WICCA

[Anonymous20]

WICCA (OTHERWISE KNOWN AS WITCHCRAFT).............I HAVE BEEN A WITCH (AND YES MEN AND WOMEN WERE ORIGINALLY CALLED WITCHES) NOW FOR OVER5 YEARS. I BELIEVE IN GOD VERY STRONGLY...........ALL WITCHES DO. THE WORD "WICCA: ITSELF MEANS "THE WAY OF THE WISE"....COMMONLY KNOWN AS WICCACRAFT OR WITCHCRAFT...........IT IS THE OLD WAY, THE ANCIENT WAY.
I PRACTICE ECLECTIC/SOUTH AMERICAN WICCA......WE BELIEVE IN GOD AS A FORCE THAT CAN NOT EVEN BE FATHOMED..........THEREFOR WE GIVE IT NO SHAPE, FORM, SIZE, COLOR, RACE, SMELL OR ANYTHING ELSE...............TO US IT IS A FORCE THAT WE DRAW NERGY AND STRENGTH FROM...........WE SEE IT'S MASCULINE AND FEMENINE ASPECTS AS MANIFESTED HERE ON EARTH THRU NATURE..........
T.V AND CHRISTIANITY GAV US A BAD NAME BCAUSE THEY FEAR US BUTWE DO NO HARM........OUR # 1 LAW IS "'AN IT HARM NONE DO WHAT THOU WILY"...........MEANING "DO WHAT U WANT- JUST DON'T HURT NE 1."

CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL MORE THAN WE DO BECAUSE WE DON'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEVIL AS EVEN EXISTING.........THAT WAS A LIE MADE UP TO DETROY OUR WAY.......BEACAUSE IN THE OLD DAYS WITCHES HAD IMAGES OF A HORNED BEING.......THAT REPRESENTED GOD AS HUNTER.......THE HORNS REPRESENTED WINTER.....MAN......THE ANIMAL HE HUNTED.....

ABRACADABRA............MANY OF U HEARD THAT RIGHT? KNOW WHAT IT MEANS/......IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER. SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT..........IN HEBREW.

WE DO PRACTICE MAGIC, BUT IT IS NOT IN THE HOLLYWOOD SENSE OF THE WORD.........MAGIC TO US IS LIKE PRAYER TO A CHRISTIAN.......WE DO MAGIC (PRAY) TO OUR HIGHER POWER, AND WE BELIEVE SOOOOOOOO STRONGLY IN IT THAT WE KNOW IT WILL COME TRUE...........

GOD AND GODDESS...........LORD AND LADY........BLESSED BE!



I HOPE THAT THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE TRULY ABOUT GAINING KNOWLEDGE ILL NOT JUDGE TILL YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF.......DO A LIL RESEARCH FIRST............ASK ME ALL THE QUESTIONS YOU WANT........BE OPEN.........THEN AND ONLY THEN, WHEN YOU SEE THINGS FROM THE OUTSIDE AND WITH OPEN EYES WILL U BE ABLE TO EVEN RECOGNIZE TRUTH........

PEACE TO U ALL.....................BLESSED BE

BrownAndProud------
aka: El Brujo TupacAmaru
translated:
The WitchRoyalSerpent

[Kemosave]

Oh yes, I'll be back to deal with this post when I get more time. Count on it.

[G bka C.rum]

Do you believe that the bible are the words of God? So you would be considered a warlock or magician being that your a male witch correct?

[Anonymous20]

no i am not warlock..........that are terms that satanist use............i am not a satanist.................there is only 1 witch.........men and women are called witches. that is all just hype. i give no credibility to satanists. those who claim to b satanists are just feeding into the LIE that christianity has created. those are people that hat christianity so much and have no sense ogf direction so they call themselves satanists.....

ANYWAT I AM A WICCAN. A WITCH. NOT A WARLOCK. NOT A SORCERER........I AM WICCA......"OF THE WISE".

THERE ARE THOSE WHO PRACTICE OTHER RELIGIONS. THEY CALL THEMSELVES WITCHES, WARLOCKS, SORCERERS, MAGI, LORDS, MEDICINE MEN, WITCH DOCTOR, PRIESTS,.....ETC......THE LIST GOES ON.
IN MY RELIGION WE R CALLED WITCHES. TO SAY THAT WITCHES ARE BAD IS A VERY IGORANT STATEMENT. IT'S LIKE SAYING ALL PRIESTS ARE EVIL BECAUSE YOU WITNESSED A VOUDUN HIGH PRIEST PERFORM A HUMAN SACRIFICE.

[Panik]

no i am not warlock..........that are terms that satanist use............i am not a satanist.................there is only 1 witch.........men and women are called witches. that is all just hype. i give no credibility to satanists. those who claim to b satanists are just feeding into the LIE that christianity has created. those are people that hat christianity so much and have no sense ogf direction so they call themselves satanists.....

ANYWAT I AM A WICCAN. A WITCH. NOT A WARLOCK. NOT A SORCERER........I AM WICCA......"OF THE WISE".

THERE ARE THOSE WHO PRACTICE OTHER RELIGIONS. THEY CALL THEMSELVES WITCHES, WARLOCKS, SORCERERS, MAGI, LORDS, MEDICINE MEN, WITCH DOCTOR, PRIESTS,.....ETC......THE LIST GOES ON.
IN MY RELIGION WE R CALLED WITCHES. TO SAY THAT WITCHES ARE BAD IS A VERY IGORANT STATEMENT. IT'S LIKE SAYING ALL PRIESTS ARE EVIL BECAUSE YOU WITNESSED A VOUDUN HIGH PRIEST PERFORM A HUMAN SACRIFICE.

yeah, I had a homegirl that was a wicca. they are basically a religion based on nature. Similar to many religions of native americans and africans before colonization.

[Anonymous20]

very true.........u know ur shit...........good to know someone does....peace

[Kemosave]

I will be addressing this in detail in the near future. For now simply understand that Wicca and Satanism are different. Wicca has it's roots in paganism. Got to work but I'll be back on this.

[Panik]

kemo, all paganism means is a religion not accepted by christians. According to them all native religions of the americas, africa, europe, etc are all pagan.

here it is from the dictionary


Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism.

[Anonymous20]

although u guys areboth right.....pagan is one thing.....PAGAN MEANS "OF THE EARTH"........simple......doesnt matter what anyone or what the lexicon says.

all of our anscestors were pagans. no matter who you are. BLACK,WHITE, YELLOW, RED OR BROWN. IN THE BEINNING EVERYONE WAS PAGAN.

it's great that this brotha kemo chose to use that word. it shows perfectly just how pure and loving this religion truly is.




@ KEMO--- U R RIGHT BRO, WITCHCRAFT AND SATANISM R 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. TO BE HONEST, SATANISM IS A GHOST RELIGION. THAT MEANS IT REALLY DOESN'T EXIST. IT'S ONE OF THOSE THING THAT THE CHUCH CREATED TO SCARE PEOPLE AWAY FROM WICCA, YORUBA REL'S AND ALL OTHER NATURE-BASED RELIGIONS.
THEY CREATED THIS SATAN THING.....AND PEOPLE RAN WITH IT.....I AM FIRST GENERATION TO LEAVE THE ANDES MOUNTAINS OF WHAT IS NOW KNOWN AS SOUTH AMERIKKA. I SAY THIS ONLY TO SAY THAT I GET MY INFORMATION FROM EXPERIENCE NOT BOOKS. WE ALL KNOW THAT BOOKS ARE JUST ANOTHER MAN'S OPINIONS IN WRITING .
THIS IS A GREAT DISCUSSION AND I THANK ALONSO FOR PUTTING THIS HERE, BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT GANGS AND THIS TOPIC DO GO HAND IN HAND..BELIEVE IT OR NOT THERE IS A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE 2. FOR ME IT HAD A HUGE PART IN MY STREET LIFE. AND VICE VERSA.

AND THANX TO U 2 FOR SPEAKING AND ASKING AND JUST DEALING WITH THIS MATURELY. FELL FREE TO ASK AND TELL.


BROWN AND PROUD

[Kemosave]

As I've already said, I'm busy right now finishing a couple of books on other matters but will be back with a concise reply for this thread.

But since you put those words in my mouth in your last post Brown and Proud, I feel it necessary to clarify my position: Just for the record, I don't think Witchcraft is a beautiful religion and I do think occult practices harm those who practice them. The Devil in whom you don't believe is the source of power behind your "religion" appearing as an "angel of light" to deceive and destroy. Only God the holy creator has the power to deliver and restore those heavily involved. Have a nice day.

[Anonymous20]

and did "YOUR GOD" TEACH U TO PERSECUTE OTHERS??/,.......................OH YEAH GREAT RELIGION........................FUCKING HYPOCRIT......................AT LEAST WE FOLLOW OUR LAWS................

LOOK AT THIS PEOPLE/.........I HAVE TO SAY NOTHING..................HE PROVES MY POINT.......................HE CLAIMS TO B CHRISTIAN AND WITH HIS HYPOCRITIC WAYS I BELIEVE HIM 100%...................HE IS PERSECUTING...........DISRESPECTING..............ABUSING.............DISCRIMINTATING...................ETC,.................AND CLAIMS TO BE "CHRISTIAN"..................................LOOK AT THIS PEOPLE.............LEARN FROM THIS MAN............................AND JUST BE YOU......................BEACAUSE IF HE REPRESENTS WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS ALL ABOUT............ THEN CHRISTIANITY IS A "DEVIL: RELIGION....


KEMO............ I LOVE YOU BROTHER....YOU R OF THE EARTH TOO... JUST GOT UR EYES CLOSED RIGHT NOW.............




BROWN AND PROUD

[Panik]

yeah kemo, I think your outta line for that one. They worship the earth. How can nature worship be the devil? even in your eyes god created the earth and everything in it. Seems overly judgemental, and rude to basically call him a devil worshipper. And just for the record, all of your religions holidays are based on pagen rituals and holy days. there are no holy days in the bible, there are no dates. All there days you take as christian hollidays are no more than pagen holidays with different names from a pagen calander. Think about it next christmas, and maybe you should be sacrificing farm animals for the winter solstice, which is what December 25th originally was for. And Sunday was for worshiping the sun god. Come on kemo, thought you were more tolorant and open minded than this.

[Kemosave]

I tolerate people very well. That includes people who disagree with me. I do not, however, tolerate that which I understand to be false. I'm not that wishy washy Panik and guess what, neither are you. I'll eventually get back to this thread but I'm done with it for now. I'm finishing up other projects right now for other people. Bottom line: What you believe and what it actually is counts for something whether or not one chooses to believe that or not.

[Panik]

but my point is that Christianity is a melding of pagen beliefs and ideas along with judaism. Yet you would call paganism devil worship. My question is how can they be devil worshippers, yet it's OK for christians to sontinue to practice altered pagen rituals under a new name and be OK? Seems like if you practice christmas, easter, or go to church on sunday you are just falling into the devils plan then. You just think you are preying to God, but you are doing it the way the devil wants you to. Not that I believe this necessarily, but by your own judgement kemo, this is true. I don't believe in any of this stuff as you know, but I can see nothing more pure than to worship nature. Nature worship is the only type of religion that doesn;t cause hate of other people based on their beliefs. Look at the Native americans and africans. They had very basic nature worship based religions, and how many religious wars did they ever have? None that I know of. Maybe territorial, or over food, but it is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam that have coused so much war and suffering since they started. Seems like all they di is the devils work. And they systematic ally in Africa and the Americas killed or subjugated all or most of the nature worshippers. Again, the devils work? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Anonymous20]

"the man that knows something.....knows that he knows NOTHING AT ALL"

[G bka C.rum]

but my point is that Christianity is a melding of pagen beliefs and ideas along with judaism. Yet you would call paganism devil worship. My question is how can they be devil worshippers, yet it's OK for christians to sontinue to practice altered pagen rituals under a new name and be OK? Seems like if you practice christmas, easter, or go to church on sunday you are just falling into the devils plan then. You just think you are preying to God, but you are doing it the way the devil wants you to. Not that I believe this necessarily, but by your own judgement kemo, this is true. I don't believe in any of this stuff as you know, but I can see nothing more pure than to worship nature. Nature worship is the only type of religion that doesn;t cause hate of other people based on their beliefs. Look at the Native americans and africans. They had very basic nature worship based religions, and how many religious wars did they ever have? None that I know of. Maybe territorial, or over food, but it is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam that have coused so much war and suffering since they started. Seems like all they di is the devils work. And they systematic ally in Africa and the Americas killed or subjugated all or most of the nature worshippers. Again, the devils work? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thats crazy this cat is a athiest and knows more about christianity then many whole-hearted christians. Yes almost if not all modern Christian customs derive from Pagen worship and Gods Christmas is an old babylonian custom that stems all the way from ancient Babel which worships nimrod when you go into its history in which the Bible condemns in Jer.10;1-5 if this isnt talking about Christmas tell me what it is talking about then. Easter is the worship of the fertility Goddess asteroth and has nothing to do with Christ resurection how do you get three days and three nights from Good Friday evening till Sunday morning it doesnt add up. Yes the word easter is in the bible but when you go into the common sense of it. It clearly tells you they really were celebrating the Passover. I agree on this with Panik to say that modern day Christianity isnt a Pagen religion just as Satanic as witchcraft is pure contradiction

[Kemosave]

An ex-Wicca witch now a Christian shared the following which Christian scholars agree with. Before I get to your individual posts I'd like to share it with you as it properly communicates much.

I. Wicca Defined:

The three basics of witchcraft & most Neopaganism (and some Eastern belief systems as well) are pantheism, monism, and usually polytheism.

Pantheism is the belief that all is God(dess) and that God(dess) is all and thus assumes divine forces within oneself and in nature. Monism claims that all is one and one is all, and assumes a mystical oneness, force, or life force that connects us to nature, allowing us to call on and manipulate hidden forces in the world around us. This force is considered natural, not supernatural. A mystical oneness means there are no true distinctions between self and others, or between man and nature. Polytheism accepts many gods/goddesses or multiple separate manifestations of one god/goddess or universal force.

Wicca is the name for a contemporary pagan revival of witchcraft. Most witches & Wiccans subscribe to the Witches’ or Wiccan Rede, An’ it harm none, do what ye will. They also believe in the law of threefold, that whatever one does will come back to them three times. They claim these ethics prove that Wicca is good.

Many Names
Paganism (or Neopaganism to denote the modern revival) is an umbrella term which covers witchcraft, Wicca, Druidry, Asatru, Odinism and other pagan movements. Many consider witch and pagan to be interchangeable terms while others disagree. Witches and pagans actually do not even agree on what a witch or pagan really is. There are also disagreements on whether there are differences between Wicca & witchcraft. Witchcraft & Neopagan groups vary widely from each other in rituals, techniques, some beliefs and purposes.

There is no monolithic organization with a stated creed or dogma. In fact, it is precisely this lack of structure that draws many to these groups. These pagan faiths attract very bright people who feel different or special, those who have had bad experiences with mainstream religions, those who feel abandoned by God, free spirits who dislike structure, the rejected (by family or society), rebels, and those attracted to occult or mystical experiences.

Some witches do not call themselves witches, but refer to themselves as Wiccans, white witches, or pagans. Wicca is supposedly an old English term for witch and is used by some as an alternate name for witch. Often witches will refer to witchcraft simply as "the Craft" or sometimes as "the Old Religion." The term 'Earth Religions' is also used for witchcraft and pagan beliefs.

Do not try to categorize or stereotype these people into one group or another, but rather discover what brought them into Neopaganism or witchcraft. There is often a strong emotional need behind the desire to reject the Judeo-Christian God and to embrace witchcraft.

Many Paths, Many Practices
Witchcraft/Wicca is a combination of many beliefs, some of which may include:
Everyone has the divine (or goddess) within.
One should develop natural gifts for divination or occult magic (often spelled 'magick' by occultists).
Divine forces or nature spirits are invoked in rituals.
The Goddess, as either a symbol or a real entity, is the focus of worship.
Nature and the earth are sacred manifestations of the Goddess.
Everyone has his or her own spiritual path to follow.
Rituals and celebrations are linked to the seasons and moon phases.

Meditation, visualization, invocation (calling on forces or gods/goddesses), chanting, burning candles and special rituals trigger a sense of the mystical, thus reinforcing the core belief system. Practicing these techniques over a period of time usually leads to ecstatic or paranormal experiences because 1) of the subjective expectation, & 2) there are forces that will respond.

Pagan groups often combine their beliefs with or base their beliefs on cultural mystical traditions such as Celtic or Norse paganism, the Greek/Roman goddesses, ancient Egyptian spirituality, Eastern shamanism, or Native American spiritual practices. The writer knew one group that was very involved in Native American practices (or what they perceived to be) such as vision quests, sweat lodges, the wearing of a medicine pouch, ritual dancing, having a totem animal, etc.

Witches and Neopagans claim they practice white magic, using their power and abilities to bring about good. They revere nature, support peace, & believe society cannot be at peace if we are out of harmony with nature or are mistreating our mother, Earth (also known as Gaia, the name of a pagan goddess given to Earth). Divination techniques (gaining information & advice through occult techniques & esoteric symbols or omens) such as tarot cards, astrology, runes (stones with symbols connected to Norse pagan religions), the I Ching (from Chinese Taoism), clairvoyant or psychic readings, candle magick & other occult practices are not only common but encouraged as well (though not practiced by all).

There are ritual magicians who cast spells & practice sorcery, but they follow another esoteric system & do not normally align themselves with witchcraft.

Many Symbols
Symbols such as the pentagram and pentacle (5-pointed star used for protection, spells, conjuring, etc.), the Ankh (Egyptian cross-like symbol associated with the worship of Isis, topped by a noticeable loop), the crescent moon (symbol of the Goddess), and crystals (believed to contain healing and spiritual properties) are often worn on jewelry or clothes. The serpent is believed to be originally a symbol of eternal life and female spiritual awakening or power. In Hindu yoga and meditation, enlightenment results from awakening the kundalini, a power known as the serpent power, believed to be coiled at the base of the spine.

The horned god is the male principle of the creative force, perhaps best known in his manifestation as the mythical Greek god, Pan. With the head and torso of a man but the legs and horns of a goat, he is a forest god, a creature of earthy passions, representing sensuality and the untamed woods and wildlife. Pan, when in a wicked mood, is known to bring chaos and disorder. According to myth, Pan liked to scare travelers in the woods, giving rise to the word ‘panic.’ He is the consort to the Goddess, sometimes called the Great Mother or Queen of Heaven.

Many witches revere what is known as the Triple Goddess. She is maiden (or virgin), mother, and crone, the 3 aspects of the Goddess and the feminine nature, often corresponding respectively to the new, full and waning cycles of the moon. As maiden, she is youth, vitality and pleasure. 'Virgin' in this case is not sexual purity but rather that she is not possessed by anyone. The mother aspect is in her prime as nurturer and protector. This archetype is often related to the veneration of Earth as our mother, nurturer and healer. The last stage of crone is considered the culmination of wisdom, representing independence and power. The stereotyped witch of an old woman with pointed chin and wart is, according to witchcraft, a perverted version of the crone. The Triple Goddess is a counterfeit of the Christian trinity, and some witches may even claim that the Trinity was copied from the Triple Goddess.

Witches are not Satanists!
Witches and Satanists are two different groups. Although there can be a crossover for individuals from witchcraft into Satanism, and some Satanists might call themselves witches, these two groups are usually completely separate. The line between the two groups becomes more blurred among those under age 20 who may dabble in and mix several belief systems. However, one should never assume witches to be Satanists! This is quite offensive to witches since they do not believe in Satan. They link Satan with Christianity, which they believe their religion predates, and believe Satan to be an imaginary creation of the Christian church.

Most witches do not accept absolute good or evil. Rather, they often have a New Age worldview which allows for a belief in negative and positive forces that must be balanced, or a belief that the negative can be transmuted into the positive (a basic belief of medieval alchemy). Witches resent Satanists for giving them a bad name. Satanists look down on witches as people who do not have the courage to be true non-conformists, rejecting all moral standards of society, which is the Satanic ideal.

II. A Christian Response:

Witches may claim the Bible does not condemn witchcraft, since they assert that the real interpretation of the Hebrew word for "witchcraft" should be sorcery, divination and those who practice such things.

Response: The Bible does strongly condemn divination and sorcery which are practiced by witches.

They may argue that sorcery is black magic used for evil, and that they practice white magic, magic for good.
Response: The Bible makes no distinction between "good" or "bad" magic or sorcery. All sorcery has the same source and is abhorred by God. (See verses at end of article).

Witchcraft is sometimes a veil for feminist anger. Witches claim that historically witches were women healers who did not submit to the male authority of the Church and were therefore persecuted for their unorthodoxy. They assert that the original religion was centered on the Goddess, and that Christianity, being a patriarchal religion, suppressed the Goddess religions like witchcraft.

Response: Archeological & historical research show that although many cultures worshipped goddesses, the goddesses were consorts or counterparts of male gods. However, it may prove fruitless to debate this point as some feminist historians have asserted otherwise. A better point to make is that although God is Spirit and neither male nor female, He makes it clear in His word that He desires us to think of Him as Father when we come to Him through faith in Christ. Actually, it is the Christian scriptures which speak of women as equals to men as opposed to most other cultural and religious teachings or practices. Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well, an astonishing thing for a Jewish man to do in that day and in that culture (John 4). Not only did Jesus talk to her, but He revealed Himself as the Messiah to her, and she, the immoral woman of the village, was the one to take the news to the men. It was women who discovered the empty tomb. Scriptural passages teach different roles for men & women, but also teach men to love their wives as their own body, and to love them as Christ loves the church, which is pictured as His bride in Scripture (Eph.5: 25,28). There is no Biblical endorsement for male superiority or abuse.

Witches and Neopagans may claim that theirs is an ancient religion which predates Christianity.

Response: Christ, being the Son of God and God the Son, is eternal, which means He has no beginning. It is Christ Who predates all religions (Jn. 8:56-58; Col. 1: 15-17; 1 Pet. 1:19-20; Rev. 1:17; 13:8).

Witches and Neopagans do not usually know the true gospel; their opposition is to organized religion, which they see as an oppressive system of control and rules.

Response: It is true that religion is often just that! But Biblical Christianity is a relationship with the Person of Christ, not a system of rules or rituals, or a philosophy. Many Neopagans & witches have had hurtful experiences in churches. Response: we all fall short of the standard -- which is God (Rom.3:23-24); the standard is not man or other Christians. This is why Christ came (Rom.8:1-4).

Often pagans and witches are willing to have spiritual dialogue. Christians should pray for an open door & remember that dialogue means listening as well as talking. Pagans, like many others, are seeking spiritual answers; they may hide a wounded spirit and heart beneath a confident or worldly-wise exterior. Those in the pagan community need the gospel as much as anyone else. Did not Christ die for them, too?

Don’t be anxious about your responses; the most important thing is to listen to the other person with genuine interest and to see them as Christ would. Also, be prepared to answer their questions gently & with grace (Col. 4:5-6), including objections to Christianity and/or Christian behavior.

Selected scripture verses on divination, sorcery & magic: Ex.22:18; Lev.19:26,31, 20:6,27; Deut.18:10-12; 1 Sam.15:23a; 2 Kings23:24; I Chron.10:13; Is.2:6, 8:19-20, 47:13-14; Ez.13:20-23; Dan.2:27-28, 5:15-17; Acts 13:7-10a, 16:16-18; Gal. 5:19-20; Rev. 22:15

III. For Pagans:

You have probably taken up a Neopagan religion after much reflection. You may have had negative experiences in Christianity, or are just seeking a spiritual connection or fulfillment through a less organized structure. I wonder if you are willing to put aside your negative “Christian” experiences or impressions for a few moments to take a fresh look at Christ. It is possible that you were never taught the truth about Christ, or about what a Christian is.

These things do NOT make a person a Christian:

Following rules to be “good”

Being “good” to get into heaven

Attending church and performing rituals

Praying

Doing good works

Some of these, such as praying, attending church, and doing good works, are a part of being a Christian, but they do not make one a Christian. A person can attend church their whole life, pray, give to others and still not be a Christian. That is because, despite their actions, there may be no Christ in their life.

Christianity is NOT:

An organized religion

Wait, before you jump on the statement that Christianity is not an organized religion, let me say that some who call themselves Christians treat it as such and often themselves believe it. Some denominations are structured in order to administrate the affairs of the church; but that is just the exterior part of it. The shell is not Christianity. In fact, you can have a complex hierarchy and structure and not have Christianity at all, even though it may be called Christian. Who should define what Christianity is? What Christ says is what defines it, and he made it clear that

Christianity IS:

A living relationship with the immanent, transcendent God through his son, Jesus, the God-man.

The Christian God, rejected by many Wiccans/Witches/Pagans as stern and unloving, is a God who made the world in a beautiful and perfect state. There are many places in the Bible where we see how much God cares for his creation, such as these words God spoke to Job:

“Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen? Can you bind the Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?”

And later, God asks Job, rhetorically: “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?” And, God asks, “Who let the wild donkey go free?…I gave him the wasteland as his home, the salt flats as his habitat. He laughs at the commotion in the town; he does not hear a driver’s shout. He ranges the hills for his pasture and searches for any green thing.”

Here is God talking about his creation in an intimate way. God even speaks of goats and the doe giving birth, and the joy of the wild donkeys that God placed in their habitat, outside the “commotion” of the towns. It is this same God who sent Jesus as the bridge between fallen man and God.

Jesus, who claimed to fulfill the law and the prophets, and who came so that we might “have life, and have life more abundantly,” was not just an ethical teacher. He claimed to be THE way, not just show a way. The pain, suffering, alienation, and longings in men and women cause us to search for that healing connection with the divine. Jesus is not an energy or part of nature, something that we must align and re-align ourselves with in order to experience a healing of this alienation. Jesus IS the divine healer, not a mere healing energy or force.

Our alienation comes from the broken relationship with a holy God that results from sin. I know Pagans do not believe in sin. But why then is there a need for the Wiccan Rede? Why encourage pagans “to do no harm,” and to not do magick with wrong intentions? The very existence of the Rede indicates a belief that men and women can do bad things, that we are not good all the time.

God is a personal being who created us, His creatures, as personal beings. Everything in us longs for personal relationships, on earth and beyond. Jesus said that if we open the door to him, he will come in and dine with us, and us with him. That is the picture of an intimate relationship and communion. This communion came at a great cost to Jesus, who took on the sins of the world on the cross, and who suffered beyond our understanding, so that our relationship with God could be healed when we open that door, and rest completely on what Jesus did on that cross.

In other words, the burden is off us to heal that relationship because we can’t do it. Jesus already did it and now all we can do is accept that and believe in Jesus. What does that mean? To intellectually believe that Jesus lived or that he died on the cross? No, it means to believe in his claims, in his work on the cross, in your need for him, and in his bodily resurrection three days later. On the cross, Jesus healed our breach with God; in the resurrection, he conquered death and offers eternal life with God.

The ultimate love is in the Triune God – God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, who are distinct persons in the one Godhead. God sent Jesus who willingly lay his life down for us, and when Jesus ascended, the Holy Spirit comes to those who have trusted in the name of Jesus and transforms from within by the power of God. There is no separation for the believer in Christ from the Triune God; he/she is constantly connected -- indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and going before the throne of God through the mediation of Jesus Christ.

The insatiable thirst and hunger for divine connection is quenched and satisfied forever by he who offers himself as the living water: “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.” (John 6:35)

“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)

Selected Printed Sources: Margot Adler, Drawing Down the Moon (Beacon Press, 1986); Scott Cunningham, The Truth About Witchcraft (Llewellyn, 1994); Jan and Steward Farrar, A Witches Bible (Phoenix Publishing, Inc. 1984/1996 edition); Rosemary E. Guiley, The Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft (Facts on File, 1989); Graham Harvey & Charlotte Hardman, Paganism Today (Thorsons/Harper Collins, 1996); Teresa Moorey, Paganism, A Beginner’s Guide (Headway; Hodder & Stoughton, 1996)

Recommended: Craig Hawkins, Goddess Worship, Witchcraft & Neopaganism (Zondervan Guide to Cults & Religious Movements, 1998); Craig Hawkins, Witchcraft (Baker House, 1996)

The author is MARCIA MONTENEGRO

[BABYBRAZE]

god damn das a big ass post^

[J-DUB]

LOL

[Kemosave]

See, it is true that witches do not believe in nor worship the devil. I am not accusing them of doing this.

God cannot be entirely fathomed by man's finite mind, but God has revealed himself by showing that nature has a Creator, through His word, and through sending Jesus. He is personal, not a force. If we think about how much we long for personal relationships, it makes sense that God is a personal being. He puts this longing into us because he wants a relationship with us.

If Wiccans don't believe in absolute good or evil (and they don't), how can harm be measured? What is the standard?

The Wiccan said: Magic is like the prayer of a Christian to us. God and Goddess, Lord and Lady, Blessed are!

I've heard this a million times and it is not an accurate statement. Prayer is not imposing our will on something but petitioning God and submitting it to His will. This is not what magic does. Prayer is also thanking God and asking for forgiveness - we don't just pray to get something. This is a very crucial point. Most Wiccans don't understand what prayer is and make this critical mistake.

Now Christians do not celebrate pagan holidays just because Christmas is on Dec. 25 or Easter is associated with fertility rites. It is whom you worship that is what counts, not the day it's done on. The day does not matter to Christians. We focus is on who God is, who Christ is and why he came. We understand why he did die on the cross and how that deals with man's shortcomings (ie. sins).

Many things are done in the name of Christ but that does not mean they are right or that it is Christians who are doing them. Also, it does not mean Christ endorses them.

And by the way BROWNANDPROUD: welcome to the forum!

[Panik]

See, it is true that witches do not believe in nor worship the devil. I am not accusing them of doing this.

God cannot be entirely fathomed by man's finite mind, but God has revealed himself by showing that nature has a Creator, through His word, and through sending Jesus. He is personal, not a force. If we think about how much we long for personal relationships, it makes sense that God is a personal being. He puts this longing into us because he wants a relationship with us.

If Wiccans don't believe in absolute good or evil (and they don't), how can harm be measured? What is the standard?

The Wiccan said: Magic is like the prayer of a Christian to us. God and Goddess, Lord and Lady, Blessed are!

I've heard this a million times and it is not an accurate statement. Prayer is not imposing our will on something but petitioning God and submitting it to His will. This is not what magic does. Prayer is also thanking God and asking for forgiveness - we don't just pray to get something. This is a very crucial point. Most Wiccans don't understand what prayer is and make this critical mistake.

Now Christians do not celebrate pagan holidays just because Christmas is on Dec. 25 or Easter is associated with fertility rites. It is whom you worship that is what counts, not the day it's done on. The day does not matter to Christians. We focus is on who God is, who Christ is and why he came. We understand why he did die on the cross and how that deals with man's shortcomings (ie. sins).

Many things are done in the name of Christ but that does not mean they are right or that it is Christians who are doing them. Also, it does not mean Christ endorses them.

And by the way BROWNANDPROUD: welcome to the forum!

Well kemo, I think it's a cop out to say that it only matters who you worship when worshipping on pagan hgolidays. It's kinda half assed if you ask me. Just say, yes, these holidays have nothing to do with Christianity as explained by the bible. These are Pagan holidays that we continue to celebrate becasue they were so ingrained into people at the time christianity that we could not shake them. We now call them our traditions, but they are not ours, they are remnants of our old religions.

As for the responses, again as usual my problem would be that to refute the Wiccan beliefs, you use bible passages. But since bible passages only mean something to Chritians, then your argument means nothing to anyone unless they already believe as you do. It has no bearing on someone with different beliefs. And remember, one of the things Jesus was accused of was sorcery. The power to heal. This seems pretty hipocritical to me. Sorcery in th bible id OK if done by Jesus, but not OK for anyone else? Anyway, I would stand by my opinion that Wicca or ther pagan religions are basically harmless ways to accomplish the same end. Giving thanks for our being here, and everything that is on earth. How you do it I don;t think matters as long as nobody gets hurt, and it makes you feel good. Unfortuneatly, people have and do get hurt byt Islam and Christianity. The main cause for this is the need by both religions to advocate spreading the word. But spreading the word can only be done at the expense of non-beilieversw who are usually forced to accept the word. These Pagan religions usually were much more accepting.

[Kemosave]

Whom and what you worship (ie God) is far more important than what days men decided were good to celebrate (which is really secondary to what is really important).

I will respond to the rest of your post shortly. Peace.

[Anonymous20]

look we can go back and forth all day and night with this.......I AM WICCAN AND LEARNED FROM MY TEACHINGS NEVER, NVER, NEVER TO TELL ANOTHER MAN WHAT HIS BELIEFS ARE, OR WHAT THEY SHOULD BE.

MY RELIGION TEACHES RESPECT......WE ABSOLUTELY NEVER IMPOSE OUR WILL.....SORRY MY BROTHER UT YOU CAN'T GET YOUR "FACTS" FROM HOLLYWOOD MOVIES. NOT EVEN FROM BOOKS YOU FIND IN LIBRARIES OR BOOKSTORES.

IT IS A SHAME THAT ONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE "CHRISTIAN" OR CHRIST-LIKE, CAN JUDGE SO MUCH.

BUT THAT'S YOUR PEROGATIVE. I MAY NOT SHARE YOUR BELIEFS...GRANTED, BUT I RESPECT THEM. I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT TELL YOU WHAT IS TRUE OR NOT TRUE IN YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM BECAUSE I AM NOT CHRISTIAN.

I HOPE ONE DAY YOU OPEN YOUR EYES BROTHER


AS FOR EVERYONE ELSE IT IS MY DUTY AS A TRUE WITCH (AND BELIEVER IN GOD) TO STAND UP AGAINST LIES AND THESE FALSE STATEMENTS........SO I TELL U THIS:
WE WICCANS ARE ONLY ONE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "BLACK" WITCH. WE DO NOT PRACTICE ANYTHING KNOWN AS "BLACK MAGIC". WE DO NOT HURT ANYONE. WE DO NOT IMPOSE OUR BELIEFS ON ANYONE. WE DO NOT JUDGE THOSE OF OTHER RELIGIONS. WE ARE WITCHES,,,,,WICCANS,,,,,,FOLLOWERS OF A NATURAL RELIGION. UNLIKE THE GENTLEMAN SAID IN THE POST ABOVE, WE NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER IMPOSE OUR WILL ON OTHERS.
VOODOO IS NOT WITCHCRAFT. SANTERIA IS NOT WITCHCRAFT. SATANISM IS NOT WITCHCRAFT.

WITCHCRAFT IS A RELIGION ALL BY ITSELF. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY OF THESE RELIGIONS I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR.

WE SAY GOD AND GODDESS FOR ONLY ONE REASON.......BECAUSE WE HONOR THE FEMININE AND MASCULINE ASPECTS OF THE "ALL"...WE UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE THAT THE "ALL" IS ONLY "ONE"...


PLEASE DON'T JUDGE US BASED ON HOLLYWOOD MOVIES, OR ON THE LIES THAT "SOME PEOPLE" SPREAD BECAUSE OF THE DEEP SEEDED HATRED AGAINST ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE........YOU MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. IF IT'S NOT FOR YOU, THEN IT'S NOT FOR YOU.



I AM OPEN TO ANY QUESTIONS


BROWN AND PROUD

[CHRIS]

YOU ARE A WITCH...FAG! ALL YOU GUYS DO IS RUN AROUND AND TAPE NICE RITUALS WHEN THE REAL DEAL GOES ON BEHIND THE CAMERA LENS. NO WONDER YOUR WEIRD. YOU GUYS SACRIFICE PEOPLE. THE HISTORY OF YOUR RELIGION GOES WAY back INTO KILLING AND TRYING TO CONTROL THINGS.

[Kemosave]

Chris: please no namecalling. Bring specifics.

Panik: Thank you for keeping your posts concise and to the point. You know I work, go to college, and do sports so it takes me time sometimes to reply. I'm working on a reply to the rest of your post but having to research something.

BROWNANDPROUD: I'm working on a second reply for you but here's more for the first one:

B&P: “Christians believe in the devil but we don't acknowledge his existence.”
Me: Exactly. If you acknowledged the devil you wouldn’t be Wiccans. You would understand good and evil and that evil seeks to deceive, and that you are being deceived. Your refusal to acknowledge Evil Spirits is also not in tune with the Ancient Paganism that you claim to espouse.

B&P: “We worship the earth. How can nature worship be the devil?”
Me: Because the devil was cast down to the earth. It is his dominion.

B&P: “Seems overly judgmental, and rude to basically call me a devil worshipper.”

Me: I am not calling you that. I am saying that you are being deceived and deceiving others. And there is nothing wrong with being critical in a discussion.

B&P: “And just for the record, all of your religions holidays are based on pagan rituals and holy days.”

Me: You go on at great length to connect Christian holidays and some of the associated symbolisms with paganism. So what? Those holidays now represent Christian events to some Christians – despite some of the confused origins. This does not represent shared beliefs. Christian Holidays are often Pagan holidays that have been Christianized. More has been changed than just the name. Christmas has closer ties to the celebration of the Winter Solstice, and also to the Birthday of the Saturn. Easter is based on the Passover though the word "easter" was derived from the old pagan Saxon festival of Eostre, the goddess of spring, growth and hares (the Venerable Bede being the first to use it in connection with the Christian festival IIRC). If look at the word for easter in other languages, it isn't even close to Eostre (Pascua in Spanish or Paques in French for examples). But this is all secondary. Again it is who and what you place your worship and faith in that is really important.

B&P: “Look at the Native Americans and Africans. They had very basic nature worship based religions, and how many religious wars did they ever have? None that I know of.”
Me: You are right to say that you do not know. Native American tribes and African tribes wars go back a long time and they were CERTAINLY over more than just territory and food. They started wars to get offerings. The New Guinea Headhunters to get heads for their religious rites. The Amazon Indians, the Philistines practiced human sacrifice, Hinduism grew a whole class of people for no other purpose than to use as Human sacrifice, those good pagan Vikings were great family men but used raiding raping and pillaging not only as a means of livelihood but took drugs given to them by the gods to make them supposedly immortal giving us the term bezerk and then there is the burning of young maidens, and those Incan Indians practiced human sacrifice too, Celts did also have you not ready Joseph Campbell? Man Myth and Magic Series?

B&P: "But it is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam that have caused so much war and suffering since they started.”
Me: You need to read up a bit more. People, organizations (including religion/religious leaders), and Governments use all sorts of justifications for what they choose to do and will continue to do so rightly or wrongly until the end of this age. Now you name and number the amount of wars launched by Christians for Christian purposes. Not governments or the Catholic Church or some cult leader. I want some specifics. Also you need to do a much deeper study on the history of Christianity before you can speak on it.

The truth IS that Wicca is barely a century old. Wiccans try to take many of the good parts of the old Pagan religions, and add some new stuff.

B&P: We believe in God as a force that cannot be fathomed therefore we give that force no shape, form, size, color, race, or anything else. It is to us a force that we draw energy and strength from. We see the force as masculine and feminine thru nature. Of course, that is one of the primary differences between the purpose of Christianity and Wicca. The Wiccan God(s) exist for the believers to draw energy and strength from. Wicca is a Self-Centered Religion. Christianity isn't, or at least is not supposed to be. Christianity gave us a bad name because they fear us but we do no harm. Our number one law is: An it harm none do what thou wily.

Me: The Wiccans claim to worship many of the Celtic/Druidic Gods. I wonder if they still would if they actually read the Cattle Raid of Cooley though? This ancient Celtic work portrays the Celtic God of Badb as having woke and killed 100 warriors by whispering to them in their sleep. The entire epic can be read here for your perusal: http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/Cooley/

I could and probably will go on and on about the lack of understanding of your own belief system you show here. That's not being "judgemental" of you though only factual about the belief system you claim. Differentiate between the two.

[Panik]

Hey Kemo, as for any wars in africa or the americas being over religion back in the pagan days, I still think you are wrong. So what they used human sacrifices, they didn;t purposely go to war because the other people believed differently, and it was their mission to change them. This has been the reason for both christian coutnries and islamic countris many times over to go to war, and conquer.


Now as for the Viking comment, I have done a lot of readin on Vikings, and never before heard of drug use for the Berzerker rage. My family has traced it;s origins there nad so there has been a lot f research on this by me and members of the family. The berzerker rage stems from 2 things. Peoples of the area of Viking Origin have a high rate of the double x chromoesome. This is a trait associated with higher than normal rates of violence. They say that even now white proson inmates that are there for violent crimes have a high concentration of this even today. It also can be associated with ADHD. Hyperactivity and more prone to violence. Ont top of this, the only way to get into Valhalla (viking) heaven was to die in battle, so this took away any fear of death. So what you got was a hyper, violent person charging happily to fight even when outnumbered, and once the killing started, there was no stopping it. This just plain made enemies wet themselves becasue it seemed that you couldn;t beat the vikings becasue they didn't care if they died, and if they caught you they would certainly do bad things to you, so most well organized troops would fall apart when faced with these guys. On top of that, they were for whatever reason on average 4 inches taller than most men of the time, so this also helped to describe them as insane giants. When really, they just loved to fight.

[Kemosave]

Panik,

These conversations spread out all over the place but let me see if I can keep up (probably not right now with three nights a week sports, work full time, and my Master's program) but I'll stay plugged in as I can. I'll be getting to the second half of the statement before your last one as that is critical. I also have to read this mound of books in front of me. Try being me with all this work to do this year.. lolol.

Anyways, regarding the Bible: The Bible was compiled by Constantine. Actually, Constantine did order Eusebius of Caesarea to have 50 copies of the Bible made at state expense. That was a tremendously expensive undertaking in the 4th century, and Eusebius was glad to do it.

However, Constantine had nothing to do with the settling of the Canon. That was a process that took several centuries, but was finally formalized in the fourth century. It was not settled at a Church council at all. In the east there wasn't any dispute after Athanasius listed the canon in his Easter letter of 367AD. In the west, it was settled at regional councils of Hippo, (393AD) and Carthage, (397AD).

But this does not mean that there was no recognized Bible until then. In fact, Paul's epistles had been collected and were circulating in bound copies by around 100AD. The first harmony of the FOUR gospels was written around 150AD by a man named Tatian, who was a pupil of Justin Martyr. It was known as the Diatesseron. So the Gospels, Acts, and Paul's epistles were being bound together in the early second century.

The apocryphal gospels, acts, apocalypses and so forth were known in the early church...but were not given canonical status. Sometimes a church leader here or there would say one of them was scripture...but they never acheived anything like universal authority. This was all settled long before Nicea.

The canonical disputes that kept it from being settled were mainly over James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Hebrews and Revelation. The core of the NT was settled at a VERY early date.

Regarding your assertion "Christianity is a melding of pagan beliefs and ideas along with Judaism." I don't have the time to address "Christianity" as an entire system of beliefs properly today because I have to rack servers and go to practice tonight but the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus is most certainly not a melding of any such beliefs. I'm 200 pages into N. T. Wright's latest masterpiece and, if his argument is sound (and i see no reason so far to doubt this), the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ was wholly unlike anything that either pagan or Jewish circles had ever known or professed. Be specific and give me your sources so I can verify them.

2. Regarding your presumption that the Bible is ineffective to argue the case for Christ. Show me where the Bible is wrong in the key areas of the existence of Christ, the works of Christ, and the words of Christ. Be specific and support your presumptions and assertions with documentation please.

Brown & Proud, regarding your claim of "I am Wiccan and learned from my teachings never ever to tell another man what his beliefs are or what they should be."

You say in aother paragraph "It is my duty as a true witch (and believer in God) to stand up against these lies and false statements" Well, which is it Mr. Wiccan? Do you let everyone have his beliefs or do you not? How is it that you have a "duty" to "stand up to" another's beliefs yet you also claim to not tell another man what his beliefs should be??

Regarding your claim that Wiccans hurt no one; The simplicity and subjectivity of this creed creates a rather large problem. How is the word "harm" defined and who defines it? If it is up to the individual Wiccan to determine if something is harmful, they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and long as they do not think they are harming anyone?

Know that any pantheistic religion including Wicca begins with a radical disassociation of the creator with the creation. The image of creation that I espouse is that of the potter and the clay. This is wholly inappropriate to the mind of the pantheist, be he Wiccan or Vedic or Shinto.

The image to the pantheist is that of the dancer and the dance. The dancer is in every part of the dance of creation. There is nothing truly outside of God in this view. Thus worshiping a grove of trees or human sexuality or a rainstorm makes perfect sense.

So the real issue here is one of confusing the gift with the Giver. We receive the gift and rejoice in it, however it is the Giver that we are in love with. A bride rejoices in her diamond ring, but it is her husband who she adores. Not the other way around (ie dismissing the giver and being in love with the ring [sic]). This is called idolatry and mirriam-webster has it defined as "the worship of a physical object as a god."

Peace love gotta go work..

[Panik]

Only on for a second here, but specific sources for the resurrection? If you want, I'll get them, but there were dozens of religions before christianity with similar resurrection stories, it was nothing new. Zaroastrianism for one, I believe also the religion of egypt, Isis maybe? Not sure, I still have my mythology books here, just found them the other day from my classes. I'll get you more examples, but I know there are quite a few that had very similar resurrection stories that predate jesus. As for the bible having information on jesus's life, yes it does. But the Illiad has infomation about Hector and Achilles. Did they exist, yes, is most of the story true? Yes, was jesus the son of god? I doubt it, was Achilles invincible except for one spot on his ankle? Doubtful. That is what I mean. The bible is a mix of history along with exagerated story telling, just like the Illiad. It doesn't mean that everything is wrong, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. You can not use it as a 100% infalable means to dicredit anyone else in my opinion. It is not the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

[Kemosave]

As for the responses, again as usual my problem would be that to refute the Wiccan beliefs, you use bible passages. But since bible passages only mean something to Chritians, then your argument means nothing to anyone unless they already believe as you do. It has no bearing on someone with different beliefs. And remember, one of the things Jesus was accused of was sorcery. The power to heal. This seems pretty hipocritical to me. Sorcery in th bible id OK if done by Jesus, but not OK for anyone else? Anyway, I would stand by my opinion that Wicca or ther pagan religions are basically harmless ways to accomplish the same end. Giving thanks for our being here, and everything that is on earth. How you do it I don;t think matters as long as nobody gets hurt, and it makes you feel good. Unfortuneatly, people have and do get hurt byt Islam and Christianity. The main cause for this is the need by both religions to advocate spreading the word. But spreading the word can only be done at the expense of non-beilieversw who are usually forced to accept the word. These Pagan religions usually were much more accepting.

Your assertion the Bible is not an important historical manuscript is false. I was surprised you even said that. As previously discussed you do not exclude the historical manuscripts we call the Bible just because you have a personal bias against it when discussing the life of Jesus. In that light, let's see what it actually does say rather than what some think it says. The Bible clearly distinguishes sorcery and divination from the power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible forbids sorcery (2 Cor 33:6, Gal 5:20, Rev 18:23) and divination (Lev 19:26, Deut 18:10, and 2 Kings 21:6, etc.), and always associates them with evil. Jesus was accused of divination but asserted that His was the power of God (Matt 12:24-30) and that Jesus told those who cast out demons outside His power that they were themselves evil (Matt 7:22-23). The point is that just because you can perform healings or cast out demons that doesn't make you like Jesus. It is the source of power that determines righteousness, not the outcome. This is clearly shown throughout the Bible. Remember, for example, the confrontation between Moses and the Magi in the presence of Pharoah or Elijah versus the false prophets? You always find a clear distinction.

Jesus did not use sorcery to heal. He healed because he had the power of God since he was God the Son. God is the giver and creator of life, so Jesus is able to heal just because of who he is. He needs no magic. In fact, Jesus is the source of life and light, he is the light of the world, and this gives him the ability to overcome darkness and disease.

I can understand the Wiccan view that they wish no harm. Christianity does not wish harm, either. No authentic Christian forces anyone to believe in Christ; this is impossible because people cannot make a person a Christian. "Conversion" is due to the mysterious working of the power of the Holy Spirit in a person's mind and heart. We cannot do that. Our job, as a command from our Master, Jesus, is to share our faith and tell the story of who Jesus is and why He came. The rest is up to God.

And history clearly shows us that pagan cultures were quite warlike. Very warlike in fact. Regarding your continuing assertion that religions have caused persecutions and death throughout history in the name of God argument... The quick (and true) answer to that is that it is errant humans, not God, who committed the atrocities in the name of God. You can draw the analogy even to if a "wiccan" went around in the name of "Wiccan" slitting people's throats, would that be conclusive proof in and of itself that Wiccan was evil? What if people who called themselves Wiccan did evil things or lied or anything that he thinks Christians have done in the past? One can't attack legitimately blame God and the gospel because those He's offering redemption to act sinfully, hijack for political purposes, etc.. especially since Christ came to die for even them!

Read this: http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/ap ... almurd.htm

[Panik]

If there were a nation of Wiccans who attacked another nation and slit thousands of throats because those peopel did not believe as the Wiccans do, then your analogy would make sense. I think you're reaching here. You know very well Kemo that what I say is true, and is even happening as we speak. Yes pagan cultures were warlike, but for the most part they were accepting. They did not usually force their gods onto others, or if they did, they did not force you to stop worshipping your original gods. It was not anything like the muslims or christians/catholics where there is no middle ground. You attack a country because they are nonbelievers and they don't "count", they are "savages" becasue they don't believe in your god. Then once you conquer them, you force the survivors to accept your god and punish them for worshipping their own. This is not only fact, this has happened over and over and over, and for you to deny it would really lower your standing in my eyes.


Now, as for the bible as a historical document, like I said. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, there are things in the bible that are no doubt factual. There are others that may be related to fact, but altered by either exaggeration or wrong dates and placement in context. Then there are other things that are outright false and nothing more than a fairy tale. So, like I said it is much like the Illiad and the Odyssey by Homer. There are lots of facts there, but mixed in with fiction, and sometimes it is very hard to draw the line. And to use either one as a end all argument on someone elses beliefs I think is arrogant, and a little ignorant. You alreay agreed in another post that some of the apastles have varrying stories, even if my so much as for one to include something and the other to exlucde something from telling the same stories. This alone proves that there can be things either left out, or added that may or may not have happened in the stories related to Jesus. And just as you can ask my homies about a certain story about me and get 5 different versions, especially if asked 20 years from now, or if you ask one of their nephews 50 years form now. You see my point? To someone who does not blindly believe that every word of the bible is truth and from gods mouth to the paper, your arguments are not valid unless backed up by another source. I've said it before, but even the Enquirer won't print something without a 2nd source to verify the story, and in this, the bible comes up lacking in several areas.

[Panik]

Oh, and just because Jesus said that his powers were not sorcery because they were the powers of god does not make it so. Again, here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Just because the bible says that jesus said this oes not mean that Jesus really healed anyone. And if he did, just because he said it doesn't mean that if he did perform miracles that they were through the power of god. That they were done through sorcery is every bit as believable to a non christian. Do you see where I'm coming from? You can quote him all day long, but if the person you are talking to doesn't believe him to be the son of God, then none of his quotes matter, and they don't help your arguments against any other religion being wrong. This is the major problem that non-christians have with christians. The arrogance of being right all the time when you are only right in your own minds. None of it is provable, yet you would talk down to someone because they don't have the same belief as you. You are telling this man that what he thinks is wrong because of something that someone who might have been the son of a god that might exist might have said 2000 years ago, maybe. If it was remembered word for word and written correctly and traslated right, and again this all depends on your belief that this man was the son of a certain god. This all hangs on a thread, and is in no way a powerful enough argument to completely down a mans beliefs. Your argument wouldn't even be allowed in a court of law. It's all based on hersay. You couldn't convict me of a misdemeanor with the type of eveidence that you have that there is a god and that jesus was his son.

[Kemosave]

We're going round and round on a couple of these points. I've already addressed the second source argument you keep bringing up. I'm just repeating myself on that point. I have to work but will be back with a reply for you Panik. The only thing God is trying to convict is your heart. Peace.

Read 1. http://www.rae.org/bibref.html
2. http://www.apologeticspress.org/bibbul/ ... -01-43.htm