear weapon, but nobody's speaking about it. And they also torture people.

---> I don't like nuclear weapons. They cause to much damage. But having them for self defense and to prevent totalitarianism from expanding on freed people nations is acceptable. Prove this torture. I want to hear your argument. If you are talking about a small number of soldiers gone astray during wartime then don't even bother because that is not the same as what Jung's government is doing to it's people. I can't imagine you as being a friend of theirs.. you know the common people of North Korea. You sound more like you are disgruntled that your not running things into the ground next to Jung himself from what I can read.

The biggest mistake that North Korea has done is that they put so much money into a war weapons. And I could say the same thing about USA as well.. Both countries (USA & North Korea) are in a edge of a bankruptcy because of that.

---> We have a greater responsibility. If the USA just folder over we would be pillaged and then war would break out between the remaining countries bringing an end to civilization. If North Korea disarmed then they would be turned into a democracy and integrated with South Korea. Too different scenarios. The USA is not on the edge of bankruptcy.

And that "narcissism" you're referring is a big part of Juche ideology. Instead of bowing down to a flag, people are bowing down to a one leader. Not very different from your country.

---> WRONG! You really don't have a clue. People are believing what they choose to believe and voting accordingly. Nobody here is forced on threat of imprisonment and starvation to march for the greater glory of the President as god. You really are far out here.

The key idea behind Juche ideology is a strong leader, not narcissism.

---> Like many such philosophical arguments, your assertion of the Communist "ideal" and what is actually happening in reality are two completely different things. His behavior shows a psychotic narcisst who kills off his own people at an alarming rate. And the only reason that seems to be important to him is it's getting in the way of his desire for the expansion of his own personal power. He would gladly put you in a work camp and use you as a slave until you had no more use than throw you into a shallow ditch if it served his purpose. In fact, that's what he's doing to many of his people as we speak. Have you considered maybe changing your citizenship to North Korean and volunteering to live and work among the common people to learn these truths for yourself?

The culture in North Korea is so much different than in any western country that it's very difficult for us to understand where they're coming from.

--->I've lived in many cultures. Human nature is the same wherever you go.

People in the western countries tend to think that everything we do is the right way, and everybody who's doing things differently are absolutely wrong. We would like to see every people in the world to bow down to the same values that we are. What we don't understand, we hate. If some countries don't want McDonalds, porn movies and hundreds of different western TV-channels into their culture, we think that they're crazy because they don't want the same things that we want.

---> Democratic principles align themselves with the will of the people they govern. You are not proving anything.

And exploitation capitalism isn't that far from Juche communism. Only modes of action are different. And to make it clear, I don't endorse either one. Now that I read what I've written it seems that I'm taking the North Korea's side, but I'm not. I just wanted to speak about these things. Very few things are so black and white that they first seems to be.

--->The results on the populace of a free market system controlled by democratic principles is very different than the result of Juche communism. Juche has little accountability. If tossing away a million people into a forced work programs against their wills seems profitable to him than it is ordered and so done. Now go read the Declaration of Independence again ding a ling.

[anonymousman]

the only thing i dont like about this country (USA) is that we have over 720 military bases all over the world and some in country's where they dont want us there like cuba for example, puerto rico.... etc.. wtf are we doing spending our money invading country's, what are we getting out of it?

[Kemosave]

the only thing i dont like about this country (USA) is that we have over 720 military bases all over the world and some in country's where they dont want us there like cuba for example, puerto rico.... etc.. wtf are we doing spending our money invading country's, what are we getting out of it?

Intelligence and DEFENSE. History shows that isolationism equals mass warfare eventually in a global environment.

[punamusta]

Intelligence and DEFENSE. History shows that isolationism equals mass warfare eventually in a global environment.

Whit that strategy you're defending yourselves from the problems that you've created by having those military bases where they are. Man, you have military bases on a holy muslim lands, but still you don't understand why they hate you.

And to say something of our previous discussion... Here's the link to prove the torturing in Israel: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150021998? (link is from 1998, but they're still doing the same things)
And more about Israel: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/isr-summary-eng

And you should know how much you got homeless, starving and poor people in your country. And how corrupted for example your police forces are. And no western country has ghettos as bad and as large as you have. You can always compare USA to some third world countries and say that we're not that bad, but that don't change nothing. It only gets you a better sleep. Here, learn about your own country: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/usa-summary-eng

And about that nuclear weapon. How you can have a 12 000 nuclear weapons as self defense? Do you really believe that? Could you believe that other countries have nuclear weapons for self defense also? Or are you the only country who can have them for self defense? For example North Korea has stated many times that they are thinking about building a nuclear weapon (not once they have said that they already have that) to defend from USA hostility. So it's like you can "defend" your country, but no one else can, right? You're the good ones, and they're the bad ones.

And do you have any kind of proves of those work/death camps? I've heard some rumours about those, but not even Amnesty can confirm that. Oh, and the main reason that North Korea had that starvation is because at the 90's there were many bad harvests one after one. There were long dry seasons and then again floods, etc. Many African countries share those same problems. If harvest isn't good, people are starving. What if you would go to Africa, too and bomb them too like you would want to do in North Korea. Killing starving people means less starvation, right? Let them eat bullets and bombs instead of bread.

Last year was the best harvest year in North Korea for ages, so things are now slowly getting better. It would help a lot if USA would cancel their embargo on North Korea. The only people suffering from that are the common North Koreans.

"I've lived in many cultures. Human nature is the same wherever you go."

Really? Tell me about the human nature. How it's the same wherever you go? And culture have nothing to do whit it, huh? How about those tribes in Amazonia forest? Or in Africa?

And why you want me to read the Declaration of Independence? What I should learn from that?

[Kemosave]

Whit that strategy you're defending yourselves from the problems that you've created by having those military bases where they are. Man, you have military bases on a holy muslim lands, but still you don't understand why they hate you.

--> Without a strategy just letting everyone go at each other, we'll be sucked eventually anyway just like we were in WWII. Having bases in other places is part of a proactive strategy and in our best interests and the bests interests of our allies in the aggregate. Go take some more history, poly sci, and communication classes. They don't all hate us as you assert and those who choose to hate, hate us anyway enough to come all the way over here and bomb regardless of whether or not we have some bases in their Middle East.

And to say something of our previous discussion... Here's the link to prove the torturing in Israel: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150021998? (link is from 1998, but they're still doing the same things)
And more about Israel: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/isr-summary-eng

---> So the state of Israel may practice some torture on a limited basis and you mean by that America practices torture in the way you originally stated it??? You are way out there now.

And you should know how much you got homeless, starving and poor people in your country. And how corrupted for example your police forces are. And no western country has ghettos as bad and as large as you have. You can always compare USA to some third world countries and say that we're not that bad, but that don't change nothing. It only gets you a better sleep. Here, learn about your own country: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/usa-summary-eng

-->It's a lot less than the third world. The USA is a wealthy nation. You are sputtering nonsense by asserting the USA is a poverty stricken nation. ROFL. Wake up. Most of us who are traveled including the owner of this site see a lot more poverty around the world than in the USA. Mexico has far worse ghettos and poverty than we do as much of Central America. Any respected economist would laugh you out of the room for trying to say otherwise. Your assertion is false. And on a subjective note, I'm an eyewitness because I just got back from there recently so don't lecture me about what you think you know. I know what I saw. And I know the stats. Your link is showing that we are detaining foreign nationals say maybe 600 out of how many millions.. lol. You are bringing false information and drawing wrong conclusions. And I'm curious, where are you from again? Knowing this may help us understand why you believe and assert what is not true.

And about that nuclear weapon. How you can have a 12 000 nuclear weapons as self defense? Do you really believe that? Could you believe that other countries have nuclear weapons for self defense also? Or are you the only country who can have them for self defense? For example North Korea has stated many times that they are thinking about building a nuclear weapon (not once they have said that they already have that) to defend from USA hostility. So it's like you can "defend" your country, but no one else can, right? You're the good ones, and they're the bad ones.

---> You were sleeping when Regan and Putin agreed to drastically cut our nuclear stockpiles? I understand we are on track. Again, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. And this constant attempt of yours to compare North Korea's nuclear program to maintain the status quo of totalitariasm in their country with the USA's program of protecting the free world is ridiculous. You are ignorant. Go study history some more. You are not worth even debating.

And do you have any kind of proves of those work/death camps? I've heard some rumours about those, but not even Amnesty can confirm that. Oh, and the main reason that North Korea had that starvation is because at the 90's there were many bad harvests one after one. There were long dry seasons and then again floods, etc. Many African countries share those same problems. If harvest isn't good, people are starving. What if you would go to Africa, too and bomb them too like you would want to do in North Korea. Killing starving people means less starvation, right? Let them eat bullets and bombs instead of bread.

---> Absolutely, lots of media footage including satellite pictures of the horrible camps, personal testimonies from defectors, etc.. everything you need. It's all there. And stop being an idiot saying dumb things. Africa has nothing to do with this discussion and I don't know an African country building nuclear warheads for sale to the highest bidder. What kind of Idiotic statement is that? We sent them food numbskull (both places) and in North Koreas case they chose to spend it on a nuclear warhead program in direct violation of written agreements not too. Again where were you? You don't nothing. I'm probably not going to waste too much more of my time with you.

Last year was the best harvest year in North Korea for ages, so things are now slowly getting better. It would help a lot if USA would cancel their embargo on North Korea. The only people suffering from that are the common North Koreans.

---> They suffer from more than stretched bellys. They don't have truth nor freedom. You love to deny them the freedom of choice don't you?

"I've lived in many cultures. Human nature is the same wherever you go."

Really? Tell me about the human nature. How it's the same wherever you go? And culture have nothing to do whit it, huh? How about those tribes in Amazonia forest? Or in Africa?

---> Yes, and someday you may learn that basic human nature is the same in all cultures. Only the cultures are different.

And why you want me to read the Declaration of Independence? What I should learn from that?

--> Go read it and think about it. The answer should come to you eventually.

[punamusta]

I'm probably not going to waste too much more of my time with you.

That's what I thought at the very beginning. I'm wasting my time whit you. You're missing all the basic knowledge of these matters, so it's impossible to discuss whit you. And you're too quick to mangle up my words and tell me what I have said although I haven't. Way to go, cowboy.

[Kemosave]

I'm probably not going to waste too much more of my time with you.

That's what I thought at the very beginning. I'm wasting my time whit you. You're missing all the basic knowledge of these matters, so it's impossible to discuss whit you. And you're too quick to mangle up my words and tell me what I have said although I haven't. Way to go, cowboy.

Haha! I've rarely ran into someone with such weak evidence and such strong false assertions. I would have expected more from you but apparently, at this time, it is not there for you to give. You are not competent, in my or the intellectuals I have as my friends, to even be discussing these matters. "Mangling up" your argument is something you (never I) do when you open your mouth. I hope you learn truth and grow from it. You're not there now. Cowboys? You as a foreigner who knows nothing about them appeals to them to support your false preposition? Geesh, get a life loser.

P.S. For all the real cowboys that may be out there I apologize on this misguided (apparent?) foreigner's disrespect toward you.

[punamusta]

Here you go, Kemosave. Here's in a "nutshell" what I've stated during this conversation:

1. I do not like the Juche ideology, I thinks it's too totalitarian. But I don't like the exploitation capitalism, either. In your books that's makes me a freedom/democracy hater. I disagree whit that. I do like freedom like every other person. Your country just isn't any kind of a "model student" in that case. Especially not after the WTC attacks. All that BS about Patriotic Act, etc. That big freedom thing you got there is every day more and more just an illusion. Go travel around and you'll see many countries whit more real freedom than you have.

2. North Korea do have their problems, but keeping them under the embargo, considering the whole nation evil, making false contracts whit them, and threathning them whit military actions don't help that a bit. That just makes them to hate you. I also stated that people tend to exaggerate those problems, because North Korea is a closed country whit a communist system. Also I said that in countries which are relatively poor and very self-sufficiency, the annual harvests play a big role in the food matter. If the harvests are bad year after year, they run out of food. And that's what happened in North Korea in the 90's.

3. North Korea has never stated that they would have a nuclear weapon. I'm pretty sure that they keep that nuclear weapon option only to keep you out of their country. Oh, and by the way, Israel has a nuclear weapon, and they're in a war whit Palestinians, but you're not worried at all about their nukes. That's because in your books Israel is the good guys. They're killing masses of innocent Palestinians, destroying their homes, stealing their land, launching missiles to Libanon, but still - they are the good guys.

4. USA has something like 12 000 nuclear weapons. You should check the stats if you don't believe that. Both Russia and USA has lowered the amounts of their nukes, but very, very slowly. Every START contract that has been made has also been broken. Both countries still have more than 5000 nuclear weapons ready to be launch in less than 30 minutes. The reason why I spoke about these is that I think it's extremely hypocrite to tell other countries that they can't build up their nuclear weapons, while USA has over 10 000 nukes and has stated many times that they are ready to use them even in preventive strikes. Plus there has been numerous cases where the people who are responsible of your nuclear program has found out to be mentally ill, or alcoholist, or using different drugs. That you can read from the New England Medicine Journal (4/1998). And now you're even planning to build "mini-nukes". That's really not very smart. Here's the link to that: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 50,00.html

5. There might be a big scale torturing in North Korea. I say might, because I haven't seen any kinds of proves about that. If you can offer me some proves, then I believe you. Satellite pictures don't tell nothing. If I would own a satellite, I could take a picture from your house and say that you got a gun factory there whitout any proves at all. But after all, if that makes that whole country evil, then Israel is evil also. In Israel the government allows the torturing. Saudi Arabia shares the same problems (even much severe), but they are one of the biggest friends of your government despite of the fact that almost every one of them that attacked WTC where from Saudi Arabia. And notice that I never stated that USA is torturing their own people. Although I'm pretty sure that your police forces do batter up and ill-treat people in the streets and in the police stations. Same case whit your prisons. And that's what Amnesty International has stated also. If you would have read that link I've gave you, you would know that. They talked about a whole prisons where prison guards torture the prisoners either mentaly or physicaly. I have even seen few documentaries here in Finland about those prisons where they treated the prisoners like dogs. This all I said, because again I think it's kinda hypocrite to just sit quiet and allow your fellow countries (or should I say business partners) to torture people, but when it comes to the nations that don't do business whit you, you're quick to condemn them and want to bomb them dead as soon as possible. Here, read this: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20040314.htm

6. Then I stated that you do have some problems there that are mostly common only for the development countries. I never said that USA is in a same level that those countries are. I said that so you would understand that you really do have some severe problems in your own country as well, and you should put all your war money into those problems. Your government is bullshitting you and you don't even care. You're paying (taxes) your government to kill innocent people in many parts of the world, but don't wanna help your own people. Remember, 1 billion dollars is spend in Iraq per day. That's 1 billion dollars away from your own people. Each and every day. Check this: http://costofwar.com/

7. I said that as people in the North Korea are bowing down to their leader, you're bowing down to your flag. You can't go nowhere in your country whitout seeing USA flag hanging in almost every corner and shop. That I've seen from numerous documentaries, plus everyone I know that has been in your country have told me that. I don't think there's a much of a difference if your bowing down to a flag or a face. That's equally stupid. I'm sure you'll see the big different in that, but that's only because you're american and have grown into that.

8. I've used Finland as an example many times, because I thought that that would make you feel that I'm not blaming USA about everything. Plus because I'm Finnish (and very critical Finnish, I might add), I know how the things go here and what people thinks here.

9. I talked about the cultural differences, because culture is usually the backbone of the nation. If you don't understand the culture, it's very difficult to understand the people in it. And the culture in North Korea is very different than in USA. They're not spending their days running after the money or a fame. Their basic values are completely different than yours. Same thing in Afganistan. You're army tried to buy the tribes there to work whit them, but they just toke the money, but didn't do nothing for you. Many representatives of your army has said that you didn't quite understand how different their values were compared to yours. For them money isn't worth of a much. The respect and old traditions are everything.

10. Then the bankrupcty. USA's state-depth is HUGE! Many ecomomist (even americans) have stated that 10-15 years more whit your ecomic programs, and you're in a bankrupcty. That's no secret. Go check the stats if you don't believe it. Your depth is growing day after day. You were slowly going into a better direction during the Clinton's era (no matter what Bush's own economist say), but now Bush is fucking up your country's economy. He's putting huge amounts of money to robbing other countries like he's doing in Iraq. That's his strategy.

11. I am not hating you or your country, but I'm hating Bush and all his partners whit good reasons. You got your own way of living there, and that's fine. Just don't think that the rest of the world would like to live like you. You know that you would be angry and ready to fight if some nation would march into your country and tell you how to live your life. It's the same thing whit the countries you have marched in. Oh yeah, and actually if every nation in the world would be living like you, that would deplete all the natural sources of Earth pretty damn fast. Earth can't handle that much of consuming. Even today you're using almost twice as much oil per capita than any other nation. Same thing whit the electricity. Plus you're polluting the Earth over twice as much per capita than any other nation. World cannot afford every people to live like you.

Now when all this is said, everything else you have said that I've said is in your own mind. You should check your head before putting words into my mouth.

And last, I'd like to know if you're really a supporter of Bush policy? Because if you really do believe all of his lies, then I'm really wasting my time here, because you're living in some la-la land, my friend. And remember that most of the people outside of your country are thinking exactly like me. Very few people do like Bush and his policy. Don't believe it? Well, just check the links and stats that I've gave you earlier. You're really not that intellectual that you like to think you are. You're making a lot of noise about your travelling and about your intellectual friends, but if you really would be that intelligent you wouldn't have to make such a noise about it. For me you're just some kid who likes to talk, but not think.

And as for continueing this conversation: I don't see any reasons for that.

This:

And why you want me to read the Declaration of Independence? What I should learn from that?

--> Go read it and think about it. The answer should come to you eventually.


...pretty much sums you up. You're just a one misguided sheep.