Why the racial tension in southern California?

[crm]

Why is it that most of the racial tension is in southern California? Why isn't there nearly as much racial tension in northern California? The norteños seem to get along just fine with blacks..why is this?

[femun]

What racial tension in So.Cal are you asking about?

[crm]

The so called racially motivated killings on the street..sure not every hispanic gang has shown that they want to cleanse the streets of all blacks..but it has been discussed on here that some hispanic gangs..whether it be the whole gang or particular members in the gang have shown a negative disposition towards black gangs and in some instances against blacks in general..is that common with hispanic gangs in northern California?The rivalries in the prisons must also be mentioned..the EME's alliance with the AB and their mutual rivalry with blacks behind bars..doesn't the Northern structure get along with the their black counterparts? Why the racial segregation in southern California prisons and not in northern California?

[MCD]

In Norcal you'll see alot less racial animosity between blacks and mexicans, and many mexicans emulate the black bay area culture, while some keep the chicano style. In some major cities like Oakland or San Francisco you may hear "black n brown" which describes the loose union between the two races.

That's why you got these bay area music labels like "Thizz Latin" or collabs with alot of latin and black rappers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlSEXS_noCs

This is mostly a regional thing that applies to those certain neighborhoods in the bay from what I'VE seen. In other places brown and black gangs may co-exist but gang loyalty is the #1 priority.

So that said, there's by no means a truce or universal peace between blacks n nortenos or mexican gangs, they funk on each other alot. The fact that there's so many norcal cities that blend black and latino culture is probably the reason there's less division compared to socal, where there's more cities that are almost 100% latino and immigrants maintain that definitive and separate culture from everyone else. And it boils down to differences in gang beef, "if you're not like me you're an enemy" type of mind-set. People tend to stay around other people like them.

Plus, many latinos hold a prejudice to blacks, perceiving them as lazy, arrogant, etc.. so it only makes sense that some gangs would extend that prejudice into full blown racism.

[crm]

Good points MCD. But don't blacks and hispanics live close to each other in southern California as well? I'm sure there are 100% hispanic or black neighborhoods but arent there mixed neighborhoods as well? Why is it that there is a sharing of cultures in the north but not in the south?

[Quepolo3]

Plus, many latinos hold a prejudice to blacks, perceiving them as lazy, arrogant, etc.. so it only makes sense that some gangs would extend that prejudice into full blown racism.

@MCD-That's an interesting point. When you say many Latinos, what particular nationality are you referring to? Or are you saying all of them. Do you think this that previlant in just the eyes of mostly Mexicans or do you see that in other latino cultures such as El Salv., Pureto Rican, Argentina, so forth?

[femun]

Plus, many latinos hold a prejudice to blacks, perceiving them as lazy, arrogant, etc.. so it only makes sense that some gangs would extend that prejudice into full blown racism.

@MCD-That's an interesting point. When you say many Latinos, what particular nationality are you referring to? Or are you saying all of them. Do you think this that previlant in just the eyes of mostly Mexicans or do you see that in other latino cultures such as El Salv., Pureto Rican, Argentina, so forth?

I don't know about Puerto Ricans but just about all the other hispanic groups typically feel that way. As far as drug dealing goes and most other illegal businesses, the unwritten rule is to never deal with blacks.

[Quepolo3]

I don't know about Puerto Ricans but just about all the other hispanic groups typically feel that way. As far as drug dealing goes and most other illegal businesses, the unwritten rule is to never deal with blacks.[/quote]

@ Femun- Appreciate the insight. What do you think is the origin of these views? Has this been planted by the sayings of white America, and past predjudices or is it because of their own dealings with black people.

[StillNoScript]

many latinos hold a prejudice to blacks, perceiving them as lazy, arrogant, etc.. so it only makes sense that some gangs would extend that prejudice into full blown racism.

Many blacks hold the very same prejudices toward Latinos.

[StillNoScript]

Good points MCD. But don't blacks and hispanics live close to each other in southern California as well? I'm sure there are 100% hispanic or black neighborhoods but arent there mixed neighborhoods as well? Why is it that there is a sharing of cultures in the north but not in the south?

I think culture is more regionally influenced than by individual neighborhoods, as much as neighborhoods like to think they're exclusive in some way. There is no part of the bay area that has as many Mexicans or Chicanos as Los Angeles...especially Mexicans, anymore. I mean you can take the entire South bay area...San Jose, Morgan Hill, Gilroy, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, even South Fremont and EPA, basically the region of the bay area with the most Mexicans and Chicanos, and you don't come close to matching the population of East Los Angeles, Montebello, Whittier, Pico Riviera, Norwalk, Paramount, San Gabriel, La Puente, El Monte, Pomona, Baldwin Park, Fontana...and PLENTY, PLENTY more. Everyone one of these cities and regions in and around LA has at least a 70% Latino population, some of them 90%. You can add the central coast towns like Salinas and Watsonville and even the more northern bay area Latino areas like south city, Mission, Excellsior, Decoto, Fruitvale and Hayward to the overall the Mexican/Chicano bay area, and you still don't even come close to LA's Latino population. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing the Mexican to black ration in LA is probably 10 to 1, while the same ration in the bay area is more like 3 to 1. That could play into the cultural differences between the Chicano bay area and Chicano L.A.

[StillNoScript]

lol. "ratio", not "ration". good grief.

[femun]

I think culture is more regionally influenced than by individual neighborhoods, as much as neighborhoods like to think they're exclusive in some way. There is no part of the bay area that has as many Mexicans or Chicanos as Los Angeles...especially Mexicans, anymore. I mean you can take the entire South bay area...San Jose, Morgan Hill, Gilroy, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, even South Fremont and EPA, basically the region of the bay area with the most Mexicans and Chicanos, and you don't come close to matching the population of East Los Angeles, Montebello, Whittier, Pico Riviera, Norwalk, Paramount, San Gabriel, La Puente, El Monte, Pomona, Baldwin Park, Fontana...and PLENTY, PLENTY more. Everyone one of these cities and regions in and around LA has at least a 70% Latino population, some of them 90%. You can add the central coast towns like Salinas and Watsonville and even the more northern bay area Latino areas like south city, Mission, Excellsior, Decoto, Fruitvale and Hayward to the overall the Mexican/Chicano bay area, and you still don't even come close to LA's Latino population. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing the Mexican to black ration in LA is probably 10 to 1, while the same ration in the bay area is more like 3 to 1. That could play into the cultural differences between the Chicano bay area and Chicano L.A.

Good point.

[femun]

I don't know about Puerto Ricans but just about all the other hispanic groups typically feel that way. As far as drug dealing goes and most other illegal businesses, the unwritten rule is to never deal with blacks.

@ Femun- Appreciate the insight. What do you think is the origin of these views? Has this been planted by the sayings of white America, and past predjudices or is it because of their own dealings with black people.

It's definitely because of their own dealings with black people.

[Quepolo3]

It's definitely because of their own dealings with black people.[/quote]

That's interesting because I would think that if it was based on their own dealings, they would look at the individual. To catagorize a whole race based on your experience with a few is not very bright, in my oppinion. I'm glad my Mexican homies got to know me before forming an oppinion. Over 15 yrs. later and 2500 miles apart, we are still tight.

[femun]

It's definitely because of their own dealings with black people.

That's interesting because I would think that if it was based on their own dealings, they would look at the individual. To catagorize a whole race based on your experience with a few is not very bright, in my oppinion. I'm glad my Mexican homies got to know me before forming an oppinion. Over 15 yrs. later and 2500 miles apart, we are still tight.

Your mistaking criminal activities with basic friendship, apples and oranges my friend.

[perongregory]

its not just dealings it's in the culture coming from the countries. And that seed of bigotry, or whatever you wanna call it goes back to the Spanish and Portuguese Colonizers.

[femun]

its not just dealings it's in the culture coming from the countries. And that seed of bigotry, or whatever you wanna call it goes back to the Spanish and Portuguese Colonizers.

What do Spanish and Portuguese Colonizers have to do with black criminals robbing everyone they do business with?

[perongregory]

I'll answer that after you answer why does almost everybody including. Other latinos think Mexicans are dirty, theiving, traecherous people.

[perongregory]

The point for all you stupid people is that u can say BS and lie to yourself about honor and principle like alotta latinos especially Mexicans like to but the truth is if ur a fuckin criminal your a criminal, and if ur a criminal out to make money all that BS Femun is speaking is only for the homeboys once they leave only the torpedo idiot homeboy isnt out there getting his feria everyone else isgettin money and if it comes yo dealing w Tyrone cuz he got the scratch best believe Juan's on it.

[femun]

The point for all you stupid people is that u can say BS and lie to yourself about honor and principle like alotta latinos especially Mexicans like to but the truth is if ur a fuckin criminal your a criminal, and if ur a criminal out to make money all that BS Femun is speaking is only for the homeboys once they leave only the torpedo idiot homeboy isnt out there getting his feria everyone else isgettin money and if it comes yo dealing w Tyrone because he got the scratch best believe Juan's on it.

A question was aked and I answered it and you obviously didn't like the answer. There's no need to get worked up.

[perongregory]

I didn't type that out of anger with that post I sought to get u to a point where I didn't have to go back and forth. So we've proven blacks rob everyone who deals with them so all Latinos don't want to deal w them because they are morally ethical criminals but we've also provven that latinos talk masa about each other as well and still deal w blacks. So either Latinos are huge hypocrites, your story about blacks is a big generalizations, Latins are punks, or that prejudice comes from something/somewhere deeper.

[femun]

I didn't type that out of anger with that post I sought to get u to a point where I didn't have to go back and forth. So we've proven blacks rob everyone who deals with them so all Latinos don't want to deal w them because they are morally ethical criminals but we've also provven that latinos talk masa about each other as well and still deal w blacks. So either Latinos are huge hypocrites, your story about blacks is a big generalizations, Latins are punks, or that prejudice comes from something/somewhere deeper.

I don't want to go tit for tat so I shortened your post.

I didn't type that out of anger with that post I sought to get u to a point where I didn't have to go back and forth. blacks rob everyone who deals with them so all Latinos don't want to deal w them because they are morally ethical criminals

They don't deal with blacks cuz they've been robbed or know somebody who's been robbed by blacks. You might not like the answer but it's the truth.

Im sorry if your feelings got hurt but thats the way Maxicans and most other Latino feel. Hypocritical or not thats just the way things are.

[MCD]

[quote="crm"]Good points MCD. But don't blacks and hispanics live close to each other in southern California as well? I'm sure there are 100% hispanic or black neighborhoods but arent there mixed neighborhoods as well? Why is it that there is a sharing of cultures in the north but not in the south?[/quote]

Not much else except the things i mentioned such as the greater separation of culture in the south due to latino immigrants. In Norcal many latinos still hold their culture but more and more youth are identifying with black culture in my opinion so there's less polarization.

[quote="Quepolo3"]
@MCD-That's an interesting point. When you say many Latinos, what particular nationality are you referring to? Or are you saying all of them. Do you think this that previlant in just the eyes of mostly Mexicans or do you see that in other latino cultures such as El Salv., Pureto Rican, Argentina, so forth?[/quote]

I'm Mexican so I see it most amongst Mexicans, and this is regards to normal citizens, not gangsters. The few puerto ricans Ive known hold no prejudice against African Americans. Plus certain Latin cultures have very small presumptions about each other, like Mexicans and Puerto Ricans or Argentinians, but it usually exists within sports.

[quote="StillNoScript"][quote="MCD"] many latinos hold a prejudice to blacks, perceiving them as lazy, arrogant, etc.. so it only makes sense that some gangs would extend that prejudice into full blown racism.[/quote]

Many blacks hold the very same prejudices toward Latinos.[/quote]

I feel those kinds of prejudices are reactionary, due to tensions caused by latinos to be honest. To me the general attitude of blacks is that they don't give a shit what you are. I know there's guys like Katt Williams that got accused of being racist to one of his latino viewers at a show and some black gangs will discriminate against latinos but like I said it seems reactionary.

[crm]

MCD but isn't a lot of racism reactionary? I'll give you an example..lets say a white dude goes to jail and gets fucked with by blacks..and he learns to hate blacks..isn't that reactionary? It being reactionary lessens the impact of it?

[MCD]

[quote="crm"]MCD but isn't a lot of racism reactionary? I'll give you an example..lets say a white dude goes to jail and gets #%@& with by blacks..and he learns to hate blacks..isn't that reactionary? It being reactionary lessens the impact of it?[/quote]

Just to be clear I meant prejudice held by blacks towards latinos is a reaction to pressure from latinos, I don't think most racism is a reaction anymore, because most of us are raised and exposed to stereotypes, so we always pre-judge. I could be wrong, but it seems like a huge majority of ethnic tensions between blacks and latinos were instigated by latinos, and thats comin from a mexican-american.

I see less black gangsters using racial slurs towards latinos than the other way around. The few blacks I encounter that ARE prejudiced towards mexicans or salvadorians or whatever were often subjected to their discrimination. I think the "don't care" attitude by blacks comes from the fact that they don't have a relevant cultural identity that originates from a certain country and thus they are less alienated. Their identity is African-American and many can trace their American roots back several generations, whereas latinos tend to be nationalistic and still hold a strong cultural identity since many are 1st generation immigrants or children of immigrants.

Put it this way, how many latinos you see flying their country's flag, compared to blacks? This isn't a disrespect to black culture at all, I'm saying that it's an extra barrier that divides us.

[femun]

MCD but isn't a lot of racism reactionary? I'll give you an example..lets say a white dude goes to jail and gets #%@& with by blacks..and he learns to hate blacks..

Definitely reactionary. Stereotypes are just a reaction to a bad experience with someone of another race.

Most races develope negative stereotypes and are hated for legitimate reasons and not just because their "different".

[crm]

But racism is all encompassing..you just lump everybody into your mold and dont see exceptions. Take the example I gave..that same white dude might end up hating all blacks, even though the ones who fucked with him were statistically a tiny fraction....of the whole population. If he gets a black neighbor, regular dude..he might still hate him, even though the guy has done nothing to him. The people of the other race that mess with you tend to be a minority within that race. Most people in general tend to just live and let live.

[MCD]

[quote="crm"]But racism is all encompassing..you just lump everybody into your mold and dont see exceptions. Take the example I gave..that same white dude might end up hating all blacks, even though the ones who #%@& with him were statistically a tiny fraction....of the whole population. If he gets a black neighbor, regular dude..he might still hate him, even though the guy has done nothing to him. The people of the other race that mess with you tend to be a minority within that race. Most people in general tend to just live and let live.[/quote]

You're right that someone who is racist would hold the same view of ALL people from a certain race, and I think in your example, for that white male to become racist towards blacks, he would have to have frequent encounters over a long period of time with that small minority that heckles him. And I'm saying this from experience. When I was in high school I moved to a predominantly white city and was one of literally a handful of latinos in my school. I got jumped or fought with alot of white kids just for being brown, but I had the clarity to know not all white people were like that, and I made alot of friends that were white and never developed prejudice or racism against whites.

Racism is more deeply rooted. A few negative interactions with another race aren't enough to make a reasonable person racist, even if the people were racist towards YOU. Either you are indoctrinated with prejudice by your parents/family/peers as you grow or you are repeatedly subjected to racism over a long period of time (years) and you become hardwired to have prejudice towards the offending race, like the black and brown youngsters in the hood who learn to hate each other. But the second method is more rare, because it proliferates from gangsters, which constitute a small fraction of a particular racial population.

[femun]

Racism is more deeply rooted. A few negative interactions with another race aren't enough to make a reasonable person racist, even if the people were racist towards YOU. Either you are indoctrinated with prejudice by your parents/family/peers as you grow or you are repeatedly subjected to racism over a long period of time (years) and you become hardwired to have prejudice towards the offending race, like the black and brown youngsters in the hood who learn to hate each other. But the second method is more rare, because it proliferates from gangsters, which constitute a small fraction of a particular racial population.

Your example is too extreme unless your speaking abot neo nazi/KKK members. Racism is not deeply rooted, all it takes is a few bad run ins with a certain race and your opinion is formed but that doesn't mean your gonna hate every single person of that race or even hate that race but you are gonna have some low expectation of people of that particular race.

Every race has it's fair share of scumbags and those scumbags are the reason for the hatred.

[MCD]

[quote="femun"]
Your example is too extreme unless your speaking abot neo nazi/KKK members. Racism is not deeply rooted, all it takes is a few bad run ins with a certain race and your opinion is formed but that doesn't mean your gonna hate every single person of that race or even hate that race but you are gonna have some low expectation of people of that particular race.

Every race has it's fair share of scumbags and those scumbags are the reason for the hatred.[/quote]

But that's my point, I've never heard of "select" racism where you discriminate against one group of a race instead of another. If you're racist, you discriminate against everyone within that race. I don't think someone who has the common sense to distinguish between different factions of a race and subsequently discriminates against a single faction can be called a racist by definition, because a racist sees his own as superior in every aspect.

Sometimes I hear people describe their views on blacks by saying they don't mind a particular group (law-abiding, moral black citizens) but the loud, thuggish, "ghetto" blacks are the ni***ers. I don't even think that qualifies a person as being racist, rather it's just the observing person affirming the stereotype based on the individuals that happen to fit into it. And the accepted policy has always been that thoughts are prejudice, while ACTIONS are racism.

Someone who makes the above statement about blacks shouldn't be lumped into the same category as the Avenue gangsters that hunted and murdered an innocent and law-abiding black man. Someone who develops racist tendencies as a result of a few encounters (whether its neo-nazis or black panthers) isn't what I would call a reasonable mind unless, like I said, that was the sole nature of their encounter with the offending race and it happened over a long stretch of time. The reason is because you've had few or NO positive experiences with that race.

[StillNoScript]

I feel those kinds of prejudices are reactionary, due to tensions caused by latinos to be honest.

Nope. There are a lot of black people who proactively view Mexicans as lazy and arrogant, not as a reaction to anything Mexicans have done. They've had such views of Mexicans all along. Of course, they're wrong. Just as Mexicans who view blacks in such a way are wrong. But it would be a naive and mislead belief that Mexicans view blacks as lazy while blacks only hate Mexicans because Mexicans don't like them. Just as with all competing ethnic groups in impoverished situations, both sides have their preconceived views of each other, good and bad, right from the get go.

[Quepolo3]

I feel those kinds of prejudices are reactionary, due to tensions caused by latinos to be honest.

Nope. There are a lot of black people who proactively view Mexicans as lazy and arrogant, not as a reaction to anything Mexicans have done. They've had such views of Mexicans all along. Of course, they're wrong. Just as Mexicans who view blacks in such a way are wrong. But it would be a naive and mislead belief that Mexicans view blacks as lazy while blacks only hate Mexicans because Mexicans don't like them. Just as with all competing ethnic groups in impoverished situations, both sides have their preconceived views of each other, good and bad, right from the get go.

I think that MCD said this earlier, but this is typically because it's being taught. Part of the reaction of the bad experience is to share your views with those who are within your circle. If you have people telling you that your bad experience with certain individuals is just that, a bad experience, then you won't see the same racisim as when someone says they are all that way. Growing up in the south in the 70's and 80's I did not have one single latino friend or even knew anything about the hispanic culture. I had no preconceived notions about them, nor any prejudices. When I moved to L.A. I met some great latino people and some bad ones. Overall, my experiences were good, and I love the latino culture and community. There are black people who have done bad things to me and my family, but I don't say I hate all black folks. I love my community and my people! It's unfortunate that many have been brainwashed, and are too ignorant to accept everyone for themselves, and know that it's ok to be different. Cervezas on me mi hermano!