Zoot Suit History

[alexalonso]

in the 1940s the Zoot Suit situation in Los Angeles had a big impact on Latino Los Angeles youth.

[TheReal]

in the 1940s the Zoot Suit situation in Los Angeles had a big impact on Latino Los Angeles youth.

*Don't you think that this post will receive more participation if you titled it "Zoot Suit Riots," as opposed to "Zoot-Suit History?" To call it "Zoot-Suit History", you will have to encompass blacks (not that this is a bad thing, I'm just taking into consideration the prejudices and chauvinisms of others), whereas to call your post "Zoot-Suit Riots", or more specifically "L.A.'s Zoot-Suit Riots", then you'll zero in on mexicans/chicanos, and their specific saga, as it relates to the zoot-suits, during this particular time period.

[wcrockets]

Honestly TheReal, after some of the info you brought, I think the title is appropriate. Let the real complete history of the Zoot Suit be brought forth here. If you would like to contribute to this thread, that might get the ball rolling. I'm working on two other contributions right now for other threads. Peace.

[TheReal]

Honestly TheReal, after some of the info you brought, I think the title is appropriate. Let the real complete history of the Zoot Suit be brought forth here. If you would like to contribute to this thread, that might get the ball rolling. I'm working on two other contributions right now for other threads. Peace.

*I'm staying out of this one, due to respect. This board is dealing with pachucas and cholos, and the history that I'd bring to it, wouldn't necessarily apply, if the original intent is to focus solely and specifically on mexicans/chicanos.

Some may consider me a plague, or a nuisance, but I'm not a monster.

[wcrockets]

A monster? Lol. KNOW you're no monster and just someone with an opinion.

Now Kim Jong-Il is certainly a monster to all those people in his slave camps in North Korea however.

[Dreamer]

ITS PACHUCOS NOT PACHUCAS,THERE WASNT EVEN ANY CHOLOS BACK THEN.UNTIL THE MAFIA STARTED IN PRISON AND FACILITIES.AND ITS BASED MOSTLY ON MEXICANS AND HISPANICS BECAUSE WE CONTAIN MORE GANGS,HAVE MORE HISTORY,AND ARE THE MOSTLY OF THE POPULATION IN THE STATES.

[Impala]

O.K., first off, I aint no expert on this subject..pero I'm gonna just put down the little I know.

From what I heard from tios/tias and older folk who were around at that time. L.A. was like the last stop for lotta troops going to the Pacific side of WW2; mostly Navy and Marines but all going to fight on the Pacific side (vs the Japanese).

So before shipping out it was standard to party out your last liberty and so at any one time there could be hundreds or even thousands of drunk, hard up troops roaming downtown, Hollywood..etc.

I don't know what triggered it, maybe a simple brawl between some soldiers and some local Chicano youth....I don't think anyone knows exactly what started it. But I heard it said that when the M.P.'s/cops would come; they'ed haul off the Chicanos and do nothing to the troops.

Why?...(I'm gonna speculate)

Maybe because the troops were going off to war anyday and aint no point in locking 'em up.
Because the cops were White and racist to Chicano youth.
Because there was supposedly a clothing (cloth/cotton) shortage and the youth with their "Zoot Suits" weren't conforming to the laws. (heard that from a tia/aunt)

Well whatever the reason..the troops started walking the streets beating up on youth in Zoot suits (Chicano/White/Black-if you had a Zoot suit on-they'll hunt you)

Was it because they knew the cops/M.P.'s were gonna look the other way?
Was it because they were pumped up for war?

Quien sabe? (who knows?)

The situation got out of hand because the locals retaliated big time.
Carloads of youth/men/gangmembers etc. headed for downtown, Hollywood and wherever else the s__t was going down and street brawl/riots broke out. Supposedly this lasted about a week.

The commanding General for the L.A. area put his troops on lock down, liberties cancelled, cops came out in force and things died down.

During this time (correct me if I'm wrong gente) the "sleepy lagoon" murder went down and Henry Reyna and his 38th St. pachucos got framed. (Zoot suit prejudice)

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

Good post Impala.

Does anyone else have any contacts with people who lived during those times? I wonder if you could ask them for some of their stories as youths growing up in the LOS during that time. Peace...

[TheReal]

O.K., first off, I aint no expert on this subject..pero I'm gonna just put down the little I know.

From what I heard from tios/tias and older folk who were around at that time. L.A. was like the last stop for lotta troops going to the Pacific side of WW2; mostly Navy and Marines but all going to fight on the Pacific side (vs the Japanese).

So before shipping out it was standard to party out your last liberty and so at any one time there could be hundreds or even thousands of drunk, hard up troops roaming downtown, Hollywood..etc.

I don't know what triggered it, maybe a simple brawl between some soldiers and some local Chicano youth....I don't think anyone knows exactly what started it. But I heard it said that when the M.P.'s/cops would come; they'ed haul off the Chicanos and do nothing to the troops.

Why?...(I'm gonna speculate)

Maybe because the troops were going off to war anyday and aint no point in locking 'em up.
Because the cops were White and racist to Chicano youth.
Because there was supposedly a clothing (cloth/cotton) shortage and the youth with their "Zoot Suits" weren't conforming to the laws. (heard that from a tia/aunt)

Well whatever the reason..the troops started walking the streets beating up on youth in Zoot suits (Chicano/White/Black-if you had a Zoot suit on-they'll hunt you)

Was it because they knew the cops/M.P.'s were gonna look the other way?
Was it because they were pumped up for war?

Quien sabe? (who knows?)

The situation got out of hand because the locals retaliated big time.
Carloads of youth/men/gangmembers etc. headed for downtown, Hollywood and wherever else the s__t was going down and street brawl/riots broke out. Supposedly this lasted about a week.

The commanding General for the L.A. area put his troops on lock down, liberties cancelled, cops came out in force and things died down.

During this time (correct me if I'm wrong gente) the "sleepy lagoon" murder went down and Henry Reyna and his 38th St. pachucos got framed. (Zoot suit prejudice)

*Remember that the unwritten history of this riot, was the black participation, and how blacks were attacked as well. Also, many blacks hid mexicans in their homes: the ones that were being stalked on the streets by the military. Any old chicano from back in the day, if they were honest, would admit to this.

Now, I didn't know that white folks were being attacked. I wondered if it was due to them being mistaken for mexican?

[Impala]

You're right. Back then from what I heard talking to the older folk 'bout those times, particularly the when the "Zoot Suit" riots happened; the Black and Mexican folks were more inclined to help each other out when it came to the "White Authorities".

Also, just to clarify; again from talking to the older folk who lived in those times...the military mainly targeted anyone in a Zoot Suit....White, Black, Mexican, Asian, ...no matter..you wore it, you were a target. Consequently it was mostly Mexican and Black youth sportin' the "drapes"..so they were the 90% of those attacked.

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

Last night on KPBS "American Experience", they had a whole piece about the Sleepy Lagoon Murder and Zoot Suit Riots during the 1930's. Interesting, they had a lot of eyewitnesses speak up on it from both sides. Sailors were as every bit racist as the white gangs that terrorized black citizens in the LOS. It was a good piece, with more than just he say she say. There were a few historians that had researched their views and topics. From what was originally between sailors and the pachucos who wore zoot suits, became white boys vs. mexican american youth. The whites had added to their cause as part of the "war" effort. The mexican american youth were protecting themselves. The only ones who got arrested were the pachucos, the sailors were always let go. It got to the point where sailors, army cats, from as far away as Las Vegas and other states came to the LOS to run up in Mexican-American neighborhoods. And LAPD let it all happen. Some things never change...

[mangler]

.

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

Who said Blacks never sported the Zoot Suit? Man, check The Autobiography of Malcolm X...when he was a hustler his "vines" were zoot suits. That was the whole Jazz scene. And apparently Los Angeles had a deep Jazz scene (Central Avenue) back in those days. But I figure the blacks didn't wear it with the Pachuco attitude, they were "jazzed out" doing their thing in all the underground clubs of L.A. The Pachuco's were walking the walk and talking their talk on the street and at parties, dances, on the boulevards. Same suit, different attitudes and different scene.

[wcrockets]

Yeah the whole West Coast Swing jazz thing was big.

[Guest]

"But I figure the blacks didn't wear it with the Pachuco attitude, they were "jazzed out" doing their thing in all the underground clubs of L.A. "The Pachuco's were walking the walk and talking their talk on the street and at parties, dances, on the boulevards. Same suit, different attitudes and different scene." - big dusty loco


thats a damn joke, lol, how u gonna say that? u "figure" , well how do u figure? lol , the blacks wuz puttin it down way before "pachucos" and thats not just speaking of los angeles, even all other cities, detroit, chicago, new york, thats where the zoot suites came from

lol @ ure redicolous comment..........

[E`S`T]

I just finished reading a book for my History class that talks about the Detroit riots in the 1940's. And this book is a primary source of the accounts. I the book it states that the black urban young men from Detroit wore the zoot suit as a sign of rebellion "copying" the style from Mexican/American young men living in California at the time. Don't come with "here say" come with proof. If you don't know or you think you know, be quiet!! Period..They copied the style because of the riots that white boy soldiers started becuase of the war. The book for all you know it all's is called "Thinking through the Past" A critical thinking approach to U.S History by John Hollitz...Read it then come with that knowledge!!!!

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

purpledwyckeater,

Read my post, even between the lines. I said I figured the Blacks were doing their own thing, had their own slang, and were the basis of much of the Jazz scene in Los Angeles during their time. You come with the proof that some Black dude in a zoot suit was speaking in Spanish to all his homies on Central Avenue...you dumbass. I never said blacks didn't sport zoot suits in different cities, YES THEY DID. And what fool? Hey, blacks used to conk out their hair to look straight like the white man...oh but let me guess your gonna say back in Africa they used to do that before the white man...LOL man the way some cats be thinking up on this board. You don't like what's being said, fine, come through with some dialogue or lecture, let's understand one another. All this sideline wisecracks don't get nowhere. Don't tell me it's my homie wattscrackin trippin on me about some racial issue again? Dog, I thought we got over that trip?

[BIG DUSTY LOCO]

yeah this argument is moot now. Can't argue if no one wants to accept truths.

[mangler]

naw dusty your speaking some real sh/t....but lets kept it real.

*THIS IS AMERICAN. THIS IS A HYBRID SOCIETY. HOW CAN U NOT BORROW FROM OVER RACES HERE. WERE FUC*N NEIGHBORS...

*CHECK THIS OUT...ZOOT SUITS CAME OUT OF THE JAZZ CULTURE. WE ESTABLISHED THAT ALREADY..THE ESE'S IN L.A HAD TO BORROW THAT..THEY JUST ROCKED IT AND PUT IT OUT THERE HARDER THEN THE BROTHERES ON THE WESTCOAST...AS FAR AS DETRIOT 1940S, THOSE BROTHER'S CAME LATE, BORROWING FROM CATS THAT MIGRATED TO THE AREA FROM CHI-TOWN, NEW YORK AND NEW ORLEANS..CATS IN THESE AREAS WERE SPORTING THESE SUITS B4 THE 1940'S DETRIOT RIOTS...

*BROTHERS BORROWED FROM THE ESE'S THAT 1970'S/EARLY 80'S GANG BANG LOOK...BUT BY THE MID TO LATE 80'S, THEY MIXED IT UP AND ADDED A DIFFERENT MORE COLORFUL LOOK TO IT..NEW YORK BROTHER'S BROUGHT THAT NEW STLYE OF GRAFITTI AND DRESS TO THE WEST COAST. L.A BROTHERS TOOK SOME, AND THREW AWAY OTHER LOOKS, AND ADDED IT TO THE FOLD..

*AS FOR THE LOW RIDERS, SAME SH/T, ESE'S ROCKED IT FIRST, BROTHERS ADDED STYLE AND COLOR TO IT.......

*FROM THE JAZZ CULTURE TO THE HIP HOP CULTURE, SAME SH-T, DIFFERENT ERA...

*90% OF U ESE'S ON HERE KNOW U LOVE OUR STYLE. U CAN TELL U GUYS ARE INTERESTED IN THE CULTURE, AND THAT U READ UP ON HISTORY...VICE-VERSA....SO STALL US OUT ON WITH THE JERIL CURL AND RACIALLY-MOTIVATED POWER PLAY COMMENTS AND OTHER RACIST SH/T THAT YOUR EXPRESSING IN THESE POSTS..IT JUST SHOW YOUR HYPOCRISY.....

*U BORROW FROM US, WE BORROW FROM U AND ADDED FUNK TO IT...

[wcrockets]

Seriously the cats rocking the early west coast jazz scene before the zoot suit riots were Black fellas. Now La Raza mad it gangsta. The give and take between the races has happened since then. Be real. Peace.

[THALOCPASADENA]

Set in the environment of ethnic and racial paranoia that defined the early 1940s in Los Angeles, California, the "Zoot Suit Riots" were a defining moment for Zoot Suiters and the Mexican American community. The ethnic populations of California as a whole, and Los Angeles in particular, were under siege. In March and April of 1942, the entire Japanese and Japanese American population on the West Coast of the United States were deported to "relocation centers" (mild euphemisms for concentration camps) located in the interior of the U.S.. Without the Japanese Americans around to focus the locals' racial paranoia, Los Angeleans began to look toward the Zoot Suiters. A "Mexican Crime Wave" was announced by local newspapers (precursors to today's tabloids and pioneers in "yellow journalism"), and a special grand jury was appointed by the city of Los Angeles to investigate.
Around the same time, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department also decided to investigate and appointed E. Duran Ayres to head their Foreign Relations Bureau. And though Mr. Ayres accurately identified much of the active discrimination that was occurring against the "Mexican element", he drew some startling conclusions which were presented to the grand jury:

"He stated that Mexican Americans are essentially Indians and therefore Orientals or Asians. Throughout history, he declared, the Orientals have shown less regard for human life than have the Europeans. Further, Mexican Americans had inherited their 'naturally violent' tendencies from the 'bloodthirsty Aztecs' of Mexico who were said to have practiced human sacrifice centuries ago. At one point in his report Ayres even compared the Anglo to a domesticated house cat and the Mexican to a 'wild cat,' suggesting that the Mexican would forever retain his wild and violent tendencies no matter how much education or training he might receive.

On the night of August 1, 1942, zoot suiter Henry Leyvas, 20, and some of his friends were involved in a fight with another group of pachucos at the Williams Ranch by a lagoon. Later the next morning, a man named José Díaz was found bleeding and unconscious on a road near the lagoon (later named the Sleepy Lagoon by a reporter). He later died. The autopsy revealed that Mr. Díaz was drunk at the time of death and that his death was the result of blunt head trauma. Though one medical examiner stated that his injuries were consistent with that of being hit by a car, Henry Leyvas and 24 members of the "38th Street gang" (as the group had been dubbed by the local tabloids) were arrested and charged with the murder of José Díaz. Led by the local tabloids, a public outcry for "justice" and vengeance against the zoot suiters caused the Los Angeles Police Department to conduct a roundup of over 600 people on the nights of August 10th and 11th. All were charged with such things as suspicion of assault, armed robbery, etc., and 175 people were held on these charges. Of the 600 plus people arrested during this roundup, every single one was a Spanish surnamed individual!

During the time leading up to the trial and for two weeks into the trial, Henry Leyvas and his co-defendants were not allowed to change their clothes by order of the trial judge, Charles Fricke. The district attorney reasoned, and Judge Fricke agreed, that the jury should see the defendants in the zoot suits, which were obviously only worn by "hoodlums". During the trial, 22 of the 24 co-defendants including Henry Leyvas were tried together. They were not allowed to sit with or talk with their lawyers. Whenever their names were mentioned by a witness or the District Attorney, the defendants were instructed by the judge to stand up, regardless of how damning the statements being made were. Judge Fricke also had E. Duran Ayres come and testify as an "expert" witness as to his belief of the Mexicans' penchant for killing and their "blood thirst". The trial went on for five months and on January 15, 1943, nine of the co-defendants (including Henry Leyvas) were found guilty of second degree murder, given prison terms of five years to life, and shipped off to the infamous San Quentin Prison. This entire incident is documented in the 1981 movie by Luis Valdez, Zoot Suit.

Against this backdrop of hate and vengeance toward the Mexican American community in Los Angeles, what is known as the "Zoot Suit Riots" (though they are now often referred to as the "sailor riots") occurred. On the night of June 3, 1943, eleven sailors on shore leave stated that they were attacked by a group of Mexican pachucos. In response to this, a group of over 200 uniformed sailors chartered 20 cabs and charged into the heart of the Mexican American community in East Los Angeles. Any zoot suiter was fair game. On this and the following nights, many a zoot suiter was beaten by this mob and stripped of their clothes, their zoot suits, on the spot. Nine sailors were arrested during these disturbances, not one was charged with any crime. On the following nights of June 4th and 5th, the uniformed servicemen (by this time the sailors had been joined by soldiers) again invaded East Los Angeles, marching abreast down the streets, breaking into bars and theaters, and assaulting anyone in their way. Not one was arrested by the Police or the Sheriff. In fact, the servicemen were portrayed in the local press as heroes stemming the tide of the "Mexican Crime Wave." During the nights of June 6th and 7th, these scenes were again repeated. Time Magazine later reported that, "The police practice was to accompany the caravans of soldiers and sailors in police cars, watch the beatings and jail the victims." According to Rudolpho Acuña in Occupied America, "Seventeen-year-old Enrico Herrera, after he was beaten and arrested, spent three hours at a police station, where he was found by his mother, still naked and bleeding. A 12-year-old boy's jaw was broken. Police arrested over 600 Chicano youths without cause and labeled the arrests 'preventive' action. Angelenos cheered on the servicemen and their civilian allies."3

Finally, at midnight on June 7th, because the navy believed it had on actual mutiny on hand, the military authorities did what the city of Los Angeles would not, they moved to stop the rioting of their personnel. Los Angeles was declared off limits for all military personnel. Though there were little consequences for the rioters (servicemen and local law enforcement authorities alike), there was some public outcry. On June 16th, 1943, Eleanor Roosevelt commented in her column that, "The question goes deeper than just suits. It is a racial protest. I have been worried for a long time about the Mexican racial situation. It is a problem with roots going a long way back, and we do not always face these problems as we should." Los Angeles' response was typified by the June 18th headlines of the Los Angeles Times, "Mrs. Roosevelt Blindly Stirs Race Discord," and she was accused of communist leanings in the accompanying editorial. Governor Earl Warren (later Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court during their landmark desegregation cases) convened a committee to investigate the riots and recommended punishment for all involved in the riots, servicemen and civilians. Other than the charges filed against the Mexican American victims, no punishment was ever meted out.

[THALOCPASADENA]

naw dusty your speaking some real sh/t....but lets kept it real.

*THIS IS AMERICAN. THIS IS A HYBRID SOCIETY. HOW CAN U NOT BORROW FROM OVER RACES HERE. WERE FUC*N NEIGHBORS...

*CHECK THIS OUT...ZOOT SUITS CAME OUT OF THE JAZZ CULTURE. WE ESTABLISHED THAT ALREADY..THE ESE'S IN L.A HAD TO BORROW THAT..THEY JUST ROCKED IT AND PUT IT OUT THERE HARDER THEN THE BROTHERES ON THE WESTCOAST...AS FAR AS DETRIOT 1940S, THOSE BROTHER'S CAME LATE, BORROWING FROM CATS THAT MIGRATED TO THE AREA FROM CHI-TOWN, NEW YORK AND NEW ORLEANS..CATS IN THESE AREAS WERE SPORTING THESE SUITS B4 THE 1940'S DETRIOT RIOTS...

*BROTHERS BORROWED FROM THE ESE'S THAT 1970'S/EARLY 80'S GANG BANG LOOK...BUT BY THE MID TO LATE 80'S, THEY MIXED IT UP AND ADDED A DIFFERENT MORE COLORFUL LOOK TO IT..NEW YORK BROTHER'S BROUGHT THAT NEW STLYE OF GRAFITTI AND DRESS TO THE WEST COAST. L.A BROTHERS TOOK SOME, AND THREW AWAY OTHER LOOKS, AND ADDED IT TO THE FOLD..

*AS FOR THE LOW RIDERS, SAME SH/T, ESE'S ROCKED IT FIRST, BROTHERS ADDED STYLE AND COLOR TO IT.......

*FROM THE JAZZ CULTURE TO THE HIP HOP CULTURE, SAME SH-T, DIFFERENT ERA...

*90% OF U ESE'S ON HERE KNOW U LOVE OUR STYLE. U CAN TELL U GUYS ARE INTERESTED IN THE CULTURE, AND THAT U READ UP ON HISTORY...VICE-VERSA....SO STALL US OUT ON WITH THE JERIL CURL AND RACIALLY-MOTIVATED POWER PLAY COMMENTS AND OTHER RACIST SH/T THAT YOUR EXPRESSING IN THESE POSTS..IT JUST SHOW YOUR HYPOCRISY.....

*U BORROW FROM US, WE BORROW FROM U AND ADDED FUNK TO IT...

THAT'S ALL THE WAY REAL... THATS SOME OF THE REALIST SHIT. ALL OF YALL NEED TO READ THAT POST TWICE AND READ MINE 3 X'S LOC

[TheReal]

I just finished reading a book for my History class that talks about the Detroit riots in the 1940's. And this book is a primary source of the accounts. I the book it states that the black urban young men from Detroit wore the zoot suit as a sign of rebellion "copying" the style from Mexican/American young men living in California at the time. Don't come with "here say" come with proof. If you don't know or you think you know, be quiet!! Period..They copied the style because of the riots that white boy soldiers started becuase of the war. The book for all you know it all's is called "Thinking through the Past" A critical thinking approach to U.S History by John Hollitz...Read it then come with that knowledge!!!!

*DAMN FOOL RACIST DEVIL, BLACK FOLKS WERE THE ONES WHO ORIGINATED THE ZOOT-SUIT STYLE OF DRESS, NOT MEXICANS!! So what if the riots in Detroit, came after the Zoot-Suit riots in L.A., IT STILL DOESN'T TAKE AWAY THE FACT THAT BLACK FOLKS WERE THE ORIGINAL ONES TO SPORT THIS GARB FOOL!!!

[TheReal]

The give and take between the races has happened since then. Be real. Peace.

*That may be so, but if you notice, mexicans don't want to give black folks credit for NADA; and they're always sneaking in, once folks are asleep, the doctrine that they were the first ones in x,y, and z, and that they were, and are, original in everything!!

Man, it got so bad one time, to where this mexican guy told me that I was trying to act mexican, just because I listened to oldies, and drove a brougham!! Mind you, the music that I was listening to came from black folks, and was performed by black folks. And when the songs were released, IT WAS LISTENED TO BY BLACK FOLKS!!! But just because I was listening to these oldies from the 70's, a music that is apart of my cultural background, I'M NOW TRYING TO ACT LIKE MEXICANS!!!!! To me, that is an example of extreme heights of arrogance, and a racist chauvinism, that rivals anything that white folks can and do put out!

I mean this fool is going to become angry with me, because I'm appreciating and enjoying, a cultural nuance that my people originated.

However, this fool also was getting on me, because of the ride I was cruising in, AS IF BLACK FOLKS DIDN'T RIDE BROUGHAMS DURING THE 70'S, JUST MEXICANS!!! Again, what arrogance, seeing as how mexicans didn't invent the automobile, or the fascination with those type of cars, nationwide-particularly during the timeframe these type of vehicles came out!

What does this have to do with the zoot-suits? Well, I would imagine that many mexicans would piss in their pants, if they saw a black person wearing a zoot-suit, seeing as how many of them would looooooove to believe that they were never influenced by one iota of black culture, in any way-even though zoot-suits origins are rooted in a sector of the black community. Again, this is arrogance that is tantamount to what white supremacists have, in believing that what another culture produces, automatically should belong to them (in this case mexicans are thinking this way), not because of the fact that they created it, rather because the folks that they are appropriating it from are beneath them, and don't deserve it because they generally have no culture.

Now many mexicans, and others, claim this same type of behavior onto blacks, which is a way of masking their own duplicity as cultural bandits, and soul-patrollers!

Are black folks guiltless, when it comes to this type of behavior? NO!!! But black folks are always attacked and criticized for their wrongdoings, in this regard. It's now time to focus on the culpability of mexicans!!! Many of them arrogantly feel that just because they are in the majority in L.A., and in other parts of the country (remember, there are more blacks than their are mexicans nationwide; the only reason why presently, the latinos/hispanics, have a nationwide majority, is because they're counting in other ethnic nationalities that fall under the latino/hispanic category-even those who are of african descent, or just outright black) that whatever they say, or do, is right, just because they say or do it, which includes tampering with the history books, and black folks accomplishments, amongst other things, as well as how things truly were.

[Guest]

real shit

[Guest]

real shit

[GIBBY]

real stuff

LOL Werent your crip homies claiming Watts VARRIO Grape Street SUR13 before???

[wcrockets]

The give and take between the races has happened since then. Be real. Peace.

*That may be so, but if you notice, mexicans don't want to give black folks credit for NADA; and they're always sneaking in, once folks are asleep, the doctrine that they were the first ones in x,y, and z, and that they were, and are, original in everything!!

Man, it got so bad one time, to where this mexican guy told me that I was trying to act mexican, just because I listened to oldies, and drove a brougham!! Mind you, the music that I was listening to came from black folks, and was performed by black folks. And when the songs were released, IT WAS LISTENED TO BY BLACK FOLKS!!! But just because I was listening to these oldies from the 70's, a music that is apart of my cultural background, I'M NOW TRYING TO ACT LIKE MEXICANS!!!!! To me, that is an example of extreme heights of arrogance, and a racist chauvinism, that rivals anything that white folks can and do put out!

I mean this fool is going to become angry with me, because I'm appreciating and enjoying, a cultural nuance that my people originated.

However, this fool also was getting on me, because of the ride I was cruising in, AS IF BLACK FOLKS DIDN'T RIDE BROUGHAMS DURING THE 70'S, JUST MEXICANS!!! Again, what arrogance, seeing as how mexicans didn't invent the automobile, or the fascination with those type of cars, nationwide-particularly during the timeframe these type of vehicles came out!

What does this have to do with the zoot-suits? Well, I would imagine that many mexicans would piss in their pants, if they saw a black person wearing a zoot-suit, seeing as how many of them would looooooove to believe that they were never influenced by one iota of black culture, in any way-even though zoot-suits origins are rooted in a sector of the black community. Again, this is arrogance that is tantamount to what white supremacists have, in believing that what another culture produces, automatically should belong to them (in this case mexicans are thinking this way), not because of the fact that they created it, rather because the folks that they are appropriating it from are beneath them, and don't deserve it because they generally have no culture.

Now many mexicans, and others, claim this same type of behavior onto blacks, which is a way of masking their own duplicity as cultural bandits, and soul-patrollers!

Are black folks guiltless, when it comes to this type of behavior? NO!!! But black folks are always attacked and criticized for their wrongdoings, in this regard. It's now time to focus on the culpability of mexicans!!! Many of them arrogantly feel that just because they are in the majority in L.A., and in other parts of the country (remember, there are more blacks than their are mexicans nationwide; the only reason why presently, the latinos/hispanics, have a nationwide majority, is because they're counting in other ethnic nationalities that fall under the latino/hispanic category-even those who are of african descent, or just outright black) that whatever they say, or do, is right, just because they say or do it, which includes tampering with the history books, and black folks accomplishments, amongst other things, as well as how things truly were.

You got it right on this post. I concur.

[wcrockets]

real stuff

LOL Werent your crip homies claiming Watts VARRIO Grape Street SUR13 before???

My homies from Grape agree with your statement Gibby, however, that doesn't negate the historical, cultural, and political points that The Real has made that are true. I'm not cosigning for him just saying: make a list, go down the list, research and see which ones are true and which ones you can make an opposing argument for and then concentrate on those. I mean don't argue with the man when he's right. What is the point of that? He has made valid points.

[wcrockets]

I'm a check out that book though "Thinking through the past" by John Hollitz. See what it says. Peace.

[XRAY2]

naw dusty your speaking some real sh/t....but lets kept it real.

*THIS IS AMERICAN. THIS IS A HYBRID SOCIETY. HOW CAN U NOT BORROW FROM OVER RACES HERE. WERE FUC*N NEIGHBORS...

*CHECK THIS OUT...ZOOT SUITS CAME OUT OF THE JAZZ CULTURE. WE ESTABLISHED THAT ALREADY..THE ESE'S IN L.A HAD TO BORROW THAT..THEY JUST ROCKED IT AND PUT IT OUT THERE HARDER THEN THE BROTHERES ON THE WESTCOAST...AS FAR AS DETRIOT 1940S, THOSE BROTHER'S CAME LATE, BORROWING FROM CATS THAT MIGRATED TO THE AREA FROM CHI-TOWN, NEW YORK AND NEW ORLEANS..CATS IN THESE AREAS WERE SPORTING THESE SUITS B4 THE 1940'S DETRIOT RIOTS...

*BROTHERS BORROWED FROM THE ESE'S THAT 1970'S/EARLY 80'S GANG BANG LOOK...BUT BY THE MID TO LATE 80'S, THEY MIXED IT UP AND ADDED A DIFFERENT MORE COLORFUL LOOK TO IT..NEW YORK BROTHER'S BROUGHT THAT NEW STLYE OF GRAFITTI AND DRESS TO THE WEST COAST. L.A BROTHERS TOOK SOME, AND THREW AWAY OTHER LOOKS, AND ADDED IT TO THE FOLD..

*AS FOR THE LOW RIDERS, SAME SH/T, ESE'S ROCKED IT FIRST, BROTHERS ADDED STYLE AND COLOR TO IT.......

*FROM THE JAZZ CULTURE TO THE HIP HOP CULTURE, SAME SH-T, DIFFERENT ERA...

*90% OF U ESE'S ON HERE KNOW U LOVE OUR STYLE. U CAN TELL U GUYS ARE INTERESTED IN THE CULTURE, AND THAT U READ UP ON HISTORY...VICE-VERSA....SO STALL US OUT ON WITH THE JERIL CURL AND RACIALLY-MOTIVATED POWER PLAY COMMENTS AND OTHER RACIST SH/T THAT YOUR EXPRESSING IN THESE POSTS..IT JUST SHOW YOUR HYPOCRISY.....

*U BORROW FROM US, WE BORROW FROM U AND ADDED FUNK TO IT...

YEA MANGLER,
YOUR RIGHT, CAUSE MY G-DAD BACK IN HIS DAY
HE WORE THOSE ZOOT SUITS IN THE 1920'S

ALL THE OLD PICTURE'S THAT I'VE SEEN.

AN I WANTED TO ASK WHAT GANG BANG LOOK BRO'S USE
IN THE 70'S AND 80'S LOOK?

MY OG'S GIVE SOME GAME
AND HE WAS SAYIN ON THE LOW RIDIN
BRO'S AND MEXICANS BEEN LOW RIDIN
AROUND THE SAME TIME BACK IN THE DAYS
IT JUST WASNT ALOT OF BLACKS DOING IT
UNTIL LATER

[Eak]

Come on guys dont let this turn into a Black on Mexican arguement. Both races wore the zoot suites it doesent even matter who did it first. Each race borrowed from one another anyway.