Surenos love old Black soul music why?

[femun]

"Truth be Told" Crips and Bloods raised the bar, set the standard on how modern streetgangs are defined. It's unfortunate the war between C's and B's and the death count involved reached unprecedented heights, but they established the blueprint. If you think some mischievous juvenile delinquents among a 1940's car club or Christian social/ sports club even compares to what the B's and C's put down, you are sadly mistaken, and naive. To try to reinvent these social clubs into streetgangs in order to establish a pre-history that even rivals the C's and B's is ridiculous too. There's no comparing El Jardin, Maravilla, Soto, Garehty Lomas, Canta Rana, Opal, Temple Street, La Rana, Bassett, Black Diamonds, Chino Sinners, Casa Blanca, Hazard, and a dozen MORE to what the C's and B's put down.

In the context of history, I don't think most groups outside of Chicanos buy into Chicanos being the oldest gang. Maybe it's some rallying point for some Chicanos... idk. Most observers would ask if they "Chicanos" are "the oldest living gang" than what makes them that? Who are their enemies?? Maybe the oldest living gang boast is indicative of a gang that's not active at all, but playing it safe, and not engaging any REAL enemies?

The B's and C's made their rep not because of tattoos, clothes, or because they happen to live in the same hood longer than any other gang. They made their rep because they went at it hard! Each side was a force to be reckoned with. A gang is only as tough as its enemies. If the enemy is weak and obscure so is your gang. The C's made the B's and the B's made the C's!!! When these two gangs went to war, it was on a whole other level. They went at it HARD... NO-HOLDS-BARRED!!!

That's their rep Mayuga... it had nothing to do with tattoos, clothes, or whatever other shit you talking about.

You seem like a smart guy but your highly misinformed. you need to do some reading, specifically these two books.


http://www.amazon.com/Do-Die-Leon-Bing/ ... d_sim_b_54
http://www.amazon.com/Gangs-Los-Angeles ... 770&sr=8-8#_


The book "The Gangs of LA" is as real as it gets as far as info goes. The B's and C's get credit only cuz the media finally got involved and put their exploits on the front page. Everybody thinks hard core gang banging and drive bye's started in the 70's but the truth is it was going on decades before by Chicanos in east LA. If you don't believe it READ THE FYUCKIN BOOK all the info is there.

[mayugastank]

fenum


The 1980s-1990s cant be denied as the most murderous decades of gang warfare across the United States. Most of it happened in Los Angelos and for their numbers ( 500,000 African Americans ) compared to 7 million latinos in and around Los Angelos counties.....the amount of gang warfare and murders committed by blacks and on blacks is staggering. I went by percentages. Chicano gang wars are older and have lasted WAY longer.....but the murders of African Americans in those decades was off the charts. Latinos outnumber blacks in these counties by HUGE margins and even today our murder rates are closer then they should be ESPECIALLY in gang warfare. If their were 7 million African Americans and close to 100,000 black gang members in these counties their would be in excess of 3,500 murders that were gang related a year SOLELY by African Americans. Instead their is under 600 a year with both latinos and blacks combined!

Fact: Black gang violence and black gang warfare kills more people per capita and by percentages. By huge margins.
Fact: Whether or not its all gang related is unknown.

The crips and bloods got their fame for being dramitcally different then any other black gang across the country-and for the star roles/movies and much more media propanganda. African Americans are dispersed throughout the United States. Until recently Chicanos weerent seen or known in the South and East Coast and Mountain States and MIdwest. Blacks had their home bases in the East and South.

What I am saying is that Caucasians were much more intimate with African Americans and African American crime then they were to the small dot on the big map of America which is Los Angelos.


By the way just bought the book you suggested .........and will start a thread sooner or later discussing it.

[ViciousRidah]

@Mayugastank- If you look at my clarification addressed to ViciousRidah, you would see that we are talking about the impact gangs from LA and Chicago have made overall. In particular, as it relates to other cities adopting those particular gangs. Although, when you see red/blue you see Californias (2) largest gangs Nortenos and Surenos, mostly everyone else in this country relates it to Bloods/Crips so on. I'm sure that you will agree ,that you tend to see Bloods/Crips/Folks/Brothers in almost every state. However, You can't say the same about the Surenos. I kw that this is futile and no matter what anyone says you will still have the same view, but I thought it was necessary to note.

I think some of the distortions and misunderstanding maygua has, may have been purported by some individuals on this same website, when you have people saying the modern day gangsta culture in America is a fusion of LA gangbanging and NYC Hip Hop style its no wonder why they are a lot of people confused.

First of all hip hop portrays stuff that was from the street ,you can't say just because you saw NWA sagging on TV dressed in all black ,didn't mean they started the whole gangsta image TREND,where do you think NWA got the stuff from?Where they grow up and what they been around in they hood, therefore that trend did not start there.

The B's and C's made their rep not because of tattoos, clothes, or because they happen to live in the same hood longer than any other gang. They made their rep because they went at it hard! Each side was a force to be reckoned with. A gang is only as tough as its enemies. If the enemy is weak and obscure so is your gang. The C's made the B's and the B's made the C's!!! When these two gangs went to war, it was on a whole other level. They went at it HARD... NO-HOLDS-BARRED!!!

That's their rep Mayuga... it had nothing to do with tattoos, clothes, or whatever other shit you talking about.

Yes and no.

B's and C's are both competitive enemies but the dedication of both is what keeps them both going because of the damage that has been inflicted on both sides.By each other.


But if a gang has a weak enemy doesn't mean it necessarily dies out.

If a gang is weak and it has an enemy that is strong than that gang would definitely die out.

I also think a gang that lasted long should be respected no matter if they did not have a real fearsome enemy or not.

[perongregory]

tre is right and is saying something I said to mayuga pgs ago, when it comes to actual bangin the blacks put the shit on the map and still are.

Chicanos do have the oldest modern hoods in the country but the cholo nowadays gets his start get down starting with the pachuco who was influenced by blacks. No one can say the ragtag groups with hardly any style are this true varrio gangsters mayuga is trying to portray.

blue and red did not come from surenos and nortenos to crips and bloods. That was in the prison system with grown men, the crips were in south central and were young teenagers.

[perongregory]

and the driveby didn't start with blacks or mexicans but better yet an Irish gangster named machine gun kelly from the 20's or 30's I forget.

[Tre]

You seem like a smart guy but your highly misinformed. you need to do some reading, specifically these two books.

http://www.amazon.com/Do-Die-Leon-Bing/ ... d_sim_b_54
http://www.amazon.com/Gangs-Los-Angeles ... 770&sr=8-8#_

The book "The Gangs of LA" is as real as it gets as far as info goes. The B's and C's get credit only because the media finally got involved and put their exploits on the front page. Everybody thinks hard core gang banging and drive bye's started in the 70's but the truth is it was going on decades before by Chicanos in east LA. If you don't believe it READ THE FYUCKIN BOOK all the info is there.

No offense femun but I’m more interested in reading actual books published during that period (20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s), rather than reading a book from someone viewing the past through the prism of “gang banging” today.

In fact I challenge you to find any books published by a Chicano during that period that actually uses the term “gang banging” you won’t because that popular term was coined by C’s & B’s much later to describe killing a nigga you don’t know for living on the wrong side of the street.

Like I said C’s and B’s not only changed the entire game, but changed and redefined “gang banging”… and just to prove it, here you are using their vernacular… and don’t even know it.

[Tre]

Only one who is delusional would look to 500,000 blacks living in Los Angelos county instead of the 37.5 million plus African Americans living outside Los Angelos, as a frame of reference for what blacks do, wear, drive, sing, eat and pray at!!!

There was a VH1 Soul Train documentary that talked about their move from Chicago to LA, and how blacks in LA had their own unique style, dance and customs, outside of blacks elsewhere. The executives of Soul Train wasn't sure if the move was smart, they said what the kids in LA was doing was so alien from blacks elsewhere that there was concern blacks outside LA may not relate, but that's when the show took off!!! 37.5 million plus blacks (as you put it Mayuga) tuned in just to check-out the styles, fashions and dance moves of the 500,000 blacks living here in Los Angelos. Chicano gangs was not a factor... so to jump decades later and claim blacks cant do anything independent of Chicanos is just ludicrous!

Just because blacks in Cali are unique (stand out) from the pack (other parts of the US) doesn't mean Chicanos somehow, someway must be responsible...lol

BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>those colors and that style of dress appropriated by Crips and Bloods was used throughout the SOUTHWESTERN UNITED STATES by chicano .........it was a chicano uniform used from place to place.

Your perspective on LA Crips, Bloods and even Surenos is unusual Mayuga... you make it seem like "LA gangs" are competing in a fashion show or something?? Maybe being a tattoo artist you just view gangs cosmetic... or superficially like that.

The truth is most gangs adapt their style of dress with the times... we can go back and forth about what gang was wearing what at what time, but most styles are retroactive. The only gangs that seem stagnant in their dress and style seem to be Mexican gangs. Prime example is "white tees" ... black, white, Mexican gangs was wearing that shit in the 50's. Blacks are quicker to abandon and adapt new styles, like in the eighties all those designer shirts, Gucci, Louie Vuitton, Polo, etc. To be honest blacks in those days (LA Blacks) looked down on the "white tee" wearing Mexican as low class! But again fashion is retro… so when black gangs move back to wearing the white tee, suddenly Mexican gangs are shouting foul, that's our steelo now, you stealing our shit...lol

[Tre]

... Chicanos do have the oldest modern hoods in the country but the cholo nowadays gets his start get down starting with the pachuco who was influenced by blacks. No one can say the ragtag groups with hardly any style are this true varrio gangsters mayuga is trying to portray.

blue and red did not come from surenos and nortenos to crips and bloods. That was in the prison system with grown men, the crips were in south central and were young teenagers.

No doubt! Funny isn't it... red blue?? Just the fact Chicanos have numbers now... by default anything that the Chicano do in masse becomes associated as a Chicano thing. If Chicanos en masse be smashing lowlows, then lowlows become associated with Chicanos. If Chicanos en masse wear flannels, dickies, or white T's, then these items become a "Chicano thing" regardless if other groups used these items before the Chicano appropriation of it. It's juvenile for any Chicano to look around and ask why other groups are wearing his items (looking like Chicanos), when these things existed before the Chicano appropriation of it.

[mayugastank]

Tre-

I like the way you debate. But I see flaws in your arguments. How and why did African Americans from Los Angelos differ from black America? How and why do chicanos from chicago-call themselves kings/disciples/lords? The chicanos from chicago copied the styles of New Yorks transplanted Puerto Ricans. They formed gangs TOGETHER-but the chicanos didnt have the numbers to infuse their styles into the mix-at first.

Not only do blacks from Los Angelos differ from blacks in USA -but they are completely ALIEN. By comparision chicanos from place to place had a real similiar getdown--Texas actually originated all the styles of tattooing-gang structure and clothing worn by their East Los Angelos cousins.

Yeah.....I am big into trends/fashions/art. Its what I do. I aint a banger but I know my modern art history. You said before that chicano or me soecifically, has latched onto the tattoos......well its not merely tattoos, its clothing/shirts/boards/rap album covers/skater designs etc. You do know that chicano artwork is worldwide? that what everyone considers gangster was done many decades before it hit the streets of America? That eminem/tyga/lil wayne/tupac/bow wow and many others are sporting the inkwork of Chicanos? This form of art originated amongst my people in a foreign land. Its not Mexican. Its Mexican American.

How does anyone actually believe-that the 1% of African Americans werent going to be affected by their surroundings? 86 million African descendants landed in brazil. 3x the amount of blacks who live in America. Theyve given us a ton of music. Of course they would be touched on.

But to lay claim to anything that is gangster culture in Los Angelos? when just down the street in Oakland ----African Americans werent getting down in Cholo fashion? So Ill entertain teh thought that both crips and bloods and nortenos and surenos BOTH SOMEHOW COINCIDENTALLY came up with the same colors. Okay. It just happened. But why were blacks dressing the same as : driving the same as: inking (although most blacks probably got inked by mexicans!) and even writing the same as: CHICANOS.

Doesnt that seem a stretch? Now blacks would just love to say its WestCoast---we just get down different. Well WEST COAST is merely an attempt to label California from Coast to Coast ...........when in reality a few miles down the road in Oakland blacks were not remotely similiar to African Americans from Los Angelos. To claim it isnt because of Mexicans and Mexican American gangs is a bold faced LIE.

[Silencioso]

/\/\/\/\/\/\
good post

[Silencioso]

The "good comment" post was for Tre.

[mayugastank]

... Chicanos do have the oldest modern hoods in the country but the cholo nowadays gets his start get down starting with the pachuco who was influenced by blacks. No one can say the ragtag groups with hardly any style are this true varrio gangsters mayuga is trying to portray.

blue and red did not come from surenos and nortenos to crips and bloods. That was in the prison system with grown men, the crips were in south central and were young teenagers.

No doubt! Funny isn't it... red blue?? Just the fact Chicanos have numbers now... by default anything that the Chicano do in masse becomes associated as a Chicano thing. If Chicanos en masse be smashing lowlows, then lowlows become associated with Chicanos. If Chicanos en masse wear flannels, dickies, or white T's, then these items become a "Chicano thing" regardless if other groups used these items before the Chicano appropriation of it. It's juvenile for any Chicano to look around and ask why other groups are wearing his items (looking like Chicanos), when these things existed before the Chicano appropriation of it.

Okay RED/BLUE. 2 simple questions (1)are crips and bloods older then Surenos and Nortenos? (2) were Surenos and Nortenos using RED/BLUE as gang identifiers before crips and bloods?

Wouldnt it seem an easy argument to have being as Surenos are 60 years or more older then crips? and Nortenos are 20+ years older then both crips and bloods? Nuestra Familia started in the 1950s. La EME a few years after them. They really went to war in the early 1960s. But they both had established their own flags/symbols and colors as early as the 1950s.

Now why anyone would doubt the intellectual integrity of those questions is beside me. ESPECIALLY when not merely did we have the same flag colors/but the same graffiti writing/drove the same cars/dressed identical except for a few changes here and there/threw up gang signs/.....................its quite a few COINCIDENCES.

Remind YOU: Blacks werent doing those things outside of Los Angelos..........Chicanos WERE. In Texas-Arizona-New Mexico-Nevada-California-Colorado. Anywhere young Mexican Americans were they looked to hold something resembling culture....Fact is we locked onto what we could in this foreign land. In the process we created a style of underground identity/art that is everywhere and used by everyone. For you or anyone to say we didnt invent or do it first or that our Artwork is NO BIG DEAL is RACIST and "wo is me" should that EVER be said about African Americans and JAZZ-GUMBO-SOUL FOOD-RNB-RAP-DISCO-GOSPEL-EAST COAST HIP HOP FASHION-THE ORIGINALITY OF BLACK ATHLETES-etc....................

The very essence of all that shit makes up the African experience in America unless im mistaken and those things started in Zimbabwe-Nigeria-Ethopia-Sudan-South Afrikka?

[Silencioso]

Blue and red are common colors for gangs, Mayuga. I don't think Crips and Bloods ripped off Surenos and Nortenos. If Sur wore purple and Norte wore yellow and Bloods and Crips did the same, that would be suspicious! But red and blue are basic colors. Remember, originally gang colors were repped primarily through bandanas/rags. Red and blue are the easiest colors to get.

[femun]

You seem like a smart guy but your highly misinformed. you need to do some reading, specifically these two books.

http://www.amazon.com/Do-Die-Leon-Bing/ ... d_sim_b_54
http://www.amazon.com/Gangs-Los-Angeles ... 770&sr=8-8#_

The book "The Gangs of LA" is as real as it gets as far as info goes. The B's and C's get credit only because the media finally got involved and put their exploits on the front page. Everybody thinks hard core gang banging and drive bye's started in the 70's but the truth is it was going on decades before by Chicanos in east LA. If you don't believe it READ THE FYUCKIN BOOK all the info is there.

No offense femun but I’m more interested in reading actual books published during that period (20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s), rather than reading a book from someone viewing the past through the prism of “gang banging” today.

In fact I challenge you to find any books published by a Chicano during that period that actually uses the term “gang banging” you won’t because that popular term was coined by C’s & B’s much later to describe killing a nigga you don’t know for living on the wrong side of the street.

Like I said C’s and B’s not only changed the entire game, but changed and redefined “gang banging”… and just to prove it, here you are using their vernacular… and don’t even know it.

Read the book you'll be happy you did.

I'll do you one better. B's And C's Changed the game. Chicanos invented the game.

[perongregory]

Wrong whites invented the game.

[PrinceTheReal]

Wrong whites invented the game.

who knows maybe indians did

[femun]

Read both those books you'll see how wrong you are. In "Doe or Die'' which is about B's and C's the author who happens to be back fully aknowledges and puts it in writing that the mexican cholos were first on the scene and the B's and C's were simply emulating.


STOP BEING SCARED READ THESE FUUKKING BOOKS SO YOU CAN SEE HOW FULL OF SHITE YOU ARE.

[policyking52]

Read both those books you'll see how wrong you are. In "Doe or Die'' which is about B's and C's the author who happens to be back fully aknowledges and puts it in writing that the mexican cholos were first on the scene and the B's and C's were simply emulating.


STOP BEING SCARED READ THESE FUUKKING BOOKS SO YOU CAN SEE HOW FULL OF SHITE YOU ARE.

You make it seem like the Bloods and Crips were the first Black gangs. That shows how limited your knowledge. I read that book you speak of and I have to go back to it because what you quote sounds out of context and even if he does say that doesn't mean its correct and body can say anything but do they offer facts to support their claim. But before the B and C you had black gangs such as the Slaussians and the Gladiators and you had other black gangs before them. As I said before the Bloods were formed by T Rodgers a member of the Almighty Black P. Stone Nation from Chicago.

[femun]

You make it seem like the Bloods and Crips were the first Black gangs. That shows how limited your knowledge. I read that book you speak of and I have to go back to it because what you quote sounds out of context and even if he does say that doesn't mean its correct and body can say anything but do they offer facts to support their claim. But before the B and C you had black gangs such as the Slaussians and the Gladiators and you had other black gangs before them. As I said before the Bloods were formed by T Rodgers a member of the Almighty Black P. Stone Nation from Chicago.

Are you refearing to the Sportsman Park Boys,Figueroa Boys,Hoover Groovers,Businessmen,Aves,Baby Aves,Dartanians. These gangs had their own style completley differen't than Chicano gangsters same goes for the Early B's and C's. It wasn't till about 1973 that the B's and C's adopted the Chicano Style.


Do you know anything about the history of LA? Prior to "White Flight" blacks in La were only allowed to live in Watts The rual part of Compton and the Central ave area. It wasn't till the late 1950's to early 1960's as a result of White flight that they were able to live elsewhere. So with this information you can figure the age of the black gangs that were around before the B's and C's. So figure that these gangs pre date the b's and c's by about 15 years.

That shows how limited your knowledge

Is that enough knowledge for you? Anytime you want a history lesson let me know.

[mayugastank]

policyking"

You make it seem like the bloods and crips were the first black gangs"........



Who did that? Heres what bloods and crips are......(1)one of the 4 largest black gangs in America. (2) Extremely different then any black gangs prior( 3) Totally different then any black gang across America.

Yes their were black gangs before Crip/Blood but not a one holds a candle in age to the chicano varrios of East Los. What Fenum and I are saying is that modern street gang culture is infused with many many things started and done by chicanos first. To look at a video like GTHANG or REAL MOTHAFUCKIN GS and DENY DENY DENY that it wasnt and isnt a total rip off of chicano street culture is a bold LIE.

Fact is outside of Los Angelos their werent black gangs like the C/B.........even in the very same state of CALIFORNIA! Go to Oakland and PEEP what and who black gangs are across the entire USA.

(1) short lived (2) NEW YORK INFUSED HIP HOP STYLED..............even the panthers are more representative of black gangs then C/B were.

Ive spoken to OG crips and bloods and they dont even deny at ALL -that they took the whole cholo look to form their gangs. They said it second hand. " yeah eses upside East Los looked cool....the hats and tatts and shit, so we did what they did but gave it our own swag".........

Those words were spoken to me by several OG crips/bloods. Its almost an understatement to them as if "DOESNT EVERYONE KNOW THAT?"

Ive done things blacks do.....I used to sport bald fades/ love the music/ . Its America its what we do. But dont sit here and try lying like some crips and bloods arent a ripoff......the entire look America believes they had was what blacks did to the cholo style!

[mayugastank]

You make it seem like the Bloods and Crips were the first Black gangs. That shows how limited your knowledge. I read that book you speak of and I have to go back to it because what you quote sounds out of context and even if he does say that doesn't mean its correct and body can say anything but do they offer facts to support their claim. But before the B and C you had black gangs such as the Slaussians and the Gladiators and you had other black gangs before them. As I said before the Bloods were formed by T Rodgers a member of the Almighty Black P. Stone Nation from Chicago.

Are you refearing to the Sportsman Park Boys,Figueroa Boys,Hoover Groovers,Businessmen,Aves,Baby Aves,Dartanians. These gangs had their own style completley differen't than Chicano gangsters same goes for the Early B's and C's. It wasn't till about 1973 that the B's and C's adopted the Chicano Style.Do you know anything about the history of LA? Prior to "White Flight" blacks in La were only allowed to live in Watts The rual part of Compton and the Central ave area. It wasn't till the late 1950's to early 1960's as a result of White flight that they were able to live elsewhere. So with this information you can figure the age of the black gangs that were around before the B's and C's. So figure that these gangs pre date the b's and c's by about 15 years.

That shows how limited your knowledge

Is that enough knowledge for you? Anytime you want a history lesson let me know.

What Ive been saying ages ago!!!!!!! There are 2 very distinct underground American styles..........Chicano ( WHAT SOME WOULD LIKE TO LABEL WESTCOAST) and AFRICAN AMERICAN ( EAST COAST ) ..........exchanges back and forth across the world. But make no mistake the ragging/lowriding/gang flashing/graffitied up/chicano artwork/tatted down/simply clean look is a Southwestern United States MEXICAN AMERICAN THING.

That look is FAR FAR more prevelant in White Americas fashion then is East Coast hip hop. Blacks have been mislabeling our American experience for a very long time...............

Its shear envy. Because outside of me MAYUGASTANK .........their arent any chicanos calling them on it. Fact is MOST CHICANOS believe blacks just knew .....that TUPAC ripped off the THIG LIFE tattoo from MI VIDA LOCA inkwork across the Abdominals mexicans set. Most chicanos have no clue as to how much blacks believe they had any hand at all in anything at all of the West Coast getdown.

If blacks brought ANYTHING to Los Angelos it was the southern and eastcoast cultures were they dominated. The jazz clubs/speakeasys/cool slang/the East Coast beatboxing/addida wearing/puma sportin break dancing NEw York hipster.......that whoel genre mashed and transformed Los Angelos. But leave whats ours OURS> outside of me chicanos dont know/dont show and dont care whats going on in the hood"/.....doughboy from Boyz in the Hood

[mayugastank]

Blue and red are common colors for gangs, Mayuga. I don't think Crips and Bloods ripped off Surenos and Nortenos. If Sur wore purple and Norte wore yellow and Bloods and Crips did the same, that would be suspicious! But red and blue are basic colors. Remember, originally gang colors were repped primarily through bandanas/rags. Red and blue are the easiest colors to get.

black and white are the most common colors for handerkerchiefs...........so why didnt they wear those colors? Also why did they coincidentally dress identical/drive identical and graff identical along with get inked in the cholo fashion?

[mayugastank]

... Chicanos do have the oldest modern hoods in the country but the cholo nowadays gets his start get down starting with the pachuco who was influenced by blacks. No one can say the ragtag groups with hardly any style are this true varrio gangsters mayuga is trying to portray.

blue and red did not come from surenos and nortenos to crips and bloods. That was in the prison system with grown men, the crips were in south central and were young teenagers.

No doubt! Funny isn't it... red blue?? Just the fact Chicanos have numbers now... by default anything that the Chicano do in masse becomes associated as a Chicano thing. If Chicanos en masse be smashing lowlows, then lowlows become associated with Chicanos. If Chicanos en masse wear flannels, dickies, or white T's, then these items become a "Chicano thing" regardless if other groups used these items before the Chicano appropriation of it. It's juvenile for any Chicano to look around and ask why other groups are wearing his items (looking like Chicanos), when these things existed before the Chicano appropriation of it.

Perongregory"

with one stroke of the keyboard you erased 40-50 years of history PRE ZOOTSUIT of the cholo. Tre says that most of these varrios shouldnt be considered varrios because they were social clubs who really became "gangs after the 1950s and really hit down in the 1960s. Id have to say I somewhat agree that YES........they probably werent banging like today-but they were gangs---just more so in the 1920 frame of mind were kids rolled dice/told storys on their stairwell and beat up other neighborhood kids who happened to stroll onto "GERAHTY STREET or WHITE FENCE hood."

I mean to blotch out 40 years of history pre zootsuit? During the zootsuit riot 600+ chicano kids were picked up for being gangsters. 600 in East Los Angelos..........that is a shitload even TODAY. I find it highly SUSPECT to believe they didnt have their own culture by the time of the zootsuit..........it just isnt well publicized because it wasnt on the level of LA COSA NOSTRA ...........Adults who fought over power in a secret society!.................nah man, these were barrio kids whose parents didnt have squat and who lived the ganster life from ages 12-21 years of age and tehn joined their parents in the American workforce flipping burgers and picking fruits. But they did have affininty for those varrios because theyve kept them active to this very day in the year 2010.................two thousand twenty ten

[Silencioso]

I doubt the founders of the Crips, Pirus, Brims etc. knew anything about Surenos and Nortenos. These were young guys that had never been to adult prison. Many lived in areas that were 90%+ black. How much would they know about NF and la eMe?

[mayugastank]

I doubt the founders of the Crips, Pirus, Brims etc. knew anything about Surenos and Nortenos. These were young guys that had never been to adult prison. Many lived in areas that were 90%+ black. How much would they know about NF and la eMe?

So in your estimation it was coicidence that Snoop/Dre/Ice/Easy E/ dressed similiar to cholos.......and it was also a coincidence that outside of Los Angelos thee other 99% of all African Americans nationwide didnt?

SUSPECT.

The red/blue irregardless was done by SUR/NORTE many decades before C/B if that was a coicidence it was one of the most " random happenings" since Motezuma predicted the downfall of the aztec empire to the VERY DAY.

[Tre]

Tre says that most of these varrios shouldnt be considered varrios because they were social clubs who really became "gangs after the 1950s and really hit down in the 1960s. Id have to say I somewhat agree that YES........they probably werent banging like today-but they were gangs---just more so in the 1920 frame of mind were kids rolled dice/told storys on their stairwell and beat up other neighborhood kids who happened to stroll onto "GERAHTY STREET or WHITE FENCE hood."

I mean to blotch out 40 years of history pre zootsuit? During the zootsuit riot 600+ chicano kids were picked up for being gangsters. 600 in East Los Angelos..........that is a shitload even TODAY. I find it highly SUSPECT to believe they didnt have their own culture by the time of the zootsuit..........

hmmmm... 600+ Chicano kids picked up for being gangsters?? Is this your criteria for a 'gang' Mayuga, how many kids are arrested?? There were over 3,000 blacks arrested during the civil rights era in Birmingham, but I wouldn't label them a gang. Chicano kids didn't label themselves gangs in the 20's, 30's, and 40's... so why insist on calling them that?? The Sleepy lagoon defendants was too socially active and politically astute to be labeled a 'gang' it would be more appropriate to classify them as 'clubs'

As far as Chicanos having a PRE ZOOTSUIT culture here in LA, prior to the civil rights era EVERYONE dressed similar http://www.westadams-normandie.com/lapl/Latinos.php ..of course every group has their own nuances, and customs specific to them, but as far as outward appearance, everyone was trying to fit into the American mainstream, the exception to this was the 'Zoot Suit' that's why it caused such a stir. It just didn't fit into what was mainstream at that time "being American" it wasn't until after the civil rights era that you really started seeing different groups branch off, creating their own dress codes and styles.

[Tre]

The red/blue irregardless was done by SUR/NORTE many decades before C/B if that was a coicidence it was one of the most " random happenings" since Motezuma predicted the downfall of the aztec empire to the VERY DAY.

Red and blue are very common colors, I've seen pics of black slaves proudly displaying these 'war' colors (red, blue), the most famous being "William Lee" George Washington's manservant. Different cultures, and people appropriate these colors and attach their own meaning to it... just like 'YOU' when you suggest anyone appropriating these colors must be 'taking something' from Chicanos?? The truth is these colors just pop up intermittently, and depending on the culture using them, the colors and their meaning become reinvented, hence prison officials and guards may distribute and associate these colors in one way (to keep the peace), while crips and bloods may attach a totally different context and meaning (war).

So in your estimation it was coicidence that Snoop/Dre/Ice/Easy E/ dressed similiar to cholos.......and it was also a coincidence that outside of Los Angelos thee other 99% of all African Americans nationwide didnt? SUSPECT.

Much of what you call the 'cholo look' is all in your head Mayuga, fashion is retro man. Case in point, I've seen pics of black youth in Long Beach (51st Street and Florence Avenue), circa 1900 wearing knee-high white socks with knee pants (khaki). If you saw those same black youth sporting that same style of dress in the streets of LA today, you'd swear up and down that they were "in part" trying to look like a cholo or trying to steal the cholo look.

[femun]

Much of what you call the 'cholo look' is all in your head Mayuga, fashion is retro man. Case in point, I've seen pics of black youth in Long Beach (51st Street and Florence Avenue), circa 1900 wearing knee-high white socks with knee pants (khaki). If you saw those same black youth sporting that same style of dress in the streets of LA today, you'd swear up and down that they were "in part" trying to look like a cholo or trying to steal the cholo look.

Good try but you fell short.

Get over it you lost the argument.

There is nothing wrong with emulating a style that you are fond of. All I'm asking for is a little aknowledgement as to where and who the style came from.

[mayugastank]

Its actually quite weird to deny that the ENTIRE WESTCOAST getdown is nothing but a rip off of Chicano styles from Texas. I mean if we would go so far as to even label chicanos from Los Angelos 2nd string. The whole pachuco-old school varrio -dickies-pendletons and inkwork didnt originate here it originated in Texas.

White Fence was a Texas gang and many more chicano hoods came transplanted from Texas when Tejanos began making their move into Califas early 19th century. To say White Fence got it start in the 1920s is hsitorically inaccurate as that varrio was started in Texas.

Its lunacy. I bet in reverse labeling black hip hop styles as NOT BLACK would cause an uproar. As it has done many times in the past! Not simply in these thread but on National Television with blacks labeling entire cultures imitators!

Lets get real.........crips/bloods arent NOTHING but imitators. Yeah they changed up a few things here and there..........but these guys would actually have us believe that outside of Los Angelos NO BLACK gangs were close to even remotely similiar to the sagging dickied/pendleton wearing/lowriding/gang throwing/graffit wall banging/inked up in cholo fashion Blacks of the rest of America.

WANT TO TRACE THE ROOTS OF A FASHION ? follow its origins. Black and grey fine line tattooing as done by the world NOW-had never been seen anywhere in the world outside of the Southwest Chicano convict population. Not in Brazil-Africa-Europe-NOT EVEN in MEXICO. It was an artform borne out of oppression by young chicanos who BRAZENLY fought to retain their manhood. It was rebellious to be inked up in the 1950s.....it was tantamount to econimical suicide to be Mexican American and inked up.

Tre~ and others would like to say that it belongs to everyone but we have the proof in the PHOTOS. Sure I understand the embarrassment. It bugs me as well to see chicano rappers throwing in MOTOWN with some CALO words.........everytime I hear LIL ROB I want to just bury my head and die. Hes phony-fake-goofy- and has poorly/embarrassingly imitated black art (MUSIC).

Blacks dont want to feel that way about the ONLY OTHER AMERICAN BLACK CULTURE> The lowriding/gangster/inked/flannel wearing/stacking and crip walking 360 degree TURNAROUND from the East Coast gold grill/beatboxing/breakdancing/crew having/puffy jacket and boot wearing brother from NYC. That same styled brother is present EVERYWHERE blacks reside EVERYWHERE. The camoflague wearing-rap battling-hustla. Thats what America IS.

Americas fashion is a mix of the 2. The chicano of the Southwest and the black of the East Coast. Blacks cant handle it ...........because truth be told it would wipe out a HUGE PERCENTAGE of their "demeanor and history" to give up West Coast African American styles!!

[mayugastank]

REAL FREAKING SIMILAR .....................REAL FREAKING SIMILAR...................Something smells fishy round here........bloods/crips and norteno/sureno............hmm..................real freaking SUSPECT.................question which one of the 2 is older? which one wore the colors first>?

[femun]

Its actually quite weird to deny that the ENTIRE WESTCOAST getdown is nothing but a rip off of Chicano styles from Texas. I mean if we would go so far as to even label chicanos from Los Angelos 2nd string. The whole pachuco-old school varrio -dickies-pendletons and inkwork didnt originate here it originated in Texas.

White Fence was a Texas gang and many more chicano hoods came transplanted from Texas when Tejanos began making their move into Califas early 19th century. To say White Fence got it start in the 1920s is hsitorically inaccurate as that varrio was started in Texas.

How do you base your theory on the WF Texas connection? Calo and Zoot suits definitely came from Texas mostly El Paso but the cholo style such as dickies,pendletons,White Tee's oversized pants etc. is all 100% So.Cal which came about after WWII

In the year 1900 the Mexican population in Los Angeles was 2000 and it didn't start growing until the Mexican revolution(1910-1920)started and the Mexicans that made it grow were pretty much all from Texas but by the late 1940's The El Paso influence wasn't all that strong.

[perongregory]

zoot suits are black, just get over it, mexicans gangstrs wouldn't have no hip style if they didn't get that laid back zoot suit style from blacks the original hipsters.