FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

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Kemosave
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Unread post by Kemosave » January 24th, 2005, 8:17 pm

Could you give me a couple of examples..? Just wondering, because 65%-80% (depends on what study you're reading) of the people in the world says that USA is the biggest threat to the world peace. A lot of times people are asking you to repair the damages you've done, but that's different from begging help. You could help a lot of people, but not whit guns and bombs. Just imagine how much good you could have done whit that money you're putting into weapons. For example in Iraq you're spending 1 billion dollars per day. You should start to drop food and water on people, not bombs. Then the world would love you and nobody would have any reason to try to kill you. Now you're just spreading hate. And someday it will come back at you.

--> I will need your citations. I disagree that 65% to 80-% of all the people in the world say the USA is the biggest threat to world peace. I am calling you out. Cite your source so educated intellectuals may respond to them. Don't just make false assertions. Now about your example, we are spending a lot of money in Iraq on much more than people and bombs as you have suggested. Whether or not we are right to remain there at this time your assertion is false. We spend much of that on infrastructure, food, rebuilding the water system, economy, etc.. and the news you are getting into your spot aside, most of Iraq is peaceful at this time and grateful for the improvements. Bring your sources, citations, and proof for qualification for all of us to examine.

Not true. For example before the war in Iraq people in Finland were mostly in the middle ground. People didn't care so much about your country that they would made up their opinion about USA. After your government attacked Iraq, it changed. And I'm pretty sure it changed in all over the world. Now it's like you said: it's a love/hate relationship. And most of the people everywhere in the worls hates your government. Some even hates your country and everything that it stands for, plus they hate all americans. I don't think it's a right way, but I can understand why they hate all american. A funny thing is that in Europe the people who are loving your president, are usually some rednecks or the wealthiest people of their countries.

---> Now you don't go racist on us (thereby immediately dissolving all of your "moral" arguments). Finland is a spot on the map of world history. Let's talk about the aggregate fool. Any of us can bring the tiniest minority argument to support our views. Geesh. And false information that benefits a new power structure (such as the EU) I would expect to pick up but you have not acknowleged the recent French and German (as examples) reversals of their positions. They don't all "hate americian" as you assert. You are a false to suggest that and it, more than anything, shows your predjudice. I assert on much less emperical evidence for your position based on your position that you are a predjudiced hater of Democracy in the world. And that is the real issue of your post.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by Anonymous20 » January 25th, 2005, 3:45 am

Kemosave wrote:
TheWatcher wrote:Yeah whatever man..
Are you saying that you really believe these assertions you are signing based on the evidence you are bringing???

I mean, I kind of thought you were joking. Are you serious?

I'll treat it serious if you are serious I just thought you were joking.
yes i am serious..
i thought i'd let yall discuss.. i'd much rather take this discussion in some other lauguage, lol.
do u know the reason behund all these bombings?

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by punamusta » January 25th, 2005, 10:30 am

You know, Kemosave, I really wouldn't like to discuss whit you, because you're so quick to call others fools etc. But still, here we go...
Kemosave wrote:I will need your citations. I disagree that 65% to 80-% of all the people in the world say the USA is the biggest threat to world peace. I am calling you out. Cite your source so educated intellectuals may respond to them. Don't just make false assertions.
I tried to find those stats from the Internet that were speaking about 80%, but couldn't find. I have seen those stats from Finnish news, but don't know where to look those. Usually those studies are made the way that people from 15-40 countries are asked that what is the biggest threat to the world peace, and except Poland, Israel, and few other countries people are naming the USA to be the biggest threat to world peace. I'm sure that you who speaks english as your native language can look for those stats from Internet. After all, there's much more sites in english than in finnish. Atleast, check the links above. Especially this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 75,00.html

But I found stats saying that 60% of British thinks that USA is a threat to the world peace. Even the mayor of London has stated that many times. And stats about British thinking that Bush is a bigger threat than Saddam Hussein. Also Nelson Mandela has stated that USA is a threat to the world peace. A lot of people think that way. You just better accept it. Also Israel is seen as a big threat to the world peace. Percents changes depending of when (and how) you're asking the question. Now that your government announced that you'll be staying in Iraq for atleast two more years, I'm sure the percentage is only rising. It's kinda interesting how differently americans are seeing the threats of the world peace.. In every stat I've seen Israel and USA are named to be the two biggest threats to the world peace.

You might wanna read these links: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0114-02.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 75,00.html
http://www.eurolegal.org/useur/bushinaug.htm
http://www.ilaam.net/Opinions/USAThreat.html
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_835022.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 17,00.html
Now about your example, we are spending a lot of money in Iraq on much more than people and bombs as you have suggested. Whether or not we are right to remain there at this time your assertion is false. We spend much of that on infrastructure, food, rebuilding the water system, economy, etc.. and the news you are getting into your spot aside, most of Iraq is peaceful at this time and grateful for the improvements. Bring your sources, citations, and proof for qualification for all of us to examine.
You didn't quite understand what I ment whit my example. I didn't mean that you should bomb some countries and then give them a little bit food for sorrow or build up a few houses you've destroyed earlier. No. Read again what I wrote.
Now you don't go racist on us (thereby immediately dissolving all of your "moral" arguments).


Racist on you? Are you serious? Man, you're funny.
Finland is a spot on the map of world history. Let's talk about the aggregate fool. Any of us can bring the tiniest minority argument to support our views. Geesh.
What was those tiniest minorities that I was speaking about according to you?
And false information that benefits a new power structure (such as the EU) I would expect to pick up but you have not acknowleged the recent French and German (as examples) reversals of their positions.
I really don't care about the EU. I have been against it ever since Finland joined it. EU is only for Germany, French, Great Britain and Italy. Rest of the countries are just paying them, but getting nothing from them. And because of the EU, Finland is now turning into a exploitation capitalism. EU is following USA. EU wants everything that USA has. I don't see big differences between what USA is now, and what EU is going for. Same shit. Only different toilet.
They [Germany & French] don't all "hate americian" as you assert. You are a false to suggest that and it, more than anything, shows your predjudice.
Maybe the leaders of their countries don't say they hate americans, but if you go to ask it from the regular people, the answer is very different. I don't say (and didn't say) that they hate all the americans, but they sure do hate the way your government is working. You're just so quick to put words in my mouth. I have only said that SOME people do hate all american and americans, and I even said that it's wrong. Most of the people just hates your government.
I assert on much less emperical evidence for your position based on your position that you are a predjudiced hater of Democracy in the world. And that is the real issue of your post.
Now what should I say to this? Besides that you're wrong from the start to the end.. I don't hate democracy. Never said I would. You're just putting words to my mouth, but I guess that's your way to discuss.

I would have a lot more to say, but this is taking way too much time to write all this in english. I might come back and add some stuff, but I'm not sure.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by punamusta » January 25th, 2005, 10:35 am

Kodiak,

I'll answer you later. Now I got some other things to do :)

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Unread post by Common Sense » January 25th, 2005, 12:05 pm

Common Sense wrote:America must help a lot of bad people, because the world is always knocking on Uncle Sam's door for a favor.
lizard wrote:Could you give me a couple of examples..?.
Sure. I don't have all of the stat's but here are some aid fiqures that relate to global terrorism. I'm not sayin' that this plan is the best, but this is the plan the US government is using right now.

American Foreign Aid

Why does the United States give aid to poor countries?

While President Bush has said that “poverty doesn’t cause terrorism,” many experts argue that poor countries with nondemocratic governments could become havens for terrorism.

How much aid does the United States give?

President Bush’s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.

How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?

The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world’s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.

Do Americans understand how much of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid?

No. A 2001 poll sponsored by the University of Maryland showed that most Americans think the United States spends about 24 percent of its annual budget on foreign aid—more than 24 times the actual figure.

Do Americans support increasing foreign aid?

Yes. A University of Maryland poll, which was conducted in July 2002, indicated that 81 percent of Americans support increasing foreign-aid spending to fight terrorism. According to the poll’s findings, the typical American would like to spend $1 on foreign aid for every $3 spent on defense; the real ratio in the proposed budget for fiscal year 2003 is $1 on aid for every $19 spent on defense.

Did America used to give more aid?

Yes. During the Cold War, Washington considered foreign aid a critical tool for containing communism. Under the Reagan administration, for instance, U.S. economic and military aid reached $27 billion per year—almost three times the current level. But with the end of the Soviet threat and growing congressional misgivings about foreign aid, U.S. spending dropped dramatically.

How is U.S. aid administered?

The United States gives assistance directly to states through grants and loans and indirectly through funding to international organizations such as the United Nations, the World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The Bush administration has given more preference to grants than to loans, arguing that giving loans to poor states that can’t repay them simply drives them deeper into debt.

Which countries receive the most aid?

The top recipient is Israel, which gets about $2.1 billion per year in military aid—used mostly to purchase U.S.-made weapons—and $600 million per year in economic support. The second-largest recipient, Egypt, annually gets around $1.3 billion in military aid and about $615 million for social programs. (In August 2002, the Bush administration said Egypt’s human rights record was so poor that Washington couldn’t support Egyptian requests for additional aid—the first time the United States had linked Egypt’s aid package to its human rights practices.) The embattled government of Colombia, the third-largest beneficiary, gets around $540 million per year to help battle the drug trade and crack down on local terrorist groups. Jordan, a leading U.S. friend in the Arab world, is slated to get about $250 million in economic support and $198 million in military financing in FY 2003—a sharp increase from 2002, due to its increasingly pivotal role in the Middle East. Peru, Ukraine, and Russia each receive about $200 million annually in economic and military aid.

Is the U.S. government giving more aid to Afghanistan and its neighbors?

Yes. Since September 11, the United States has increased relief and development aid to several states in the region to help them absorb the economic shocks of war and reward them for providing logistical support in the U.S.-led war on terrorism. Yes. Since September 11, the United States has increased relief and development aid to several states in the region to help them absorb the economic shocks of war and reward them for providing logistical support in the U.S.-led war on terrorism.

Pakistan, which became a key ally in the war in Afghanistan, will get $200 million in economic aid and $50 million in military support. (In the fall of 2001, the United States lifted a ban on aid to Pakistan imposed when General Pervez Musharraf seized power in a 1999 coup.) The United States also arranged for the World Bank and the IMF to forgive about $1 billion in loans to Pakistan.
Turkey, which has provided military support and helped track terrorist financial networks, will receive $17.5 million in military aid. Previously, it had not been receiving any military aid.
Central Asian states that have provided air bases for U.S. operations will also receive military aid: Uzbekistan will get $43 million, and Kyrgyzstan will get $4 million.
Postwar Afghanistan, which is struggling to recover after years of Taliban rule and the U.S.-led war that toppled the Taliban, has already received almost $450 million in humanitarian and reconstruction aid and will also get $140 million in economic and military assistance.

Is the United States increasing aid to weak states that could become havens for terrorism?

In some cases, yes. In recent years, the United States has shied away from supporting struggling states, due to disinterest, the lack of a strategic plan, and because aid can sometimes disappear into the personal coffers of corrupt dictators. However, in March 2002, President Bush surprised foreign-aid supporters by pledging to increase U.S. assistance by 50 percent over the next three years—the biggest rise in 45 years, resulting in a $15-billion increase by 2006. Some traditionally antiaid Republicans in Congress are also supporting an increase in foreign assistance; North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms credits Bono, the lead singer of the rock band U2 and a longtime aid advocate, with his conversion. The Bush administration has also changed its aid policy for some states where terrorist networks are known to operate, such as Colombia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Yemen. In July 2002, Congress approved a proposal to let Colombia use some of its U.S. antidrug aid for counterterrorism. Indonesia and the Philippines will each receive more than $50 million in funding to combat terrorism, and Yemen will receive $10 million in U.S. economic support (up from $5 million in the previous year), as well as a new $2-million grant for training and equipment to stop infiltration by terrorist groups linked to al-Qaeda.

Could providing more foreign aid help reduce global terrorism?

Some experts say that U.S. generosity might also reduce the anti-Americanism in the Arab and Muslim world that al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups often exploit.

Does U.S. aid play a role in Middle East peacemaking?

Yes. The two largest recipients of American aid, Israel and Egypt, got their assistance packages as rewards for concluding the first Arab-Israeli peace treaty in 1979. U.S. aid to Israel and its neighbors has provided incentives for taking often risky moves toward peace. While Yasir Arafat’s Palestinian Authority—which the Bush administration says is tainted by ties to terrorism—doesn’t receive any direct assistance from the United States, Palestinians benefit from $70 million a year in U.S. aid through U.N. refugee assistance programs, as well as about $75 million administered to water, housing, employment, and democracy programs.

lizard wrote:Just wondering, because 65%-80% (depends on what study you're reading) of the people in the world says that USA is the biggest threat to the world peace.
America has saved world peace several times over. Europeans should know that best. many Europeans may see Americans as conquerer's instead of liberators, but the average Iraqi or Afgani thinks differently.
lizard wrote:A lot of times people are asking you to repair the damages you've done.

such as what? America is not going around trying to start WWIII. Please keep in mind that, that Iraqi business came after Sadaam refused to follow International from the UN. Coalition forces had to enforce that law. Sadaam had a choice for himself and his people, unfortunately he paid a grave price for his arrogance.
lizard wrote:You could help a lot of people, but not whit guns and bombs..
I agree with this. I believe the US should spend more money on social causes rather than military.
lizard wrote:Just imagine how much good you could have done whit that money you're putting into weapons. For example in Iraq you're spending 1 billion dollars per day. You should start to drop food and water on people, not bombs..
Unfortunately..food and water alone is not going to get the Iraqi people back on track for better living.
lizard wrote:Then the world would love you and nobody would have any reason to try to kill you..
Terrorist are always going to want to kill Americans, but the US disrupted their Sado/Masochist lifestyle hiding under the cloth of religon.
lizard wrote:Now you're just spreading hate. And someday it will come back at you..
Americans as a people do not hate anyone. We have a thriving melting pot society that's conducive to great living.
lizard wrote:For example before the war in Iraq people in Finland were mostly in the middle ground. People didn't care so much about your country that they would made up their opinion about USA..
I find that hard to believe. If that were the case Finnish people wouldn't be so emotional about American politics and decisions.

lizard wrote:After your government attacked Iraq, it changed. And I'm pretty sure it changed in all over the world. Now it's like you said: it's a love/hate relationship. And most of the people everywhere in the worls hates your government. Some even hates your country and everything that it stands for, plus they hate all americans. I don't think it's a right way.
That's okay lizard. Europeans can hate my country and my government. When Europeans start taking more of the responsibility off the Americans then I will care.
lizard wrote:but I can understand why they hate all american..
It's easy to hate someone or a nation that is always in the public eye.
lizard wrote:A funny thing is that in Europe the people who are loving your president, are usually some rednecks or the wealthiest people of their countries..
Maybe they are more open minded and older. Young people of Europe had not had the taste of the "Goosestep" like the older generation. They know what it's like to be under a dictator.
lizard wrote:Oh, and what exactly is american food? Hamburgers? I don't mean that as an insult. Just wondering...
American food is a collection of food from many nations and cultures that have taken root in the United States. Our menu selection is vast. Not only national such as fast foods (hamburgers, fries etc) but regional as well. Eastern cuisine..more traditional somewhat English, Southern..hearty meals rich meals, Southwestern..influenced by the styles of Mexico, Californian/western pacific...seafood, Asian, Latin and etc. American is not boring like many other nations. There is selections beyond selection. Our food is good, it's cheap, and plenty of it. That's why Americans are so fat.
lizard wrote:Oh yeah, a lot of people here stopped buying american products after the war started. Including hamburgers from McDonald's. As far as I'm considered, people shouldn't eat that crap anyway :)
Too much fast food is not good for anybody, not even for Americans, but it does come in handy when you don't feel like cooking.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 25th, 2005, 2:20 pm

Kodiak,

I still have to come back some time to answer you, because now this debate whit Common Sense is taking all my time...
Common Sense wrote:Sure. I don't have all of the stat's but here are some aid fiqures that relate to global terrorism. I'm not sayin' that this plan is the best, but this is the plan the US government is using right now.
Alright, first I though you ment something different whit that "world is always knocking on Uncle Sam's door for a favor". These stats I already know. UN recommends that every nation would give 0,9 (or was it 1,1) of their GNP to development aid. Finland is giving 0,7 and it's far too less. Same whit you. People in the world should feel responsible of every other human being. If some countries are poor and the people there are starving, then it's our responsibility to help them. And I mean really help them, and not just give little bit for them. We in the western world have plenty of everything, others don't have nothing. That's not right at all.
Does U.S. aid play a role in Middle East peacemaking?

Yes. The two largest recipients of American aid, Israel and Egypt, got their assistance packages as rewards for concluding the first Arab-Israeli peace treaty in 1979. U.S. aid to Israel and its neighbors has provided incentives for taking often risky moves toward peace. While Yasir Arafat?s Palestinian Authority?which the Bush administration says is tainted by ties to terrorism?doesn?t receive any direct assistance from the United States, Palestinians benefit from $70 million a year in U.S. aid through U.N. refugee assistance programs, as well as about $75 million administered to water, housing, employment, and democracy programs.
Here, check this: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ - That's a great link about how equally your helping the Middle East.

many Europeans may see Americans as conquerer's instead of liberators, but the average Iraqi or Afgani thinks differently.
Yes, many people around the world sees you as a conquerer and definetly not as a liberator. That's your goverment's own illusion that they're selling to you.

And I do have talked to a lot of Iraqis here in Finland. All of them were very much against the war in Iraq. They hated Saddam, but loved their own people that much that they didn't want you to go over there and kill innocent civilians.
wrote:America is not going around trying to start WWIII.
I'm sure you don't. Nobody would be that stupid that would want to start WWIII. But sadly your actions expesially in the Middle East might start the WWIII.
Please keep in mind that, that Iraqi business came after Sadaam refused to follow International from the UN. Coalition forces had to enforce that law.
Saddam said from the start to the end that Iraq don't have mass destruction weapons, but you didn't want to believe him. Now did you find any of those weapons? Or was he speaking the truth? He also was many times ready to discuss about that matter whit Bush, but Bush didn't want to talk.
Unfortunately..food and water alone is not going to get the Iraqi people back on track for better living.
But destroying the country's whole infrastucture and killing 100 000 Iraqis will..?
Terrorist are always going to want to kill Americans, but the US disrupted their Sado/Masochist lifestyle hiding under the cloth of religon.
That's pure BS.
Americans as a people do not hate anyone. We have a thriving melting pot society that's conducive to great living.
Even people here on this board have stated that USA is an extremely racist country that was founded on rasicm. Your melting pot ain't working.
I find that hard to believe. If that were the case Finnish people wouldn't be so emotional about American politics and decisions.
Well, that's the truth. Every people in the world gets emotional when they see masses of innocent people getting killed over lies and greediness.

That's okay lizard. Europeans can hate my country and my government.
Not all of the Europeans hates you or your country. Not even all of the South Americans. Or Asians. Or Africans.
It's easy to hate someone or a nation that is always in the public eye.
That's true. But it's _extremely_ easy when that country gives a reason after reason to start (and continue) hating.
Our food is good, it's cheap, and plenty of it.
For you it's good, but how can you say anything about others behalf?
Too much fast food is not good for anybody, not even for Americans, but it does come in handy when you don't feel like cooking.
Maybe. I still like to eat for example fruits before eating some fast food. And fruits are even cheaper than any fast food :) And more healthier.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 25th, 2005, 2:58 pm

I disagree with the statement you said, about terrorists wanting to kill americans and you said BS. They will always want to kill americans because we accept things like homosexuals, christians, ect ect. That is something that these terrorists can not stand with their extreme ideas. I mentioned i spoke with that lady from Egypt she made the middle east sound VERY conservative as far as that sort of thing.

I have to agree also that terrorists do hide behind a religion. In my opinion a terrorist and a muslim are EXTREMELY different. I have a muslim family living across the street from me and we have talked a little bit but nothing in depth really. His family are the most quiet nice people you could ever want to live near. I asked him if he had felt the pain of others treating like crap because of the terrorists actions since he was muslim he said yes there were a few times ignorant people said something to him but he also said that the difference between a true muslim and these phoney terrorists are night and day.

About america being racist. Yes your correct there are some here that are racists but if our melting pot isnt working then why are we definatly a world power? Something must be working right. We have some that are racist but we have also progressed leaps and bounds. Before they had different bathrooms water fountains ect ect. Now we are starting to come together more and more and you notice racist talk is frowned on more and more.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by punamusta » January 25th, 2005, 3:16 pm

kodiak wrote:I disagree with the statement you said, about terrorists wanting to kill americans and you said BS. They will always want to kill americans because we accept things like homosexuals, christians, ect ect.
Hmm.. Then why they don't want to kill Finnish people also? Or Swedish? Or French? Or just about every western people. Could the reason behind the hate towards USA be those hundreds of military bases you have all over the world, and on holy muslim lands for example. Or could the reason be that that you're helping and arming Israel to fight against Palestinians and other arabs?
In my opinion a terrorist and a muslim are EXTREMELY different.
You're right. Islam itself means "peace" in english. But those "terrorists" can be muslims as well. They're just one angry, frustrated muslims. Just like the KKK and the christians are different, but still they might believe in same God.
About america being racist. Yes your correct there are some here that are racists but if our melting pot isnt working then why are we definatly a world power? Something must be working right.
Sure. Your army is working right ;) No, seriously. Of course your doing something right. But still you shouldn't try to force the people in other countries to live like you want them to live. If you don't respect others, why would others respect you?
Now we are starting to come together more and more and you notice racist talk is frowned on more and more.
That's great to hear.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 25th, 2005, 3:25 pm

In my opinion terrorists dont want to kill others as much as U.S. is because others dont take a front place approach like the U.S. Kinda like the mentality that you pick the biggest kid in the crowd opposing you and take him down to scare the others maybe? I dont know but i do know there has been many terrorist actions in europe as well. Us also helping israel has alot to do with it also.

this statement :
But still you shouldn't try to force the people in other countries to live like you want them to live.

I entirely agree with.

P.S. I post on another site and to quote all i have to do is hit the quote button in front and in the back of what i'm trying to quote but it doesnt work on here and its annoying me!! =)

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Unread post by Common Sense » January 25th, 2005, 5:53 pm

lizard wrote:Here, check this: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ - That's a great link about how equally your helping the Middle East..
I'm aware of these stats. The Palestinians need a lot of help, but they are going to have to do more to help themselves on a basic level. One is to clean up terrorism from their own back yard.

lizard wrote:Yes, many people around the world sees you as a conquerer and definetly not as a liberator. That's your goverment's own illusion that they're selling to you..
President Hamid Karzai (First democraticly elected) say's differently. He appreciates the help he received
lizard wrote:And I do have talked to a lot of Iraqis here in Finland. All of them were very much against the war in Iraq. They hated Saddam, but loved their own people that much that they didn't want you to go over there and kill innocent civilians..
They all should be in Iraq trying to protect their own country instead of America.

lizard wrote:Saddam said from the start to the end that Iraq don't have mass destruction weapons, but you didn't want to believe him. Now did you find any of those weapons? Or was he speaking the truth? He also was many times ready to discuss about that matter whit Bush, but Bush didn't want to talk..
Well try explaining that to the Kurds and the Iranians. Ex President had 12 years to discuss and negotiate. He did nothing. So he's out. His fault.

lizard wrote:But destroying the country's whole infrastucture and killing 100 000 Iraqis will..?.
America is re building infrastructure better than it was before. Area's destoyed by America because of hunting renagade fighters, are being rebuilt by America. Sadr City the slum, is better now than before it was attack. Schools are being built all over the country. Much more than what Sadaam did.

lizard wrote:Even people here on this board have stated that USA is an extremely racist country that was founded on rasicm. Your melting pot ain't working..
Don't judge America by many on this board. Many on this board are suffering due to their own hand. This melting pot is working and very well for the most part. It's not perfect but it's not horrible.

lizard wrote:Every people in the world gets emotional when they see masses of innocent people getting killed over lies and greediness..
Where was the people of the world when Sadaam basically starved his country, exiled thousands across the globe, murder the most muslims himself than any other person or country, while he lived lavishly in Palaces in the desert.

lizard wrote:Maybe. I still like to eat for example fruits before eating some fast food. And fruits are even cheaper than any fast food :) And more healthier.
I agree with you here.

Te kirjailla englannin kieli erittäin kummuta...:)

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by Kemosave » January 25th, 2005, 6:50 pm

I tried to find those stats from the Internet that were speaking about 80%, but couldn't find. I have seen those stats from Finnish news, but don't know where to look those. Usually those studies are made the way that people from 15-40 countries are asked that what is the biggest threat to the world peace, and except Poland, Israel, and few other countries people are naming the USA to be the biggest threat to world peace. I'm sure that you who speaks english as your native language can look for those stats from Internet. After all, there's much more sites in english than in finnish. Atleast, check the links above. Especially this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 75,00.html

---> First of all, much to your apparent dislike, Americans run America not foreigners. Of course, that is true in your country as well. Shall we hold a fair sampled survey to see who in your country believes a foreign power should run it? I rest that case. Next, your apparent stupidity in appealing to the decisions of a particular administration (and a weakly supported administration at that) as some kind of evidence for repeal of the aggregate of Democratic principles (again I urge you to read and meditate on the Declaration of Independence you Jung lover) is a very short sighted and ridiculous argument. Bush will go, Iraq will return to Iraq, and another President different from him will soon take power (less than four years) and he may change every poll. Go push your manure against Democracy somewhere else.

But I found stats saying that 60% of British thinks that USA is a threat to the world peace. Even the mayor of London has stated that many times. And stats about British thinking that Bush is a bigger threat than Saddam Hussein. Also Nelson Mandela has stated that USA is a threat to the world peace. A lot of people think that way. You just better accept it. Also Israel is seen as a big threat to the world peace. Percents changes depending of when (and how) you're asking the question. Now that your government announced that you'll be staying in Iraq for atleast two more years, I'm sure the percentage is only rising. It's kinda interesting how differently americans are seeing the threats of the world peace.. In every stat I've seen Israel and USA are named to be the two biggest threats to the world peace.

---> Why? Anyone can come out in fear and paranoia asserting all sorts of things that are not true. Big deal. If you want governments to run on a high of media frenzied emotionalism prepare for a much worse world than the stable principled approach we work on today. You really don't know the difference do you? The biggest threat to world peace is ignorance and the spread of false assertions based on false facts supported by skewed information not to mention emotionalism replacing steady historical principles. How the heck do you think WWI came about?

You didn't quite understand what I ment whit my example. I didn't mean that you should bomb some countries and then give them a little bit food for sorrow or build up a few houses you've destroyed earlier. No. Read again what I wrote.

---> I did and you still don't get it. You seem to think we have a responsibility to solve all the world's aid problems but then want rogue state's to have the ability to build and distribute nuclear warheads without interference and also of course any wrong thing in the universe you wish to blame on the US. This is why I call you an imbecile. Because you often talk like one.

Racist on you? Are you serious? Man, you're funny.

---> In your ignorance, you talk like a policital racist hater who apparently is 100% against the US. That is what I referred to. Not a color racist. What is funny about that I don't get.

I really don't care about the EU. I have been against it ever since Finland joined it. EU is only for Germany, French, Great Britain and Italy. Rest of the countries are just paying them, but getting nothing from them. And because of the EU, Finland is now turning into a exploitation capitalism. EU is following USA. EU wants everything that USA has. I don't see big differences between what USA is now, and what EU is going for. Same shit. Only different toilet.

--->EU is competing against the USA. Their currency, for example, is in competition with it. You will eventually take your orders from them. There is nothing now you can do about it. It is too late. The US, whom you hate so much, is based on much more liberal democratic principles. You will in only a while have a much bigger problem in the area of personal liberty than us.

Maybe the leaders of their countries don't say they hate americans, but if you go to ask it from the regular people, the answer is very different. I don't say (and didn't say) that they hate all the americans, but they sure do hate the way your government is working. You're just so quick to put words in my mouth. I have only said that SOME people do hate all american and americans, and I even said that it's wrong. Most of the people just hates your government.

---> You put them there when you open it. The people follow the media which is very liberal and anti US. If the people had a chance to live here and enjoy the money and freedoms we have they would be singing a different tune. You are a brainwashed robot in my opinion of foreign liberal media disinformation. It diverts attention away from the real issue which are the problems in your own country to play the hater against the US. And then of course you all feed on that and you get what you get. Rest assured, your life under totalitarianism would be far different. Most are just sheep who tune into their misinformation and don't have a clue. You are one of them in my opinion.

Now what should I say to this? Besides that you're wrong from the start to the end.. I don't hate democracy. Never said I would. You're just putting words to my mouth, but I guess that's your way to discuss.

--->Your own words align yourself against it in this world.

I would have a lot more to say, but this is taking way too much time to write all this in english. I might come back and add some stuff, but I'm not sure.

---> Unless you have something positive and not negative to add to the discussion don't even bother.
Last edited by Kemosave on January 26th, 2005, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by punamusta » January 26th, 2005, 10:00 am

I have to say that I'm getting kinda bored whit these politics conversations for now. It's really frustrating to write in english when I don't even know the language that well.. Plus it takes a lot of time. But I'll answer you, Common Sense, and then Kodiak.
Common Sense wrote:I'm aware of these stats. The Palestinians need a lot of help, but they are going to have to do more to help themselves on a basic level. One is to clean up terrorism from their own back yard.
I agree that terrorism in Middle East needs to stop. Immediately. But unfortunatelly that's not so easy. Palestinians are feeling like that they are responding to the strikes that Israel is committing. Both sides should stop the violence at the same time and then keep it that way. But it's extremely hard.
They all should be in Iraq trying to protect their own country instead of America.
Well, most of them has their family and jobs here, so... Again, it's not that simple.
Well try explaining that to the Kurds and the Iranians. Ex President had 12 years to discuss and negotiate. He did nothing. So he's out. His fault.
Ok. Lets just say that I see that differently.
America is re building infrastructure better than it was before. Area's destoyed by America because of hunting renagade fighters, are being rebuilt by America. Sadr City the slum, is better now than before it was attack. Schools are being built all over the country. Much more than what Sadaam did.
Again, I have to say that I don't agree. I'm just too lazy to write anything more :)

This melting pot is working and very well for the most part. It's not perfect but it's not horrible.
I'm glad to hear that. I just had a whole different image of that. Now I may think that one again.
Where was the people of the world when Sadaam basically starved his country, exiled thousands across the globe, murder the most muslims himself than any other person or country, while he lived lavishly in Palaces in the desert.
Well, I could ask that where were the people of the world when in Rhuanda over 1 million people were murdered in a very short time. I could give you a lot of exampes like that. Usually the people just don't care until media starts to care.
Te kirjailla englannin kieli erittäin kummuta...:)
Hahahah! What a f**k is that? I can understand that you're saying that my english writing is very strange, but how did you know how to write that in finnish? Man, I don't wanna fight whit you anymore :)

Oh yeah, my english is like this, because I've always sucked in foreign languages. All my friends are speaking english better than me. I don't for example know when to put "in", "on", "at", etc. into the sentences, so I just throw them around randomly, haha.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by punamusta » January 26th, 2005, 10:07 am

kodiak wrote:In my opinion terrorists dont want to kill others as much as U.S. is because others dont take a front place approach like the U.S. Kinda like the mentality that you pick the biggest kid in the crowd opposing you and take him down to scare the others maybe? I dont know but i do know there has been many terrorist actions in europe as well. Us also helping israel has alot to do with it also.
Well, I have to say I disagree whit that picking the biggest -theory, but it's great to see that you also see that connection whit Israel as one of the reasons. After all, that's what Bin Laden is saying in almost every speech of his.

But as far as it goes for me, I think I'm done here whit this topic. It was nice to talk whit you, kodiak!

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 26th, 2005, 12:57 pm

For someone that doesnt speak english well lizard i must say you do very well and i understand your sentences completely.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by Common Sense » January 26th, 2005, 1:41 pm

kodiak wrote:For someone that doesnt speak english well lizard i must say you do very well and i understand your sentences completely.
I was trying to say exactly what you said but in Finnish, I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought ......LOL.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 26th, 2005, 4:26 pm

Hahaha i have no concept of Finnish and would be sure to blunder so i wont even try. Different languages say things differently like my wife speaks in spanish and i ask for a word for word translation and its sorta backwords as far as we say it in english.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 26th, 2005, 6:00 pm

Well, to add a view of different european country (i cant talk for all Germans but...) i d agree with both sides of you.

1. yes there are many people who have become strictly anti american when the Bush administration started the war against Iraq. Its not only (but partially it is) because of the media, but its also because of the facts.
Bush said many things and did something else. He is a great liar. Many politicians are, but that doesnt make it better.

2. I am no american hater. I love too many stuff of that country. But i can also say that about almost every country of the world, because every culture has its riches and ALL of them are equal to me.

3. America did NOT only spread democracy in the world but they also established and defended barbaric regimes (like Sadam Hussein for example) only to bomb them away when it serves the purpose of some administration. Ican give you a list of such regimes.

4. Most of the actions America does are not humanitarian but they follow economic , religious and political purposes (remember that highly decorated american general who said that americans are only in Iraq to fight Islam?<--- well ok he was an idiot, but still)

5. And yes america did a lot of good things to the world but not more or less than many other countries of the world. America does not run the good side and america isnt the holy land or the chosen country or whatever....What Bush is implying very often. I think this arrogance also leads many people to dislike america. And this arrogance is no creation of the media, it is real.

Last but not least, if any other country would be the world power #1 it would be hated on as much as people do on america, cause world powers are already hated on for being a world power (remember the Romans?)

Peace

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 26th, 2005, 7:38 pm

I agree with you on alot of things you said. Politicians definatly say one thing to get the vote and do another haha thats a fact nobody can deny. I also beleive america does alot for economic reasons and shrouds it with humanatarion reaons. Iraq for instance i dont believe the reasons they state as the real reason we went over there. I believe it was based on oil for one and also bush has a grudge agianst Suddam.

I entirely disagree with you in one aspect you said though Sentenza. I do not believe any of the conflicts/wars were due to religion. America excepts all religions even go as far as letting native americans use drugs in religious circumstances.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by DiaBo » January 26th, 2005, 8:33 pm

TheWatcher wrote:Countrys united states of america have bombed after the second world war..


China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60 (plus everytime america tried to kill fidel castro)
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Kambodja 1969-73
Chile 11 sept 1973
Guatemala 1967-69
Granada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador the 1980's
Nicaragua the 1980's
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Irak 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001
Iraq 2003
I didn't even know the US was bombing all these country's if they did these it will go down fo sho.

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by punamusta » January 27th, 2005, 2:39 pm

Sentenza,

I agree what you're saying. Many good points in your post.
Common Sense wrote:
kodiak wrote:For someone that doesnt speak english well lizard i must say you do very well and i understand your sentences completely.
I was trying to say exactly what you said but in Finnish, I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought ......LOL.
Thanks for you both!

Yeah, Common Sense, your Finnish sentence ment that my english writing is strange :) And I know it is :) Just like Kodiak said, different languages say things differently. I put words into the sentences like I would be speaking Finnish, although I know that in English some words should be in different order. And that must make some of my sentences sound kinda funny :)

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Mraka » January 27th, 2005, 3:40 pm

Rumsfeld knew about the gas attack there in Iraq.
He was shaking hands there.Think that they did the attack with american helicopters.
All that didn`t matter for 20 years.
Haliburton is the name of the builder in Iraq.Cheny was chairman off`em. How about evidences.The whole Bush crew was involved in fincial scandals or were chairman in the corporations involved.Saudis bin Laden and Bushes are biggest friends in money and oil.Bushes family has several high positions in government.His father is ex president,and was in CIA.His grandfather was(were) collaborating with Nazi firms.Though every of them seemed to have gone through at least one financial disaster ,they made it somehow.Kerry and Queen of britain are cousines from 9-16 grade,and Bush Kerry are in the Bones.That were Bush ancesstors too.Before anyone got connected to the internet,it was official that many or even most Cia bigasses were at Yale,and guess ;also in Bones.
Musharaf putshed himself to power just before.Bush does not know his name.
Bush shows least competence in everything;{not to mention loosy discipline in National Guard]------(open mic),but gets elected,suddenly and surprising voters rise up like zombies and votes disappear where Bush family and friends have a helping hand.They did lie about WMD and some other stuff,maybe they even faked(CIa) evidences from long before the war (biochemlaboratories Trucks)
So what if a president was an alcoholic and cocain user ?But what about the rest.
Or else, maybe a poor homosexual,black miggit,aids infected,crack addict,of the polish minority could do a better job.Worse, he couldn`t.And remember that YOU are pushing YOUR citizens to kill or die ,only to be able to tell us how great everything is functioning,you force your poeple to hold the front!

Us thinks this or that!Who cares?! Nuke the wales
Go for oil in Alaska.
There is no problem that couldn`t be solved without Ussans.
Usa has nothing,that is better than somewhere else,go on and compare your Statesto third world countrys ,thats always funny.
We got terrorist attacks in France,Sweden,Germany,Spain long before and ongoing ,but you can tell us something about how it has to be dealed with.
Do not forget to blame the United Nations,for the attacks and bombings on the list above.And for the vietnam fake for beginning the war there(cia).
Last edited by Mraka on January 28th, 2005, 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 27th, 2005, 5:12 pm

what the hell are you talking about mraka? I think you need to stick with the conspiracy theories section when talking about the U.S. because about 90% of the crap you say about it and the president are just that. You make me want to stab myself in the eyes everytime i read a post from you.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 27th, 2005, 5:14 pm

But i have to add, that i really really hope, that the non stupid americans will start to oppose the Bush administration and will overthrow them. Since its not right what they are doing.
its really sad that most americans i meet are not able to take criticism cause they always project criticism on their national pride and end up saying things which sound to me like :" we are the country of freedom and justice so there cant be any criminals in our gouvernment".
Fact is that some American presidents remind me of of the Julic-Claudian Dynasty in ancient rome (look it up if you dont know it, its really worth it).
Same applies when talking about guns. I have the feeling that most americans are def when it comes to all of the disadvantages of guns.....
You shouldnt defend horrible mistakes and failures of your foreign policy just because they were committed by americans.
So therefore the 3 biggest disasters in american foreign policy which come spontaneously to my mind are:
1. arming Saddam up to the teeth and then pretending to not knowing about that
2. establishing diverse regimes in south and central america who were lead by some real sadistic fascist pigs
3. participating only on the israelian side in palestine

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 27th, 2005, 5:43 pm

First of all about overthrowing Bush. Not sure what you mean by overthrow. Do you mean civil war or do you mean impeaching. Impeach is possible if he messes up big time. Civil war wont happen. What will probally happen is he will run his 4 years and then we are on to another president. I think i'm safe to say most americans dont think Bush is a great president, but in my opinion he was the lesser of the two evils.
Americans like everyone else take critisim differently from person to person. I won't sit here and try to defend some of the things america has done. Some will though and its their right. Have all americans really told you that since he is president he isnt a crook? Well let me be the first to tell you then I believe all presidents, governors, senators, ect are crooks. Its the nature of the beast in my opinion.

About guns. Like the old saying goes guns dont kill people, people kill people. I shot my first gun without help at age 3. I have owned guys since i was 10. I have yet to kill someone with a gun or misuse a gun. I have a concealed handgun permit right now that allows me to carry a gun with me in MOST places. Have ever fired at someone? Have I ever pulled it on someone? Thank god not yet, i havent had to. I will keep my guns though for several reasons. I have them to protect me and my family. I have them because i enjoy to go hunting. I have them because i collect them as a hobby. People that shouldnt have guns will always be able to get them. Look at various countries where they are outlawed. They still have them there.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 27th, 2005, 5:58 pm

i meant impeaching...but a civil war on bush would be nice aswell...lol
well i dont want to take it to that gun discussion, but even you did not mention that negative sides of it (far more gunshot kills than in EVERY western country etc.)
But i appreciate your support concerning politicians....:)
Well anyways would you say that many americans are quite narrowminded concerning some special american issues?
I am not narrowminded about German issues (i think at least), thats why i ask...

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 27th, 2005, 6:42 pm

Of course americans are narrow minded about some issues that have to do with america. Just like every other country. Americans have pride for this country. I have pride for this country. What we have in america is a special thing. You can tell the pride americans have because when the world trade center got destoryed you could not find a american flag to save your life. People lined the streets with candles. Our pride showed through.

Think with me a second about what would happen if someone invaded america. You would not only have to worry about the U.S. military forces, but you would also have to worry about a armed people. I know i would not let another country just walk in and take over.

Yes sentenza i agree there are downsides to guns. What i'm trying to explain to you is that would it make you feel better if people were running each other over with cars instead? Cutting each other with knifes? Throwing each other out windows? What i'm trying to say is bad people will do bad things with anything avaliable. Outlawing guns will not keep them out of this country. All that will do in my opinion will be to prevent a law abiding citizen as myself from protecting me and my family.

Haha sorry about killing your hopes but i dont see america getting rid of Bush by civil war.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 28th, 2005, 8:18 pm

But Americans should try not to go blind over their pride. Cause you have many great achivement which are threatened to be thrown into the dirt due to contemporary american foreign policy.
Everyone is with you about 9/11!(Even very many arabs i know!!!)
No one is with you about Haliburton, Carlisle and personal economic interest of some mad rich people in your government.
So let yourself not be mislead about brainwashing.....

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by kodiak » January 29th, 2005, 3:20 am

Hell i'm not even with us with Haliburton. God help us if Schlumberger gets it, but they wont due to the company being based in France haha. I personally hope they give Baker a good slice of that oil pie.

I try not to be mislead i look for different sources of information and read them all and usually you can put two and two together and tell what is false. Brainwashing? Sorry i believe your out of line there if i were brainwashed i wouldnt be trying to look through the smoke and find the truth no matter what president Bush says.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 29th, 2005, 5:51 am

Yea, i am just saying, cause the media is trying to brainwash us somehow...over there and over here.....

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Re: fu-- aMERICA N fu-- BUSH

Unread post by Mraka » January 29th, 2005, 7:39 am

kodiak wrote:what the hell are you talking about mraka? I think you need to stick with the conspiracy theories section when talking about the U.S. because about 90% of the crap you say about it and the president are just that. You make me want to stab myself in the eyes everytime i read a post from you.
Oh!
I don`t think so.It is just like that.And the title of topic you clicked to come here,fits excatly.So, go on!

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by DiaBo » January 29th, 2005, 6:08 pm

Picture this wonder bush say something wrong about north korea president that when we really going to get it.

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Re: FUCK aMERICA N FUCK BUSH

Unread post by Sentenza » January 31st, 2005, 5:20 pm

what do you mean? if youre trying to say that Iraq was an easy job compared to N. Korea or Iran, i d agree.

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