How does payment works in organized crime groups?

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 6:12 pm

I never said the Rizzuto group is not the most powerful single organization in Canada. I doubt if any single group can match them except for maybe the Hell Angel's BC chapter. And I really doubt that any Albanian single organization matches the Rizzuto family as Albanians are known to operate in small cells based on mistrust.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 6:19 pm

CheGuevara wrote:Go back and read you're examples. What do they amount to?

I did go back and read them. NONE of them prove your bogus claim of 10-15% as the usual cut from a soldier to a captain. Why can't you just admit you were wrong? Why is that so damned hard for you?

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affa ... n&id=90575
Three members of the same Kosovo family are currently on trial in Switzerland accused of operating one of Europe's largest heroin wholesale operations.
Prosecutors say the 69-year-old father and his two sons, aged 42 and 28, used their base in the southeast European country to import 1.5 tons of heroin from Turkey for sale elsewhere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3340921.stm
Luan Plakici admitted facilitating the illegal entry into the UK of between 50 and 60 young women and seven counts of people trafficking. Plakici made so much money he began building a string of luxury homes for himself across Europe.
He also splashed out on the car of his dreams - a Ferrari Spider - but just 24 hours after he bought it he was arrested in a raid on his home.

First, thank you for the links. Though they are both simply specific examples of what we already know - that the Albanians are heavily involved in drug trafficking and human trafficking/prostitution in Europe.

Why are the Asians mentioned first in nearly all reports. Why is it that Asians are mentioned the most in all reports.

Because they are one of the major OC groups in Canada. That's why.

You read a report here or there and go by things like which group is mentioned first or which group has the biggest paragraph written about them and then think you have a clue what's going on.

Never said Albanians should be included in Eurasian organized crime. That is what you said. I said many times, officials have called Albanian gangsters, Eastern European gangsters because of their ignorance of Albanian ethnicity.

That's just it, officials in either the U.S. or Canada usually DON'T refer to Albanians among the Eastern European groups.

Of course you haven't heard of it. You haven't heard of a lot of stuff BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANY #%@&#%@ RESEARCH!!!!! Don't you get it? You're knowledge is minimal at best. Just because you haven't heard of something means jack shit. But you're too stupid to realize this.

I'm not the one going around making stupid statements like the Albanians "could" match the Italians in Canada! You are! Everytime I or somebody calls you on your BS, you simply try to turn the tables on them rather than take responsiblity for the crap that you spew out.

I wasent talking about Italians in general. You switched the subject from the CC alone to the Italians in general and found a way to half lie about the CC.

Yes, you were talking about the Italians in general. You said that you thought it could be possible that Albanians could match the Italians in Canada. Nevermind you have no evidence to think this way whatsoever. Just wishful thinking by you as usual. Azure then brought up the Rizzutos in particular and you quickly latched onto that. What exactly was my "half lie" about the Caruana-Cuntreras? I've given you the facts about them. They are not overrated in Canada. They, as well as the Rizzutos, as well as the Sidernos, are far more powerful than any Albanian groups you will find in the country. And speaking in general, the Italians are far more powerful than the Albanians.

What research have you done? You didnt know a damn thing about Albanian organized crime in Canada.

I've done enough research to not make such a stupid statment as Albanians could match the Italians in Canada. The Albanians are an emerging group in Canada and there is relatively little known about them, especially in comparison to other groups. All you have done is found them cited in a couple reports and read about a few groups in articles here and there. And suddenly you are prepared to say they "could be" as powerful as the Italians, who have been there for over half a century.

So in other words, I have to do your own research for you yet again? Just like I did with the Italian's percentage of cocaine in Europe? I'm done doing your leg work for you. If I thought it would do any good, I would. But you'll just move on to another topic and make some other stupid statement with no basis and then try and put the burden on others to prove you wrong.

Sure. Call it leg work. Even though it is the basis of you're BS.

That's exactly what it is. It does like this -

Johnny: (Insert stupid and baseless statement here)

westside: Um, that's not true. Do you have any evidence to support that?

Johnny:
Response #1 - (simply repeats himself)
Response #2 - Sure it's true. Prove it's not.

It's like if you said the moon was made of cheese. If someone asked you to provide proof of this or reason for your thinking, you would simply say "Hey, prove me wrong."

The Italians are not the most notorious gangsters in the world. They are the most well known but not the most notorious. Both the Russians and Chinese gangsters surpass them in terms of wealth and power. Debatable between them and the Albanians.

Your grasp of the English language is weak. Look up the word notorious. It has to do with notoriety, i.e. how well someone or something (like an OC group) is known. At least in the western hemisphere, the Italians are by far the most notorious or well known.

Then you choose to change the subject to wealth and power, once again saying the Russians and Chinese surpass them, but also once again providing no evidence. And now it's debatable between the Italians and Albanians?!!! LOL! Even you yourself many times in the past have said that the Albanians don't match the Italians on a global scale. But now all of a sudden they do?! Seriously Johnny, give it up. You are dead in the water and everything you say is just BS.

What I mean by open and bright light [as if you didnt know, you just simply wish to complicate things] is that the Italians label themselves as the Rizzuto Family or the Cuentra Caurana or the Ndrangheta while the Albanians do not do this almost ever making them very difficult to see. The Albanians stay low of the radar while the Italians call themselves soldiers, captains, bosses, etc... and speak in English. The FBI does not have the proper material to combat AOC in America or Canada because they lack Albanian Agents and can not be as mobile as Albanian criminals. They also lack the education to label Albanian criminals as Albanian because of the ignorance of Albanian surnames.

The Rizzutos and Caruana-Cuntreras no more named themselves than the LCN families in the U.S. did. Those are names given to them by law enforcement and the media. And there you go again trying to pretend like you know what the FBI lacks or does not know.

You know this is true. I am not going to prove to you something you know very well.

Has this become the extent of your arguments? Simply declaring what somebody else knows and then failing to support your own claims? You really have nothing left to say but are too gutless and arrogant to admit it.

They are extremely over rated IN CANADA itself. They are/were a very big network worldwide but the activities they were involved in Canada were not as big as the activities in other areas of the world.

Once again, what evidence do you have of this? Just because the clan has been active in other parts of the world, doesn't mean they are "overrated" in Canada. You've obviously read almost nothing about the group in Canada or anywhere else. You are simply trying to say they are overrated because you feel it will help your case that the Albanians could be as strong as the Italians there overall. Sorry pal, I see right through your BS and it won't work.

Not that many have been written about them being as most people do not have enough information on it to write a book over 100 pages about the Albanian mafia but there are books out there by people like Xavier Raufer. If you were really interested in organized crime in general. You would at least know SOME things about one of the most powerful mafia's in the world. I mean, you did not even know about Behgjet Pacolli almost bringing down the Russian government. How ignorant can you possible be? Its alright to be ignorant but you try to make assumptions about the Albanian mafia which is not alright.

What books? Name any books that have been written specifically about Albanian organized crime. Like I said, I have a number of books that talk about Albanians among many other groups, but I've never found one specifically about them. At least not in English. If I did find one and could buy it, I would. It would be a good addition to my collection.

Lol, you feel sorry for me? A 30 year old who has no life, is not married, has no kids, no real career. And you feel sorry for me?

Yes, I do feel sorry for you because you are a 17 year kid (still wet behind the ears) who's stated goal in coming here is to "educate people about Albanian OC" (even though nobody really cares) and to "improve your debating skills" (which has turned this board into a neverending ethnic pissing contest). Once again, this all comes from the inferiority complex you obviously have about your ethnic group.

And that's the difference between you and I. I make statements about your character based on what I've seen here and what you yourself have said. I don't pretend to know things about you that I don't know, like you do me. You know nothing about my life but claim I have none. You have claimed I still live with my mom even though I haven't lived with my parents since I was 19. You claim I am a virgin even though I'm not. I had a chance last year to become married but it she wasn't the right girl. I'm pretty busy with my job but I still find time to date. There is still plenty of time to get married and have kids and all that. You make the empty threat that you will come out to my city and kick my ass. I give you the exact address of place near my home where we can meet and then you quickly drop the subect. Because, of course, how is a 17 year old going to get out here? Would mommy and daddy even buy you a plane ticket? Could you drive all the way out here when you admit you don't even have a personal car?

It could be possible because the Italians activities in Canada have not been proven to be at a height the Albanian Canadian criminals cant reach. They are involved in drugs? So is AOC in Canada. They are involved in fraud? So is AOC in Canada, they are involved in money laundering? So is AOC in Canada.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Albanian groups in Canada are active on the same levels as the Italians. The Italians have been active there for over half a century and are far more entrenched. You've provided nothing that shows the Albanian's narcotics operations can even begin to compare with the Italian's, either historically or present day. The Italians operations are far wider in scope and much more sophisticated. And until you can prove otherwise, nobody here is going to engage in your assumptions (based on wishful thinking) about what "could be." You are the one who is trying to make comparisons even though there is relatively little information about Albanians in the country as a whole and you have read almost nothing about the Italians. You simply want to say the Albanians match or exceed any group you can. THIS IS WHY EVERYONE HERE THINKS YOU ARE A FRAUD!

Maybe the CSIS and RCMP choose to target the Asians because they are racist. Maybe the Italians are not a big a target because the RCMP and CSIC likes them.

Here we go again. "Maybe" this, "maybe" that. Johnny has nothing but assumption and conjecture. Well, except bringing up various gangster movies that have nothing to do with the discussion.

Okay fair enough. But this only concludes what I have said. The Italians are most active in the East. I never said they werent in the West. I just said the East is their powerbase.

But you used it as the basis for your argument that the Asians and OMG's in Canada are more powerful.

Opinion.

Judging from his posts, Azure's "opinions" are more well researched than your's. Also, he doesn't have a history of agenda-driven research based on ethnic bias like you do.

Opinion.

Nope, that's the conventional wisdom at the present time.

You, Johnny, are the one who has made that claim that the Albanians, in only a short time, have come to somehow match the Italians who have been there for over half a century. Once again, you've obviously read next to nothing on the Italians and there is relatively little information about the Albanians. But a paragraph in a report here and a couple articles there is enough for you to claim that Albanians somehow match them.

Azure9920 wrote:No, that wasn't my intention at all. In the majority, if not all of those areas, Italians surpass Albanians.

The massive money laundering schemes in various Montreal and foreign banks, infiltration of RJR tobacco, various pump and dump, as well as other financial fraud I've outlined previously, extortion of various companies(westside provided a link to an incident that pops up frequently when researching Canadian OC), Loan sharking in Ontario and Quebec, Gambling, etc. The only racket the Albanians (had) over the Italians in terms of scope was the smuggling group responsible for 75% of Ontarian smuggled peoples- which has yet to be substantiated as Albanian anyway.

The situation of the Albanians in Canada is very minimal at best, and certainly nowhere near comparable with the Italian groups.

Good answer. But we both know it won't be enough for Johnny. He only believes what he wants to believe.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 6:24 pm

wrote: I doubt if any single group can match them except for maybe the Hell Angel's BC chapter.

As I explained earlier, no chapter in BC is at the very utmost of the Angels leadership- besides, there's no "BC" chapter. The Nomads within Quebec are considered the top leadership of the Hells Angels, with several powerful clubs following them, such as the Ontario examples I cited earlier, and I wanna say Halifax, but I'm not too sure Lennoxville maybe? It's somewhere out east, I'll ask.

And I really doubt that any Albanian single organization matches the Rizzuto family as Albanians are known to operate in small cells based on mistrust.

But I thought that there was no evidence to suggest that Italian OC surpasses Albanian OC in Canada? Lol.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 6:44 pm

But I thought that there was no evidence to suggest that Italian OC surpasses Albanian OC in Canada? Lol.

There isnt. Both groups are mentioned in all overview reports. There is no clear and big distinction between who is more powerful.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 6:54 pm

CheGuevara wrote:
But I thought that there was no evidence to suggest that Italian OC surpasses Albanian OC in Canada? Lol.
There isnt. Both groups are mentioned in all overview reports. There is no clear and big distinction between who is more powerful.

So, none of the examples I've cited mean absolutely anything? You've yet to provide any examples of Albanian organized crime in Canada besides the lone smuggling organization, and vague references to drug traffickers. As it stands, the Italian examples far exceed the Albanian organizations in size, sophistication and scope, unless you can prove otherwise. It's a waste of time to argue that BOC, let alone Albanians even come close to matching TOC in Canada.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 6:55 pm

CheGuevara wrote:There isnt. Both groups are mentioned in all overview reports. There is no clear and big distinction between who is more powerful.

Yes there is. But you think you can read a paragraph or two in a couple reports and make that distinction. Try reading even one book about Italian OC in Canada and then come back and make that statement. But we know you won't because that would destroy your happy assumptions.

Azure9920 wrote:So, none of the examples I've cited mean absolutely anything? You've yet to provide any examples of Albanian organized crime in Canada besides the lone smuggling organization, and vague references to drug traffickers. As it stands, the Italian examples far exceed the Albanian organizations in size, sophistication and scope, unless you can prove otherwise. It's a waste of time to argue that BOC, let alone Albanians even come close to matching TOC in Canada.

Johnny's wishful thinking > THE FACTS

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 6:58 pm

Yes there is. But you think you can read a paragraph or two in a couple reports and make that distinction. Try reading even one book about Italian OC in Canada and then come back and make that statement. But we know you won't because that would destroy your happy assumptions.

I need to read a book about the Italian mafia in the past in Canada to understand Italian OC in Canada in 2009? What book would you recommend?

Johnny's wishful thinking > THE FACTS

Sure. Why not?

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 7:01 pm

"The 6th Family" by Lee Lamothe and Adrian Humphreys is a good start.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 7:03 pm

Azure9920 wrote:"The 6th Family" by Lee Lamothe and Adrian Humphreys is a good start.

I recommended that book to him, as well as Bloodlines by Nicaso and Lamothe. But he won't bother to read them because it would interfere with his assumptions. No use in letting those pesky facts get in the way.

On a side note, Lamothe used to post on the Real Deal but hasn't in sometime. Miss the input he used to have.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 7:05 pm

CheGuevara wrote:I need to read a book about the Italian mafia in the past in Canada to understand Italian OC in Canada in 2009? What book would you recommend?

Besides the books mentioned above, read about the bust of the Rizzuto organization in Operation Colisee in November 2006. That alone was much bigger than any bust involving Albanians in Canada.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 7:30 pm

Besides the books mentioned above, read about the bust of the Rizzuto organization in Operation Colisee in November 2006. That alone was much bigger than any bust involving Albanians in Canada.

That has nothing to do with the Italians overall vs. Albanians overall in Canada.

I can go online right now and get a name of almost every Italian gangster in Canada. While I cannot get a name of one single Albanian gangster in Canada that is oprating as of right now. Why do you think that is?

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 7:48 pm

CheGuevara wrote: That has nothing to do with the Italians overall vs. Albanians overall in Canada.

No, but the books do paint a picture of the overall scope of the Rizzuto family operations.

Why do you think that is?

Because the Italians are far more active, and as a result more heavily investigated.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 7:55 pm

Because the Italians are far more active, and as a result more heavily investigated.

In Europe, Albanians are way more active but even there, I can name thousands of Italian mobsters by just clicking on google. It has nothing to do with who is more active. It has to do with the Italians label themselves and the Albanians do not. They are easier to target by law enforcement.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 7:58 pm

CheGuevara wrote:
Because the Italians are far more active, and as a result more heavily investigated.
In Europe, Albanians are way more active but even there, I can name thousands of Italian mobsters by just clicking on google. It has nothing to do with who is more active. It has to do with the Italians label themselves and the Albanians do not. They are easier to target by law enforcement.

In case you were wondering, we're talking about Canada, not Europe.

Yes, the Italian groups have a more established leadership and hierarchy, and as a result are often more sophisticated. The smaller groups are more mobile, and are less easily prosecuted.

However, in Canada, the Italian groups are exponentially more active than BOC groups, and draw far more investigation.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 8:06 pm

In case you were wondering, we're talking about Canada, not Europe.

Yes but I wanted you to see that the same thing goes on in Europe even though the Albanian mafia exceeds the Italians there. So one has to do with the other.

Yes, the Italian groups have a more established leadership and hierarchy, and as a result are often more sophisticated. The smaller groups are more mobile, and are less easily prosecuted.

However, in Canada, the Italian groups are exponentially more active than BOC groups, and draw far more investigation.

OKay, if you wish to say that. You can. I think IOC and BOC both have their strengths and weaknesses in various fields in which some they exceed each other.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 9th, 2009, 8:09 pm

OKay, if you wish to say that. You can. I think IOC and BOC both have their strengths and weaknesses in various fields in which some they exceed each other.

Could you provide an example of a field where BOC exceeds Italian OC, other than that smuggling group?

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 8:13 pm

Azure9920 wrote:
OKay, if you wish to say that. You can. I think IOC and BOC both have their strengths and weaknesses in various fields in which some they exceed each other.
Could you provide an example of a field where BOC exceeds Italian OC, other than that smuggling group?

I would say BOC exceeds IOC in Marijuana and Human trafficking as well as counterfeiting currency.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 8:31 pm

CheGuevara wrote:That has nothing to do with the Italians overall vs. Albanians overall in Canada.

Well genius, you're not going to find any book or report who's title is Italian OC vs. Albanian OC in Canada. You have to read about each group specifically and make a judgement. You have not done that in even the least degree. If you had read on the Rizzuto group alone, you wouldn't make the claim that Albanians could be as powerful as the Italians overall.

CheGuevara wrote:In Europe, Albanians are way more active but even there, I can name thousands of Italian mobsters by just clicking on google. It has nothing to do with who is more active. It has to do with the Italians label themselves and the Albanians do not. They are easier to target by law enforcement.

The Albanians are more active in Europe than the Italians? Only in your dreams. But of course, as pointed out below, Europe is not the topic of this discussion. Canada is.

Once again, the Italians do not name themselves. Their names are given to them by the media and law enforcement. For instance, the names of the five New York Mafia families came from the Committe hearings in the 1960's. Carlo Gambino, Vito Genovese, Tommy Lucchese, and Joseph Bonanno were the bosses at the time and the families were known by their names ever since. At that time, Joseph Profaci was boss of what would later become the Colombo family, named for Joseph Colombo.

Azure9920 wrote:In case you were wondering, we're talking about Canada, not Europe.

Yes, the Italian groups have a more established leadership and hierarchy, and as a result are often more sophisticated. The smaller groups are more mobile, and are less easily prosecuted.

However, in Canada, the Italian groups are exponentially more active than BOC groups, and draw far more investigation.

Notice how tries to bob and weave, changing the subject when he gets pinned down?

CheGuevara wrote:I would say BOC exceeds IOC in Marijuana and Human trafficking as well as counterfeiting currency.

Asians, the Chinese and Vietnamese especially, are the biggest traffickers of marijuna in the country. And, yes, the Chinese are also big counterfeiters. But once again, how does this prove they are more powerful than the Italians? You just keep saying this group is big in this or big in that without really explaining how and why the exceed the Italians.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 9th, 2009, 8:41 pm

Well genius, you're not going to find any book or report who's title is Italian OC vs. Albanian OC in Canada. You have to read about each group specifically and make a judgement. You have not done that in even the least degree. If you had read on the Rizzuto group alone, you wouldn't make the claim that Albanians could be as powerful as the Italians overall.

Have you read about Albanian organized crime enough to make that assumption?

The Albanians are more active in Europe than the Italians? Only in your dreams. But of course, as pointed out below, Europe is not the topic of this discussion. Canada is.

For the 100th time. I have the USDOJ, UNODC and Belgian Police all claiming the same thing I do so I am prone to believe it as well. What do you have? Exactly.

Once again, the Italians do not name themselves. Their names are given to them by the media and law enforcement. For instance, the names of the five New York Mafia families came from the Committe hearings in the 1960's. Carlo Gambino, Vito Genovese, Tommy Lucchese, and Joseph Bonanno were the bosses at the time and the families were known by their names ever since. At that time, Joseph Profaci was boss of what would later become the Colombo family, named for Joseph Colombo.

The Italians chose those names themselves. They also chose to rank and label themselves within their organizations as well [soldiers, captains, underbosses]. This is something Albanian immigrant criminals will never do. Maybe my generation [Albanians who grew up in America] will do that but so far, nothing like that has happened except for Rudaj.

Asians, the Chinese and Vietnamese especially, are the biggest traffickers of marijuna in the country. And, yes, the Chinese are also big counterfeiters. But once again, how does this prove they are more powerful than the Italians? You just keep saying this group is big in this or big in that without really explaining how and why the exceed the Italians.

I said BOC as in Balkan organized crime.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 9th, 2009, 8:52 pm

CheGuevara wrote:Have you read about Albanian organized crime enough to make that assumption?

It's not an "assumption." It's the conventional wisdom as it now stands. I've read most of what is currently available about Albanian OC in Canada in general, though it is relatively limited at this point. Plus what few example you have provided. And there is nothing to suggest in any way that the Albanians even begin to approach the Italians. But once again, the burden of proof is on you, not me. You're the one who is making the claim that Albanians, in only a few years, have somehow come to match the Italians. You know, just as Azure and I do, that this isn't true. You know there is no evidence to support this. But you WANT it to be true so you simply try to argue "Well, it could be true" and ask others to prove you wrong.

For the 100th time. I have the USDOJ, UNODC and Belgian Police all claiming the same thing I do so I am prone to believe it as well. What do you have? Exactly.

A hell of a lot more than excerpts from three reports you've cherrypicked through selective Google searches. Over 15 years of studying Italian OC in Europe, almost 15 years of studying Russian OC in Europe, and 7 or 8 years of studying Albanian OC in Europe. All of it, which has come from many sources besides the internet, tells me that the Albanians do not match either the Italians or Russians in Europe.

The Italians chose those names themselves. They also chose to rank and label themselves within their organizations as well [soldiers, captains, underbosses]. This is something Albanian immigrant criminals will never do. Maybe my generation [Albanians who grew up in America] will do that but so far, nothing like that has happened except for Rudaj.

The Mafia developed it's own rankings but it did not name the families. The names of the individual groups, like the "Gambino family" or the "Rizzuto family" are given to them by the law enforcement and the media based on who the top leaders are. And the Albanian groups certainly do have specific ranks amongst them. You think it's just a bunch of guys running around like chickens with their heads cut off with no leaders or lieutenants?

I said BOC as in Balkan organized crime.

With respect to marijuana trafficking that would be plausible because the Italians have always been involved in mainly heroin and cocaine. There isn't a lot of information about either group with respect to counterfeiting. But yet again you are bringing up single points that do nothing to prove your case that Albanians could match the Italians.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 10th, 2009, 10:08 am

CheGuevara wrote: I would say BOC exceeds IOC in Marijuana and Human trafficking as well as counterfeiting currency.

You'd be incorrect in counterfeit currency. Both OMG's and TOC have a significant grasp on the market in Central Canada, where the Asians, most notably Indo groups pose the biggest thread in British Colombia. Large scale OC groups like these are involved in the distribution, rather than production of the currency. About a third of counterfeit currency comes from Quebec, with nearly half(44%) from Ontario. The remainder being in the Pacific region(BC), accounting for 16%. The Atlantic and Northwestern regions make up 3-4% and less than 2% respectively. Going over the RCMP report on counterfeit currency, it would appear that the OMG(obviously the Hells Angels) have a significant portion of the racket.

A big threat is posed by independent, small groups who produce the currency. A couple big time busts in Winnipeg, Peel region(Mississauga) and York region(Markham, Thornhill). Several other ethnic groups, including a Tamil group, an unnamed Caribbean group with extensive ties to the counterfeiting market and a Bulgarian group were all busted in Ontario within the past year. All three were involved with currency involving upwards of $1 million dollars CDN.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ci-rc/reports ... ex-eng.htm

"Italian-based organized crime is involved in upper echelon importation and distribution of many types of drugs. Asian-based groups have maintained their role in heroin trafficking, have continued their expansion into the cocaine trade and have made considerable inroads into synthetic drug trafficking and marihuana cultivation. Colombian-based traffickers still control much of the cocaine trade in the cities of Eastern and Central Canada. Outlaw motorcycle gangs play a major role in the importation and large-scale distribution of cannabis, cocaine and synthetic drugs. Independent Canadian and foreign entrepreneurs are also important suppliers of drugs to the Canadian market."

Several of the largest marijuana related busts in Canadian- and North American history- have been organized and carried out by Italian groups. Vito Rizzuto alone has been indicted on charges of importing over 50 tonnes of hashish.

Ever hear of Michael DiCicco?

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 10th, 2009, 12:12 pm

It's not an "assumption." It's the conventional wisdom as it now stands. I've read most of what is currently available about Albanian OC in Canada in general, though it is relatively limited at this point. Plus what few example you have provided. And there is nothing to suggest in any way that the Albanians even begin to approach the Italians. But once again, the burden of proof is on you, not me. You're the one who is making the claim that Albanians, in only a few years, have somehow come to match the Italians. You know, just as Azure and I do, that this isn't true. You know there is no evidence to support this. But you WANT it to be true so you simply try to argue "Well, it could be true" and ask others to prove you wrong.

According to evidence available? Again, I can not take you're word being as you did not even know about the smuggling group indicted in 2006. You do not know of the simplest things of Albanian OC but somehow want credit for studying them even though you haven't.

A hell of a lot more than excerpts from three reports you've cherrypicked through selective Google searches. Over 15 years of studying Italian OC in Europe, almost 15 years of studying Russian OC in Europe, and 7 or 8 years of studying Albanian OC in Europe. All of it, which has come from many sources besides the internet, tells me that the Albanians do not match either the Italians or Russians in Europe.

LOL YOU ARE NOT SUITED TO SAY THAT! WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT GET!? The United Nations on Drugs and Crimes know more then you do. They have an entire organization based on the studies and conviction of criminals. The United States Department of Justice concurred with what was already said. Belgian Police Department released a Dossier for the public and it stated that the Albanian mafia is the most powerful leading in the sale of cocaine and heroin as well as human trafficking. You cannot simply throw three official reports away just like that.

The Mafia developed it's own rankings but it did not name the families. The names of the individual groups, like the "Gambino family" or the "Rizzuto family" are given to them by the law enforcement and the media based on who the top leaders are. And the Albanian groups certainly do have specific ranks amongst them. You think it's just a bunch of guys running around like chickens with their heads cut off with no leaders or lieutenants?

Some have a real organization with liutenants, soldiers, etc... Most do not. Most Albanian American crime groups act more like a criminal company, hiring people when needed, then a mafia. In Europe, it is different.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 10th, 2009, 3:21 pm

CheGuevara wrote:According to evidence available? Again, I can not take you're word being as you did not even know about the smuggling group indicted in 2006. You do not know of the simplest things of Albanian OC but somehow want credit for studying them even though you haven't.

I know enough about both groups to know that Albanians don't compare to the Italians in Canada. But once again, the burden of proof isn't on me. I didn't make the claim that Albanians can possibly match the Italians. YOU DID! And you did it without having studied hardly at all the Italian syndicates there. All you have studied is what you can find on Albanians on Google. Then you suddenly feel you are prepared to say that they could possibly match the Italians. This is proof of what I've been saying about the problem of how you research organized crime. It's simply about Albanians. You are just trying to find anything you can on them so you can feel you have a better argument to say thay can match or exceed this group or that group. But you don't research other groups! You try to question me about my research of Albanians when I'm not the one who made the fucking claim in the first place. If you think the Albanians can possibly match the Italians in Canada, PROVE IT! Otherwise, shut the hell up Johnny. I'm getting sick of this. "Russians and Chinese surpass the Italians on a global scale." Nevermind the fact that Johnny can't prove it. "Albanians could possibly match the Italians in Canada." Nevermind that Johnny can't prove it. "thewestside once said that only 12 LCN members have flipped." Nevermind Johnny can't prove it. "The usual cut from a soldier to a captain is 10-15%." Nevermind Johnny can't prove it. You see what I mean? Your BS just goes on and on and on.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 10th, 2009, 7:07 pm

Lol, IOC and AOC in Canada both have field in which they exceed each other. Like I said, AOC is more involved in the marijuana trade while Italians are more involved in cocaine and heroin. IOC is more involved in gambling and AOC is more involved in counterfeiting currency. This is why I say you are in no posititon to make a judgement between the two. Because there is no definite answer. You don't even know enough about Albanian OC to even talk about it, let alone compare it to other groups.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 10th, 2009, 7:38 pm

CheGuevara wrote:AOC is more involved in the marijuana trade
AOC is more involved in counterfeiting currency.

Did you read what I posted earlier, or did you just skim over it? I'd love to know how you support those claims, any reports or anything? Hell, even a short newspaper article? You're just talking out of your ass on this one, especially the counterfeiting.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 10th, 2009, 7:41 pm

CheGuevara wrote:Lol, IOC and AOC in Canada both have field in which they exceed each other. Like I said, AOC is more involved in the marijuana trade while Italians are more involved in cocaine and heroin. IOC is more involved in gambling and AOC is more involved in counterfeiting currency. This is why I say you are in no posititon to make a judgement between the two. Because there is no definite answer. You don't even know enough about Albanian OC to even talk about it, let alone compare it to other groups.

I think even you know what you are saying simply isn't true. All you know about Albanians is that they are emerging wholesale traffickers in marijauna and ecstasy. So what? Asians are far bigger in both respects. As are the OMG's. The Italian groups are active primarily in heroin and cocaine, but also deeply in marijuana and ecstasy. The Italian's narcotics operations are far bigger than the Albanians, stretching from South America to Europe to North America. The Italians are far higher up the criminal food chain, being involved in high level narcotics, money laundering, etc. They are the most well entrenched, being involved in various legitimate businesses like import/export companies, restaurants, real estate, bars, etc. They've had over a half century to become entrenched. They run huge illegal gambling and loansharking operations. One of the charges in the Colisee bust was the Rizzuto group laundering over $600 million in drug money. Another $200 million was frozen by authorities. One single bookmaking operation run by them took in $26 million in 18 months. Another grossed $500 million in 11 months. And this is only the Rizzuto group. To say nothing of the other Sicilian, Calabrian, and Itailan-American mafiosi in the country.

There is nothing you or I have seen that shows the Albanians can compare in any way. But since you think they can compare, prove it. All you've shown is that Albanians are involved in this crime and that crime. So what? Wholesalers of marijuana and ecstasy? So? Control 75% of the human trafficking from Canada to Michigan? That Albanian group was at least before it was busted. It's obvious to me, to Azure, and to everyone else here that you've got nothing. The only thing you are going on is pure wishful thinking. You wish the Albanians could match the Italians in Canada. But you know they don't. And just yesterday you said that it "was debatable" between the Italians and Albanians who was bigger in world wide scope. Even though you've said yourself many times before the Italians are bigger. But your story just keeps changing. It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Azure9920 wrote:Did you read what I posted earlier, or did you just skim over it? I'd love to know how you support those claims, any reports or anything? Hell, even a short newspaper article? You're just talking out of your ass on this one, especially the counterfeiting.

That's just it, Johnny can't prove it because he's just going by pure assumption. He's got nothing but wishful thinking.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 10th, 2009, 7:50 pm

No I did not skim over it. The reason I say Albanians are more involved [which thewestside "the Italian genius" said is very much possible since the Italians are mostly involved in cocaine and heroin in Canada] in marijuana trafficking is because I have seen the reports on them and the Italian groups are almost never mentioned. While reports mention Albanian groups and Asian groups the most. It is my assumption that the Albanians surpass the Italians in marijuana trafficking because of this. The Italians would at least get a mention if they were more involved.

As for counterfeiting. I read a report that the Albanian criminals in Detroit are heavily active in counterfeiting US/Canadian currency and are connected to fellow Albanian criminals on the other side of the border. This however, is only an assumption. I have yet to hear of IOC engaged havily in counterfeiting currecny. I will try to find the report for you as soon as possible.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » February 10th, 2009, 7:56 pm

CheGuevara wrote: As for counterfeiting. I read a report that the Albanian criminals in Detroit are heavily active in counterfeiting US/Canadian currency and are connected to fellow Albanian criminals on the other side of the border. This however, is only an assumption. I have yet to hear of IOC engaged havily in counterfeiting currecny. I will try to find the report for you as soon as possible.

"Both OMG's and TOC have a significant grasp on the market in Central Canada,", which makes up over 75% of the total counterfeit currency racket.

I'll ask again, do you know who Michael DiCicco is?

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 10th, 2009, 7:57 pm

CheGuevara wrote:No I did not skim over it. The reason I say Albanians are more involved [which thewestside "the Italian genius" said is very much possible since the Italians are mostly involved in cocaine and heroin in Canada] in marijuana trafficking is because I have seen the reports on them and the Italian groups are almost never mentioned. While reports mention Albanian groups and Asian groups the most. It is my assumption that the Albanians surpass the Italians in marijuana trafficking because of this. The Italians would at least get a mention if they were more involved.

As for counterfeiting. I read a report that the Albanian criminals in Detroit are heavily active in counterfeiting US/Canadian currency and are connected to fellow Albanian criminals on the other side of the border. This however, is only an assumption. I have yet to hear of IOC engaged havily in counterfeiting currecny. I will try to find the report for you as soon as possible.

The Italians are most involved in cocaine and heroin but that doesn't mean they aren't heavily involved in marijuana as well. You keep talking about the reports you've seen. You've barely seen anything. Just a couple reports here and there that have had a paragraph or two about Albanians. And from that you're content to claim that Albanians are bigger in marijuana and counterfeiting. You even admit that it is "your assumption." Hmmm, it's interesting how your little assumptions always seem to be in favor of the Albanians. And even if the Albanians were bigger in those two activities, how does that make them as powerful than the Italians overall? Try doing some research on the marijuana operations of Italian groups you lazy piece of shit. But I know, you expect others to provide you with all the evidence of any group that isn't Albanian. You just come on here, make some stupid statment based on nothing but assumptions, and then you challenge others to prove you wrong. Assumption after assumption after assumption. And that's because you've got nothing else. Just wishful thinking and wet dreams of Albanians being the most powerful everywhere.

Unread post by **CheGuevara** » February 10th, 2009, 8:16 pm

Okay you're an idiot. Honestly, loool, oh wow dude. Looooolollllllooollll.

Unread post by **DutchGangster69** » February 11th, 2009, 9:21 pm

I have to agree that IOC is way bigger here in Canada. There are over 500,000 Italians in Toronto alone. Every month you hear about something involving the mob in Montreal on the news.

Unread post by **thewestside** » February 12th, 2009, 12:07 am

DutchGangster69 wrote:I have to agree that IOC is way bigger here in Canada. There are over 500,000 Italians in Toronto alone. Every month you hear about something involving the mob in Montreal on the news.

And you would be right. Only a 17 year old Albanian organized crime fanboy like Johnny would try and argue that the Albanians could possibly match the Italians in the country. As he does so often, he is just going by wishful thinking. It wasn't too long ago that he read about a drug bust involving some Albanians in Winnipeg and declared that the Albanians had gone global. Now he's seen that the Albanians are mentioned in a couple Canadian law enforcement reports, where they are described as emerging wholesale marijuana and ecstasy traffickers and involved in other crimes like counterfeiting, and an article that an Albanian group was responsible for 75% of the human trafficking into Michigan (before it got busted anyway) and now he's ready to declare that the Albanians can match the Italians. Nevermind that he's done next to no research on the Italian groups in Canada. I mean, this is the guy who says the Caruana-Cuntrera clan is "overrated." He'll try to turn the tables on anyone who questions him by saying "Well, how much have you researched the Albanians in Canada?" Nevermind the fact that he is the one trying to make the ludicrous comparison in the first place. If he really thinks that Albanians an match the Italians (who have been active in the country for well over half a century) he should be able to prove why. But all he comes up with is, "There is nothing the Italians are involved in that the Albanians can't reach." Definitely one of the more ridiculous comments he has made on the forum here. But the more you read his posts, the less it will surprise you. He makes the same gradiose claims about the Albanians in both the U.S. and Europe.

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